Playoff Beered Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) . Edited October 23, 2023 by Playoff Beered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 11 minutes ago, moosehead said: I think the truth is not that clear. sorry - peace deals previous that failed... 2002-2003, an Israeli researcher conducted 20 in-depth interviews with a broad range of Israeli negotiators who had participated in the Oslo peace process. He found that they held very different perceptions of what had caused the failure of the process and where the blame for that failure should be placed. Four of the officials felt that Israel deserves most of the blame; nine said that the failure was mostly or entirely the fault of the Palestinians while seven laid the blame on both parties. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/who-killed-the-peace-process So, you have no problem with suicide bombing of civilian targets as a response to negotiations offer, whatever that offer might be? Got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 So, will return claim (or at least getting their property back) also apply to all the Jews that were expelled (often bloody) from all the Muslim countries (see map below for quantities)? Asking for a friend… 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, RomanPer said: So, you have no problem with suicide bombing of civilian targets as a response to negotiations offer, whatever that offer might be? Got it. Any form of violence is disgusting and horrific. I never support violence of any kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 6 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said: No it's not. Totally irrelevant to the point. Plus, the whole “their land” argument is pretty weak, especially knowing the history before 1947. It’s really convenient to choose an arbitrary day in history as a reference point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoff Beered Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Odd. said: It’s their land.. also Arab doesn’t mean they’re all the same people. They all have different cultures and lifestyles… also that map is blatantly false. Majority of those African countries aren’t Arab majority. No it's not. Totally irrelevant to the point. No it's not. Yes they are. Demographics of the Arab world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Arab_world Edited October 23, 2023 by Playoff Beered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 1 minute ago, moosehead said: Any form of violence is disgusting and horrific. I never support violence of any kind. Yet, you seem to be singling out only Israeli side of violence. To be clear - I absolutely don’t support the crazies in settlements that attack Palestinian kids. But the situation in Israel is a lot more complex than you are trying to portray. If you re-read all your posts, it would seem that all that needs to happen for peace is for Israel to put down their weapons. Well, we all saw on October 7th what happens with Jews who put down their weapons. And if you think it’s only Hamas - i have news for you. People who followed Hamas fighters to steal property from the Israelis, people who carried Israeli hostages to Gaza were in their majority civilians and not Hamas affiliated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, RomanPer said: So, will return claim (or at least getting their property back) also apply to all the Jews that were expelled (often bloody) from all the Muslim countries (see map below for quantities)? Asking for a friend… I'm late to the party here but I'm gonna dive in. (What better to do on a Sunday night with no Canucks games on eh.) Are you saying that since those of Jewish faith were expropriated in those regions makes Israeli expropriation of current Palestinians... justified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 5 minutes ago, Canuckle said: I'm late to the party here but I'm gonna dive in. (What better to do on a Sunday night with no Canucks games on eh.) Are you saying that since those of Jewish faith were expropriated in those regions makes Israeli expropriation of current Palestinians... justified? No, I am saying that you have to look at the entire picture of the conflict, not blame everything on Israel. I am also saying that since Palestinians keep on insisting on the “right of return” (only somehow there were 700,000 refugees but over 5,000,000 now want to claim the right of return), then Jews expelled from the Muslim countries and their descendants have a right for at least reimbursement for lost property (doubt any of them want to return). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) 38 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Yet, you seem to be singling out only Israeli side of violence. To be clear - I absolutely don’t support the crazies in settlements that attack Palestinian kids. But the situation in Israel is a lot more complex than you are trying to portray. If you re-read all your posts, it would seem that all that needs to happen for peace is for Israel to put down their weapons. Well, we all saw on October 7th what happens with Jews who put down their weapons. And if you think it’s only Hamas - i have news for you. People who followed Hamas fighters to steal property from the Israelis, people who carried Israeli hostages to Gaza were in their majority civilians and not Hamas affiliated. If Israel were to put down their weapons, they would be obliterated from the earth. Also, doesn't Israel have a peace deal in place with pretty much every Arab country other than the ones that house terrorist organizations? Egypt, UAE, Bahrain, Jordan, Sudan, Morocco, Oman. They were also working on one with Saudi Arabia before the terrorist attacks on October 7 (nice timing by Hamas). Maybe if the other Arab countries got rid of their terrorist organizations, then they could also make peace with Israel, including the Palestinians... Edited October 23, 2023 by Elias Pettersson 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 23 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: If Israel were to put down their weapons, they would be obliterated from the earth. Also, doesn't Israel have a peace deal in place with pretty much every Arab country other than the ones that house terrorist organizations? Egypt, UAE, Bahrain, Jordan, Sudan, Morocco, Oman. They were also working on one with Saudi Arabia before the terrorist attacks on October 7 (nice timing by Hamas). Maybe if the other Arab countries got rid of their terrorist organizations, then they could also make peace with Israel, including the Palestinians... Completely agree. The reason i only bring up Egypt and Jordan is because these are long, time-proven deals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) 48 minutes ago, RomanPer said: No, I am saying that you have to look at the entire picture of the conflict, not blame everything on Israel. I am also saying that since Palestinians keep on insisting on the “right of return” (only somehow there were 700,000 refugees but over 5,000,000 now want to claim the right of return), then Jews expelled from the Muslim countries and their descendants have a right for at least reimbursement for lost property (doubt any of them want to return). And what happened in those countries has nothing to do with the state of Israel and what they are doing. I'm still trying to figure out why you even bought it up if it wasn't to in fact argue it justifies what the Israeli state is doing to Palestinians. Spoiler alert: it doesn't. When I see cases of 100% American citizens moving to Israel, kicking Palestinian families out of their homes into the streets in state sanctioned, legally justified acts, we know the score. Just imagine if our Indigenous populations in Canada became the dominant culture and ruling class (aided with military arms from the US no less) and started expropriating everyone currently living in their traditional territories. Your house in Van? Yoink. A First Nations family is moving in. Perfectly legal and even morally justified act with their state monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force. Having said that, I don't support jews being persecuted or expropriated anymore than I do our own Indigenous populations. And yes, I think people should absolutely be reimbursed in some way shape or form for the horrendous acts committed against them over the generations regardless of region, particular faith, "race", or ethnic background. Easier said than done though. And how many times over human history has this happened. Opening a nice big can of worms there. Edited October 23, 2023 by Canuckle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Canuckle said: And what happened in those countries has nothing to do with the state of Israel and what they are doing. I'm still trying to figure out why you even bought it up if it wasn't to in fact argue it justifies what the Israeli state is doing to Palestinians. Spoiler alert: it doesn't. When I see cases of 100% American citizens moving to Israel, kicking Palestinian families out of their homes into the streets in state sanctioned, legally justified acts, we know the score. Just imagine if our Indigenous populations in Canada became the dominant culture and ruling class (aided with military arms from the US no less) and started expropriating everyone currently living in their traditional territories. Your house in Van? Yoink. A First Nations family is moving in. Perfectly legal and even morally justified act with their state monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force. Having said that, I don't support jews being persecuted or expropriated anymore than I do our own Indigenous populations. And yes, I think people should absolutely be reimbursed in some way shape or form for the horrendous acts committed against them over the generations regardless of region, particular faith, "race", or ethnic background. Easier said than done though. You are oversimplifying everything. The number of “100% American citizens moving to Israel, kicking Palestinian families out of their homes” is so minuscule, it doesn’t even register on any type of statistic. But it’s a very cool motto to throw out there and wave on the protest flags. I already explained why i brought it up. Sorry, i know my explanation doesn’t fit into your view of the world, but it’s really entirely your problem. Edited October 23, 2023 by RomanPer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 1 hour ago, RomanPer said: Yet, you seem to be singling out only Israeli side of violence. To be clear - I absolutely don’t support the crazies in settlements that attack Palestinian kids. But the situation in Israel is a lot more complex than you are trying to portray. If you re-read all your posts, it would seem that all that needs to happen for peace is for Israel to put down their weapons. Well, we all saw on October 7th what happens with Jews who put down their weapons. And if you think it’s only Hamas - i have news for you. People who followed Hamas fighters to steal property from the Israelis, people who carried Israeli hostages to Gaza were in their majority civilians and not Hamas affiliated. No the violence perpetuated by both sides in this conflict needs to cease. It is not helpful by either side. Israel has a great deal more power in terms of resources and USA support so it is IMPERATIVE Israel leads meaningful peace negotiates as soon as possible. This region needs peace. No more innocent civilian deaths. 75 year conflict is far too long. Lets see compromises and Peace in the region. Moderate leaders on both sides are needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Just now, moosehead said: No the violence perpetuated by both sides in this conflict needs to cease. It is not helpful by either side. Israel has a great deal more power in terms of resources and USA support so it is IMPERATIVE Israel leads meaningful peace negotiates as soon as possible. This region needs peace. No more innocent civilian deaths. 75 year conflict is far too long. Lets see compromises and Peace in the region. Moderate leaders on both sides are needed. I wholeheartedly agree. Please show me who Israel should be negotiating with. Specifically, not some generic “Palestinian people”. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, RomanPer said: The number of “100% American citizens moving to Israel, kicking Palestinian families out of their homes” is so minuscule, it doesn’t even register on any type of statistic. You missed the point of the example. If doesn't matter how many come from the US to do it. Either way it's a legally sanctioned and morally justified act enforced by the state, and that tells you everything need to know here. The fact that it happens at all is the issue. Once again, what if our Indigenous populations became the dominant culture, ruling class and did that to people that expropriated and committed genocide to their ancestors? Justified act? Not so much. 14 minutes ago, RomanPer said: I already explained why i brought it up. Sorry, i know my explanation doesn’t fit into your view of the world, but it’s really entirely your problem. Actually it's your problem. I'm calling it out as completely irrelevant to bring up. Because it is. What happened in other regions, while horrible, does not justify what the state of Israel doing it to Palestinians in that region. Edited October 23, 2023 by Canuckle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 8 minutes ago, RomanPer said: I wholeheartedly agree. Please show me who Israel should be negotiating with. Specifically, not some generic “Palestinian people”. Stopping with the bulldozers and kicking people from their homes in general is probably a good start. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, Canuckle said: You missed the point of the example. If doesn't matter how many come from the US to do it. Either way it's a legally sanctioned and morally justified act enforced by the state, and that tells you everything need to know here. Once again, what if our Indigenous populations became the dominant culture, ruling class and did that to people that expropriated and committed genocide to their ancestors? Justified act? Not so much. Actually it's your problem. I'm calling it out as completely irrelevant to bring up. Because it is. What happened in other regions, while horrible, does not justify what the state of Israel doing it to Palestinians in that region. Again, I didn’t bring it up to justify anything. It’s part of a very complex discussion. Part of the peace agreement of Palestinians insist on is the “right of return”. This was the only purpose of my post. You are trying to connect it to something completely different. That’s why it’s your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, Canuckle said: Stopping with the bulldozers and kicking people from their homes in general is probably a good start. Cool story, this is my last reply to you as I try not to have conversations with people who only use slogans and catchwords. Have a good life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 10 minutes ago, RomanPer said: I wholeheartedly agree. Please show me who Israel should be negotiating with. Specifically, not some generic “Palestinian people”. First option: achieving reconciliation, returning the PA to rule, with the participation of Hamas Second option: reaching a long-term truce with Israel Third option: an independent Gaza entity Conclusion It is clear, from the review of the alternatives above, that the future of the Gaza Strip is difficult to design without Hamas being a key actor. It goes without saying that Israel, the principal decision maker regarding the Gaza Strip, is not interested in signing a peace agreement with Hamas. But Israel is inclined to pursue the option of a long-term truce, lasting perhaps for 15 to 20 years. This option is in line with its strategic interest to preserve the Palestinian division and prevent the return of the Palestinian Authority to Gaza. Furthermore, maintaining a state of hostility is in the interest of both parties, Israel and Hamas. Each uses this hostility to justify its policies. Thus, Israel, on the one hand, attacks the Gaza Strip from time to time and pursue an ongoing policy of assassinations and detentions while on the other hand conducts indirect negotiations with Hamas in order to curb its power and assign its jurisdiction to ‘internal police’. This is a balanced equation, with carefully thought-out outputs that support the scenario of stalling. Immediately after the last round of war between Israel and the Gaza Strip, which lasted for 11 days, the coalition government, led by Naftali Bennett, resumed its hints at “security in exchange for calm” with limited economic improvements, in the context of emphasizing the continuation of the division and preventing the collapse of the rule of Hamas. Successive Israel governments have succeeded in convincing the Israeli public that the continued separation between the West Bank and Gaza is in Israel’s interest and is the most appropriate solution for it. Israel also realizes the need and desire of Hamas to continue ruling Gaza. While the ideal option for Palestinians is to achieve reconciliation between Ramallah and Gaza, which would preserve the two-state solution, the most likely scenario in the next five years is the continuation of the status quo, with no viable alternative. It is the scenario that does not anger the PA and will not find serious objection from Egypt and Jordan; it is the option that has become familiar to the region. https://palthink.org/en/2021/09/11198/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 4 minutes ago, moosehead said: First option: achieving reconciliation, returning the PA to rule, with the participation of Hamas Second option: reaching a long-term truce with Israel Third option: an independent Gaza entity Conclusion It is clear, from the review of the alternatives above, that the future of the Gaza Strip is difficult to design without Hamas being a key actor. It goes without saying that Israel, the principal decision maker regarding the Gaza Strip, is not interested in signing a peace agreement with Hamas. But Israel is inclined to pursue the option of a long-term truce, lasting perhaps for 15 to 20 years. This option is in line with its strategic interest to preserve the Palestinian division and prevent the return of the Palestinian Authority to Gaza. Furthermore, maintaining a state of hostility is in the interest of both parties, Israel and Hamas. Each uses this hostility to justify its policies. Thus, Israel, on the one hand, attacks the Gaza Strip from time to time and pursue an ongoing policy of assassinations and detentions while on the other hand conducts indirect negotiations with Hamas in order to curb its power and assign its jurisdiction to ‘internal police’. This is a balanced equation, with carefully thought-out outputs that support the scenario of stalling. Immediately after the last round of war between Israel and the Gaza Strip, which lasted for 11 days, the coalition government, led by Naftali Bennett, resumed its hints at “security in exchange for calm” with limited economic improvements, in the context of emphasizing the continuation of the division and preventing the collapse of the rule of Hamas. Successive Israel governments have succeeded in convincing the Israeli public that the continued separation between the West Bank and Gaza is in Israel’s interest and is the most appropriate solution for it. Israel also realizes the need and desire of Hamas to continue ruling Gaza. While the ideal option for Palestinians is to achieve reconciliation between Ramallah and Gaza, which would preserve the two-state solution, the most likely scenario in the next five years is the continuation of the status quo, with no viable alternative. It is the scenario that does not anger the PA and will not find serious objection from Egypt and Jordan; it is the option that has become familiar to the region. https://palthink.org/en/2021/09/11198/ This was written in 2021. After October 7th option 1 is not an option and will never be an option. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 5 minutes ago, moosehead said: First option: achieving reconciliation, returning the PA to rule, with the participation of Hamas Second option: reaching a long-term truce with Israel Third option: an independent Gaza entity Conclusion It is clear, from the review of the alternatives above, that the future of the Gaza Strip is difficult to design without Hamas being a key actor. It goes without saying that Israel, the principal decision maker regarding the Gaza Strip, is not interested in signing a peace agreement with Hamas. But Israel is inclined to pursue the option of a long-term truce, lasting perhaps for 15 to 20 years. This option is in line with its strategic interest to preserve the Palestinian division and prevent the return of the Palestinian Authority to Gaza. Furthermore, maintaining a state of hostility is in the interest of both parties, Israel and Hamas. Each uses this hostility to justify its policies. Thus, Israel, on the one hand, attacks the Gaza Strip from time to time and pursue an ongoing policy of assassinations and detentions while on the other hand conducts indirect negotiations with Hamas in order to curb its power and assign its jurisdiction to ‘internal police’. This is a balanced equation, with carefully thought-out outputs that support the scenario of stalling. Immediately after the last round of war between Israel and the Gaza Strip, which lasted for 11 days, the coalition government, led by Naftali Bennett, resumed its hints at “security in exchange for calm” with limited economic improvements, in the context of emphasizing the continuation of the division and preventing the collapse of the rule of Hamas. Successive Israel governments have succeeded in convincing the Israeli public that the continued separation between the West Bank and Gaza is in Israel’s interest and is the most appropriate solution for it. Israel also realizes the need and desire of Hamas to continue ruling Gaza. While the ideal option for Palestinians is to achieve reconciliation between Ramallah and Gaza, which would preserve the two-state solution, the most likely scenario in the next five years is the continuation of the status quo, with no viable alternative. It is the scenario that does not anger the PA and will not find serious objection from Egypt and Jordan; it is the option that has become familiar to the region. https://palthink.org/en/2021/09/11198/ The only peace deals that Israel has been able to sign off on so far are with the countries who do not have a terrorist organization within their country. Find a way to eliminate Hamas from the equation and that would be your #1 option on your list... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Regarding “who was there first” - there’s an Israeli joke on the subject. Just remember - it’s a joke. ”UN summit, participate both delegations of Israel and Palestinians. Israeli representative starts the speech: ”At the beginning of my speech, I would like to tell an old Jewish story. When Moses brought Jews from Egypt to the land of Israel, he found a nice lake. As he was tired after a long walk, he took off his clothes and jumped into the cooling water of the lake. However, when he stepped out of the lake, he realized that his clothes were stollen by Palestinians”. Palestinian representative yells angrily: “It’s a lie! There were no Palestinians there at that time!!!” Israeli representative: “And on that note I would like to start my official speech” 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 14 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Again, I didn’t bring it up to justify anything. It’s part of a very complex discussion. Part of the peace agreement of Palestinians insist on is the “right of return”. This was the only purpose of my post. You are trying to connect it to something completely different. That’s why it’s your problem. Connect it to what "different" exactly? All the things I'm saying are very much connected to the underlying issues with the conflict in the region and the Israeli state writ large. Appears to me you're simply unfamiliar with the argument is all. For if you were familiar, you wouldn't be saying that. And frankly if we aren't talking about that stuff, we aren't talking about much of anything. "Right of return." Yeah. To where exactly. How'd that happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 15 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Cool story, this is my last reply to you as I try not to have conversations with people who only use slogans and catchwords. Have a good life. Deflect deflect deflect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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