Hamas attacking Israel

[Riddikulus]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Victim blaming?  Those kids are technically committing a crime.  If you were throwing stones at someone in downtown Vancouver, you would be arrested and thrown in jail.  You wouldn't be classified as a "victim"...

I don't think this is the best example. I am a grown man, I would deserve jail time for doing that. And that would certainly be considered justice, shooting a child dead for the same crime, that is simply barbaric. 

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Shoplifters aren't throwing stones at the VPD.

 

Why don't you try an experiment.  Go to downtown Vancouver tomorrow and start throwing stones at armed VPD officers.  Let me know how it goes for you...

Probably some pepper spray or a taser followed by an evening in jail.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

 

 

I never said the soldiers should be shooting them dead.  Re-read my post.  I agreed with @eeeeeeeeergh and said they should have used rubber bullets.

 

Soldiers murdering kids and families in cold blood happens all the time in war.  The US are experts at this.  Ask the families in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq about how the US soldiers treated them.  

 

I read a story awhile ago about some guys who entered the US military.  They said the reason why they joined the military was because it was legal to shoot and kill people.  That's the type of person you are dealing with.  How many of these ex-soldiers leave the military and end up in jail for murder?

[eeeeeeeeergh]

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I don't condone armed soldiers shooting kids and killing them because they are throwing stones.  Like you said, they could just use rubber bullets.

 

Having said that, it is up to the leaders to tell these kids not to do these kinds of things regardless of their anger as there could be dangerous repercussions.  Just because you are angry, that doesn't justify doing something stupid or trying to "poke the bear".  I've been angry at people lots of times.  That doesn't mean I went out and physically tried to hurt the people who angered me...

Theres a massive difference between the anger that you and i feel when we get mad about something, and the anger that comes from being evicted from your home, watching your friends and family die around you, and not having enough to eat, all because a group of foreigners decided to lay a claim to your home. They're throwing stones at soldiers, the same soldiers that defend settlers (in the west bank) as they throw stones at them. That raid in that west bank refugee camp (again, BEFORE October 7)- where the 15 year old was killed because he shouted "Special forces! Special forces!"- what do you think his parents, and his brothers and sisters are going to do? 

 

You and I are limited in the anger we can feel and how far we can take it because we have something to lose. But a lot of these people have nothing left to lose. 

 

The overarching point im trying to make and have been, in as many ways as I can, is to show the desperateness, the hopelessness, and the tragedy of the Palestinian condition. I can tell you with certainty that if my brother was that 15 year old kid who was killed for shouting "Special forces!" I would be doing a whole lot more than throwing stones. We dont feel what these kids feel because we've never experienced it. We can try to imagine it though, and if we really care about this horrible situation ending, we can't try to apply what we would do in our cushy situations to their lives. 

 

We need to understand why they're in this predicament to begin with. Why are they stateless refugees? Why are they dependent on Israel for food, water, medicine? 

 

These kids arent going to listen, and as far as I'm concerned, these kids could be doing a hell of a lot worse than throwing stones. Some definitely are sadly. 

 

I'm trying to illustrate that Israel's longstanding "shoot with live ammunition" response policy to kids throwing stones is one of many reasons why Palestinians are so angry, and why violence will probably continue against Israel until this inhuman behavior that again, has been going on for DECADES, stops. 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

 

EPs not justifying it, hes just trying to find the practical solution that results in 0 loss of life - which obviously is not to throw stones. 

 

However, the argument im making has nothing to do with that - its that decades of being treated like "human animals" eventually takes its toll and makes you less than rational, and I'm putting the responsibility on the country treating you like a "human animal". 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

EPs not justifying it, hes just trying to find the practical solution that results in 0 loss of life - which obviously is not to throw stones. 

 

However, the argument im making has nothing to do with that - its that decades of being treated like "human animals" eventually takes its toll and makes you less than rational, and I'm putting the responsibility on the country treating you like a "human animal". 

 

Yes, my friend, that is exactly what I am saying.  I never said it was right and justified to kill the kids.  Use rubber bullets or something else to stop them.  My main argument was for the kids to not "poke the bear".  Don't start something you can't finish or something where the other side has lethal means of retribution against you.

 

I understand the argument you are trying to make.  I get it.  I've never lived under those conditions so I don't have the first-hand experience.  As I already pointed out, some guys who enter the military do so for the sole purpose of being able to legally murder people.  Soldiers are alot different than police officers.  Most are good people.  But some are rogue and use their authority for evil purposes...

[Elias Pettersson]

30 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

 

Now I'm not trying to justify it but I am certainly also not trying to not justify it

 

Sorry, but my posts do not contradict each other, so your gotcha moment failed...

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

Yes I agree with you

 

I'm gonna tell you one more time so you really understand.  I NEVER justified the killing of children for throwing rocks...

[eeeeeeeeergh]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

Yes I agree with you.

 

I have all the time in the world for EP and people like him, hes digested every word and all his replies have shown that hes listening, even when I flew off the handle and got too emotional

 

 its just hard to really fathom until one has seen it firsthand. im genuinely heartened though by some things these past couple days- like that UN resolution calling for a ceasefire. Even though it didnt pass (US veto), the rest of the world was trying to do the right thing. 

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I hate to say this, but what kids parents would let their kids run up to fully armed soldiers and have them throw stones at them?  Does this sound normal to you?  Especially when they are in the middle of a war.  I'm not trying to justify these soldiers firing rounds back, but these kids shouldn't be anywhere near these soldiers and it is the parents fault for having them roam the streets like that and act like idiots...

 

Ok, so let me get this straight - we see a video of kids throwing stones, then we see a video of Israeli soldiers from far away. Then we hear a sound of a shot, not clear from where and by whom and even when. Then we see camera running towards a group of people leaning in a group. Then we see someone being carried into an ambulance without seeing any details and then an ambulance driving away. Did i get everything right? I’m going to use the exact same logic we just heard from the Palestinian side with regards of the hospital, only in my case, based on the actual details in the video, how can this be proof of anything? I can claim that it was a warning shot in the air and a person carried by the ambulance rolled his ankle. Will my version of the events be correct? I have no idea, but why is it any different from what they are trying to portray? And then you take completely generic response from the spokesperson as what?

 

EP, it’s not a reply to you. The author of the post is on my ignore list so the only reason i saw is because you quoted it.

[RomanPer]

And just to add a little colour to the whole “stone throwing is not serious” argument…

[eeeeeeeeergh]

5 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

And just to add a little colour to the whole “stone throwing is not serious” argument…

 

That was a massive slab thrown off a rooftop, not a pebble slung by a child

 

nice try though. 

[Optimist Prime]

Folks were warned many times over many days and persisted in personalizing this discussion. They will be missed.

[Canuck Surfer]

Someone was saying everyone loves Amanpour?  

 

Good interviewer, even if facts & reporting are not her strength.  Netanyahu should apologize.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

10 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

the leaders of Gaza have no other purpose than the destruction of Israel?

 

That goal is secondary, propaganda although reality nonetheless...

 

Hamas is a reflection of their leaders who wish to capture as much control as is possible!  Their real goal is to make money, be impervious to challengers.  Killing Israeli's is simply popular; helps them recruit & attract equally corrupt, morally and economically, allies.  Examples being Assad, Hezbollah. Assad killed more Syrian civilians than Israel has Palestinian civilians. In a much shorter period of time. Both are sad anyway, but one side has complete callous disregard for human life.  

 

I call for Israel to be leaders, adapt and comply with the rule of law.  They are indignant, allow issues that should not occur because they regard Hamas as terrorists? I do believe Hamas is significantly the bigger problem. Israel crushing Hamas has collateral damage they have to measure.  Yet Hamas kill civilians tactically, not as a by product.    

[Canuck Surfer]

23 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

This is just before & just Netanyahu's renaissance; 

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/02/1102728946/a-look-at-jewish-extremism-in-israel

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/18/far-right-israelis-shut-down-jerusalems-old-city-with-march

https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/4/5/israeli-forces-carry-out-violent-raid-at-al-aqsa-mosque

 

A look at history of Palestinian extremism in Jerusalem;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936–1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine

 

This battle has been violent long before today's times. The almost exact reverse of what is happening today happened in the 1920's & 1930's.  

 

I wish these had drawn some commentary?

 

It is just Google stuff but pretty profound.

[Canuck Surfer]

So I was talking with my wife.

 

@Optimist Prime will know this, as I mentioned to him before? We were so looking forward to this.

 

We are thinking of cancelling our trip to Saudi Arabia on the Red Sea, Jordan, Egypt, Israel & Lebanon next June.  A 24 day tour.

 

What are the odd's this just blows over?

[Mac]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

So I was talking with my wife.

 

@Optimist Prime will know this, as I mentioned to him before? We were so looking forward to this.

 

We are thinking of cancelling our trip to Saudi Arabia on the Red Sea, Jordan, Egypt, Israel & Lebanon next June.  A 24 day tour.

 

What are the odd's this just blows over?

I doubt it blows over by next June but it is possible I suppose.

 

I always question the common sense of people that end up being stuck in countries that go to war. There are usually tons of signs people may not want to visit certain areas during certain times.

 

You are really going to have to think about not going on that trip imo.

[Optimist Prime]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

So I was talking with my wife.

 

@Optimist Prime will know this, as I mentioned to him before? We were so looking forward to this.

 

We are thinking of cancelling our trip to Saudi Arabia on the Red Sea, Jordan, Egypt, Israel & Lebanon next June.  A 24 day tour.

 

What are the odd's this just blows over?

Speaking about the Saudi's, Egypt and Jordan, I would still plan on a trip 9 months from now. Lebannon likely as well and Israel maybe too. 

I would say it is too soon to cancel plans, but check the magic 8 ball next month. Not to say this is nothing, cuz this is big, but historically, 9 months later things are generally quiet again. This all depends on the next two weeks though, imo. 

[Optimist Prime]

I wonder if it would be possible to set up an arrangement where women and children are processed through the Rafah gate into Egypt, by the Egyption authorities, and strictly moved by bus to another crossing into Israel and strait to the relatively more peaceful West Bank? Obviously a massive undertaking but if even 200 thousand people can be moved out to relative safety quickly and more to follow over time, this might save lives?

[Optimist Prime]

Maybe old news, more than a 100 years old, but brushing up this morning and found this interesting.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_and_Palestine_campaign

 

Quote

The Sinai and Palestine campaign was part of the Middle Eastern theatre of World War I, taking place between January 1915 and October 1918. The British Empire, the French Third Republic, and the Kingdom of Italy fought alongside the Arab Revolt in opposition to the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire, and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. It started with an Ottoman attempt at raiding the Suez Canal in 1915 and ended with the Armistice of Mudros in 1918, leading to the cession of Ottoman Syria.

Fighting began in January 1915, when a German-led Ottoman force invaded the Sinai Peninsula, then occupied by the British as part of a "Protectorate" Protectorate of Egypt, to unsuccessfully raid the Suez Canal. After the Gallipoli campaign, British Empire veterans formed the Egyptian Expeditionary Force (EEF) and Ottoman Empire veterans formed the Fourth Army, to fight for the Sinai Peninsula in 1916. In January 1917 the newly formed Desert Column completed the recapture of the Sinai at the Battle of Rafa. This recapture of substantial Egyptian territory was followed in March and April by two EEF defeats on Ottoman territory, at the First and Second Battles of Gaza in southern Palestine.

After a period of stalemate in Southern Palestine from April to October 1917, General Edmund Allenby captured Beersheba from the III Corps. The Ottoman defences were captured by 8 November, and the pursuit began. EEF victories followed, at the Battle of Mughar Ridge, 10 to 14 November, and the Battle of Jerusalem, 17 November to 30 December. Serious losses on the Western Front in March 1918, during Erich Ludendorff's German spring offensive, forced the British Empire to send reinforcements from the EEF. The advance stalled until Allenby's force resumed the offensive during the manoeuvre warfare of the Battle of Megiddo in September. The successful infantry battles at Tulkarm and Tabsor created gaps in the Ottoman front line, allowing the pursuing Desert Mounted Corps to encircle the infantry fighting in the Judean Hills and fight the Battle of Nazareth and Battle of Samakh, capturing Afulah, Beisan, Jenin and Tiberias. In the process the EEF destroyed three Ottoman armies during the Battle of Sharon, the Battle of Nablus and the Third Transjordan attack, capturing thousands of prisoners and large quantities of equipment. Damascus and Aleppo were captured during the subsequent pursuit, before the Ottoman Empire agreed to the Armistice of Mudros on 30 October 1918, ending the Sinai and Palestine campaign. The British Mandate of Palestine and the Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon were created to administer the captured territories.

The campaign was generally not well known or understood during the war. In Britain, the public thought of it as a minor operation, a waste of precious resources which would be better spent on the Western Front, while the peoples of India were more interested in the Mesopotamian campaign and the occupation of Baghdad.^[7] Australia did not have a war correspondent in the area until Captain Frank Hurley, the first Australian Official Photographer, arrived in August 1917 after visiting the Western Front. Henry Gullett, the first Official War Correspondent, arrived in November 1917.^[8][9]

The long-lasting effect of this campaign was the Partitioning of the Ottoman Empire, when France won the mandate for Syria and Lebanon, while the British Empire won the mandates for Mesopotamia and Palestine. The Republic of Turkey came into existence in 1923 after the Turkish War of Independence ended the Ottoman Empire. The European mandates ended with the formation of the Kingdom of Iraq in 1932, the Lebanese Republic in 1943, the State of Israel in 1948, and the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan and Syrian Arab Republic in 1946.

 

Quote

Battle of Rafa, January 1917[edit]

Main article: Battle of Rafa

On the evening of 8 January 1917, mounted units of Desert Column including the Anzac Mounted Division, the Imperial Camel Corps Brigade, the 5th Mounted Yeomanry Brigade, No. 7 Light Car Patrol and artillery, rode out of El Arish to attack the next day 9 January, a 2,000 to 3,000-strong Ottoman Army garrison at El Magruntein also known as Rafa or Rafah.

Also on 9 January four British aircraft bombed the German aerodrome at Beersheba during the afternoon and in the evening, on the way back, saw a considerable Ottoman force near Weli Sheikh Nuran.^[123]

The British had reclaimed the northern section of the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula virtually to the frontier with the Ottoman Empire, but the new British government of David Lloyd George wanted more. The British Army in Egypt was ordered to go on the offensive against the Ottoman Army in part to support the Arab revolt which had started early in 1916, and to build on the momentum created by the victories won at Romani in August and Magdhaba in December 1916.^{[80][124][125]}

This next strategic objective was on the border of the British Protectorate of Egypt and the Ottoman Empire some 30 miles (48 km) distant, too far for infantry and so the newly formed Desert Column commanded by Chetwode was to attack the Ottoman position along the coast.^{[114][123][126]}

The Allied troops captured the town and the fortified position by nightfall with the loss of 71 killed and 415 wounded.^{[127][128][129][130]} The Ottoman garrison suffered heavily, with 200 killed and another 1,600 taken prisoner.^[131][132]

 

The Palestine campaign began early in 1917 with active operations resulting in the capture of Ottoman Empire territory stretching 370 miles (600 km) to the north, being fought continuously from the end of October to the end of December 1917. Operations in the Jordan Valley and into the Transjordan, fought between February and May 1918 were followed by the British occupation of the Jordan Valley while stalemated trench warfare continued across the Judan Hills to the Mediterranean Sea. The final Palestine offensive began in mid-September and the Armistice with the Ottoman Empire signed on 30 October 1918.^[141]

With the victory at Rafa, Murray had successfully accomplished all his and the War Office's objectives; he had secured the Suez Canal and Egypt from any possibility of a serious land attack and his forces controlled the Sinai Peninsula with a series of strongly fortified positions in depth, along a substantial line of communication based around the railway and pipeline, from Kantara on the Suez Canal to Rafa.^[142]

[Satchmo]

I'd welcome any move like that in the name of public safety.

 

There has been so much talk in this thread over which side is the worst.   It has been the Blame Day Thread.

 

I am so open to any side that attempts to be the best.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Satchmo
need more coffee. I meant to quote Optimist from two posts up.

[Optimist Prime]

Middle East 1871

 

Middle east 1914

[Optimist Prime]

middle east 1960

[Optimist Prime]

Gaza campaign[edit]

First Battle of Gaza, 26 March[edit]

Main article: First Battle of Gaza

Assault on Gaza 1917 showing Suez Canal defences and lines of communication across the Sinai Peninsula

The Ottoman Army gave up a small area of the southern Ottoman Empire to retire to Gaza on the shore of the Mediterranean Sea, holding large garrisons spread across the area to Beersheba; to the north east, east, and south east at Hareira, Tel el Sheria, Jemmameh, Tel el Negile, Huj and Beersheba.^{[176][177][178]}

While Desert Column's Anzac and partly formed Imperial Mounted Divisions stopped Ottoman reinforcements from pushing through to join the Ottoman garrison at Gaza, on 26 March, the 53rd (Welsh) Division supported by a brigade from the 54th (East Anglian) Division attacked the strong entrenchments to the south of the town.^{[176][179][180]} In the afternoon, after being reinforced by the Anzac Mounted Division, the all arms' attack quickly began to succeed. With most objectives captured, night stopped the attack and the withdrawal was ordered before the commanders were fully aware of the gains captured.^{[181][182][183]}

The government in London believed reports by Dobell and Murray indicating a substantial victory had been won and ordered Murray to move on and capture Jerusalem. The British were in no position to attack Jerusalem as they had yet to break through the Ottoman defences at Gaza.^[184][185]

Hiatus[edit]

We have moved camp from a hill above the village of Deir Beulah to a lonely spot in the grove by the shores of a sweet water lake and close to the sea. The trees and tangles of most luxuriant creepers and bushes conceal also some field batteries and hundreds of tons of shells and high explosives. Behind us are our heavies and cavalry and very near in front our entrenched infantry with whom we are in touch. Absurdly near to these are the Turkish positions, trenches and redoubts. As we crossed the plain and a little ridge of hills to my new position on Palm Sunday, [1 April] Turkish HE [High Explosive] shells were falling pretty freely, but in a seemingly rather aimless way and the same desultory fire kept up all Monday. Aircraft and anti-aircraft guns were busy nearly all the time keeping up a constant hubbub. The next day, Tuesday 3 April, the Turks attacked and I was lucky enough to have a sort of front seat for the whole show, including the repulse of their infantry onslaught.

— Joseph W. McPherson, Egyptian Camel Transport Corps^[186]

Surrounded by palms and olive groves, Deir el Belah is 5 miles (8.0 km) north east of Khan Yunis and 8 miles (13 km) south west of Gaza.^[187] From Deir el Belah active patrolling towards Sharia and Beersheba continued.^[188] Here the 1st Light Horse Brigade rejoined the Anzac Mounted Division, three Hotchkiss light machine guns were issued to every squadron, substantially increasing the firepower of the mounted infantry and training in their use and gas helmets was carried out.^[189] Deir el Belah became the headquarters of Eastern Force after railhead reached there on 5 April and the arrival of the 74th (Yeomanry) Division increased the force to four infantry divisions.^[190]

General Murray had created the impression that the First Battle of Gaza had ended better than it had and the defenders had suffered more, with the Chief of the Imperial General Staff William Robertson in London. Continuing inconclusive fighting in France resulted in Murray being encouraged on 2 April to begin a major offensive; to aim for Jerusalem, in the hope of raising morale.^{[191][Note 3]} By 18 April it was clear Nivelle's offensive had not succeeded, the newly democratic Russia could no longer be relied on to attack the German or Ottoman empires freeing them to reinforce Palestine and Mesopotamia, and the resumption of unrestricted German U-boat warfare was sinking 13 British ships a day when the average during 1916 had been only three.^[192] This misunderstanding of the actual position in southern Palestine "rest squarely on General Murray for, whether he intended it or not, the wording of the reports fully justifies the interpretation placed upon them."^[193]

Second Battle of Gaza, 17–19 April[edit]

Main article: Second Battle of Gaza

The First Battle of Gaza had been fought by the mounted divisions during an "encounter battle" when speed and surprise were emphasised. Then Gaza had been an outpost garrisoned by a strong detachment on the flank of a line stretching eastwards from the Mediterranean Sea. During the three weeks between the First and Second Battles of Gaza, the town was quickly developed into the strongest point in a series of strongly entrenched positions extending to Hareira 12 miles (19 km) east of Gaza and south east towards Beersheba.^[194][195] The Ottoman defenders not only increased the width and depth of their front lines, they developed mutually supporting strong redoubts on ideal defensive ground.^[196][197]

The construction of these defences changed the nature of the Second Battle of Gaza, fought from 17 to 19 April 1917, to an infantry frontal attack across open ground against well prepared entrenchments, with mounted troops in a supporting role.^[198][199] The infantry were strengthened by a detachment of eight Mark I tanks along with 4,000 rounds of 4.5-inch gas shells. The tanks were deployed along the front to give shelter to the infantry advancing behind them, but as the tanks became targets the infantry also suffered. Two tanks succeeded in reaching their objectives.^{[200][201][202]} Although the gas shells were fired during the first 40 minutes of the bombardment on a woodland area it appears they were ineffective.^[203]

The strength of the Ottoman fortifications and the determination of their soldiers defeated the EEF.^[196] The EEF's strength, which before the two battles for Gaza could have supported an advance into Palestine, was now decimated. Murray commanding the EEF and Dobell commanding Eastern Force were relieved of their commands and sent back to England.^[195][199]

Stalemate[edit]

Main article: Stalemate in Southern Palestine

From April to October 1917 the Ottoman and British Empire forces held their lines of defence from Gaza to Beersheba. Both sides constructed extensive entrenchments, which were particularly strong where the trenches almost converged, at Gaza and Beersheba. In the centre of the line, the defences at Atawineh, at Sausage Ridge, at Hareira, and at Teiaha supported each other. They overlooked an almost flat plain, devoid of cover, making a frontal attack virtually impossible. The trench lines resembled those on the Western Front, except they were not so extensive, and they had an open flank.^{[204][205][206]}

Shellal road

Both sides reorganised their armies in Palestine during the stalemate and appointed new commanders. The Yildirim Army Group (also known as Thunderbolt Army Group and Army Group F) was established in June, commanded by the German Empire General Erich von Falkenhayn.^[207] General Archibald Murray was sent back to England, replaced by Edmund Allenby in June to command the Egyptian Expeditionary Force. Allenby created two separate headquarters, one stayed in Cairo to administer Egypt, while his battle headquarters was established near Khan Yunis. He also reorganised the force into two infantry and one mounted corps.^{[208][209][210]} By 28 October 1917 the ration strength of the EEF fighting troops was 50,000. There were a further 70,000 unattested Egyptians.^[211]

Raid on Ottoman railway[edit]

Part of 15 miles of railway line blown up in May 1917 by the Anzac and Imperial Mounted Divisions' and the Imperial Camel Corps Brigade' engineers assisted by troopers.

Main article: Raid on Asluj to Hafir el Auja railway

The main line of communication south from Beersheba to Hafir el Aujah and Kossaima was attacked on 23 May 1917 when substantial sections of the railway line were demolished by Royal Engineers of the Anzac and Imperial Mounted Divisions. This raid was covered by the two mounted divisions including a demonstration towards Beersheba.^[212]

Battle of Buqqar Ridge[edit]

Main article: Battle of Buqqar Ridge

The occupation of Karm by the Allies on 22 October 1917 created a major point for supply and water for the troops in the immediate area. For the Ottoman forces, the establishment of a railway station at Karm placed the defensive positions known as the Hareira Redoubt and Rushdie System which formed a powerful bulwark against any Allied action under threat.^{[citation needed][dubious – discuss]}

To forestall this threat, General Erich von Falkenhayn, the Commander of the Yildirim Group, proposed a two phase attack. The plan called for a reconnaissance in force from Beersheba on 27 October, to be followed by an all out attack launched by the 8th Army from Hareira. This second phase was ironically scheduled to occur on the morning of 31 October 1917, the day when the Battle of Beersheba began.^{[citation needed]}