Hamas attacking Israel

[Optimist Prime]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

See @Optimist Prime post above - large number of them are falling in the fields. But those that fall in the cities cause a lot of damage. The media just doesn’t report about it as much. Plus, the primary difference is that all the new buildings in Israel include special sealed rooms in every apartment that can withstand quite a blast and can be used as a personal bomb shelter and all the old buildings have special common bomb shelters. The moment there’s a launch out of Gaza, potential target communities are warned and people rush to the nearby bomb shelter, hence minimizing human casualties.

It is sad that an entire nation needs bomb proof rooms in the building code. Terribleness upon terribleness.

[Canuckle]

3 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

It is sad that an entire nation needs bomb proof rooms in the building code. Terribleness upon terribleness.

 

Although it's sure nice to have such protective luxuries on that side of the fence, isnt it?...all things considered.

 

I wonder, what do Palestinians have to protect themselves when such overt or covert acts happen to them?  Not that I'm guesskng.

[the destroyer of worlds]

I'll just leave this here.  If it's been posted already, that's ok

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/police-find-no-evidence-of-a-hate-crime-in-murder-of-detroit-synagogue-leader

Police find no evidence of a hate crime in murder of Detroit synagogue leader

[Optimist Prime]

3 hours ago, moosehead said:

 

Sounds like a great life.  Maybe a negotiated peace would be beneficial to both sides..... ?

If the regular palestinian people of Gaza were at the table to negotiate with Israel peace would already have broken out. Hamas are murderous villainous terrorist scum who care not one bit for even their own peoples in Gaza. They are happy to force anyone to be a martyr for the ultimate destruction of Israel, as that is their, and i can't stress this enough: their LITERAL GOAL of the existence of the group. 

 

If it was that easy, dont you think it would have been accomplished by now?

[Canuckle]

5 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

I'll just leave this here.  If it's been posted already, that's ok

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/police-find-no-evidence-of-a-hate-crime-in-murder-of-detroit-synagogue-leader

Police find no evidence of a hate crime in murder of Detroit synagogue leader

 

"Police Chief James E. White said Sunday that investigators were working with the FBI to analyze forensic evidence to piece together a timeline leading to Woll’s death. That included interviewing “individuals with information that may further this investigation.”

 

White, who had asked the public not to draw quick conclusions, added that “no evidence has surfaced suggesting that this crime was motivated by antisemitism.” He said more information would come Monday."

 

So, no evidence... as of yet. Doesnt neccesarily mean they won't find any later. Just nothing pointing that way at the moment.

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

When Ehud Barak (sorry, got confused and initially wrote Olmert - Olmert was the mayor of Jerusalem ay that time) offered Arafat 97% of everything Arafat wanted, including discussion on the return of the refugees, Arafat went back to the Ramallah without accepting the offer and answered with a wave of suicide bombings in Israeli busses. I know, I lived in Israel at the time. One of these busses blew up 300 meters in front of my car and the only reason I wasn't parked on a red light next to it at the time of the explosion was because my son woke up when I was leaving and called me to give me a hug before I leave.

I left Haifa in a UN truck and before i got three blocks a vender cart near the beach was blown to bits along with several folks, I didn't learn of it until I got back to my guys, but at a red light i was in a slow lane while a guy on a scooter was in the fast lane in front of a taxi at the same light. The taxi was directly beside me. The scooter guy got off his bike, screaming in arabic at the back seat passenger ofthe taxi, and pulled out a pistol when I leaned on my horn to get his attention and he suddenly noticed a big white truck with giant black UN letters on it, the light changed and he got back on the scooter and sped off through a maze of cars to the left. I thought it was freaking odd, but no one was hurt and it resolved fast, with little to no time to think. Only when i got briefed on the Haifa explosion did I put two and two together but I could only remember two characters on the plate. It happened in a blink of an eye and I was just bringing a cheese pizza and a meat pizza back to the boys to make a meat and cheese pizza sandwich out of. This is the cliffs notes version, just the parts that matter, plus pizza. It is a very volitile place. I don' think there will ever be a 'land back' situation, or a 'right of return' but I am hopeful for the future of the West Bank. Used to be part of the idea of Transjordan, wouldn't be too hard to nationalize it. I am not sold completely on the two state solution but after the terror groups are weeded out, the good palestinian people will need a path to peace and prosperity, like everyone else.  

((please keep to the broad strokes of the topic and discussion and stay well clear of personal arguments. We here in the hockey community are not at war with each other))

[RomanPer]

11 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I left Haifa in a UN truck and before i got three blocks a vender cart near the beach was blown to bits along with several folks, I didn't learn of it until I got back to my guys, but at a red light i was in a slow lane while a guy on a scooter was in the fast lane in front of a taxi at the same light. The taxi was directly beside me. The scooter guy got off his bike, screaming in arabic at the back seat passenger ofthe taxi, and pulled out a pistol when I leaned on my horn to get his attention and he suddenly noticed a big white truck with giant black UN letters on it, the light changed and he got back on the scooter and sped off through a maze of cars to the left. I thought it was freaking odd, but no one was hurt and it resolved fast, with little to no time to think. Only when i got briefed on the Haifa explosion did I put two and two together but I could only remember two characters on the plate. It happened in a blink of an eye and I was just bringing a cheese pizza and a meat pizza back to the boys to make a meat and cheese pizza sandwich out of. This is the cliffs notes version, just the parts that matter, plus pizza. It is a very volitile place. I don' think there will ever be a 'land back' situation, or a 'right of return' but I am hopeful for the future of the West Bank. Used to be part of the idea of Transjordan, wouldn't be too hard to nationalize it. I am not sold completely on the two state solution but after the terror groups are weeded out, the good palestinian people will need a path to peace and prosperity, like everyone else.  

((please keep to the broad strokes of the topic and discussion and stay well clear of personal arguments. We here in the hockey community are not at war with each other))

You should put the bolder piece into triple parentheses, not double . Not sure if everyone will understand the reference though lol. (((Roman)))

[Optimist Prime]

6 hours ago

Source

Hezbollah announces the death of one of its members, bringing their number since the start of the Israeli bombing to 27

[Canuckle]

9 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Hamas are murderous villainous terrorist scum who care not one bit for even their own peoples in Gaza. They are happy to force anyone to be a martyr for the ultimate destruction of Israel, as that is their, and i can't stress this enough: their LITERAL GOAL of the existence of the group. 

 

If it was that easy, dont you think it would have been accomplished by now?

 

And what is the literal goal of the Israeli state. Last time I checked they weren't stopping their own legally and morally sanctioned overt and covert acts of expropriation of Palestinians in the region. The Israeli state has  rightfully earned the moniker "terrorist" just the same. This whole "them over there, but not us" shit is for the birds.  Afterall, people always tend to see their attacks as acts of self-defense, whatever the reason. 

 

Hamas is happy to "force" people to be martyrs?

 

Doesn't Israel have forced conscription? Lol. Yeah, they do. How many do you think are willing to die to support the Israeli states cause? Or is that different due to how a person has been indoctinated in their culture, value and belief systems to which they are wrought?

 

For example if Palestine was a recognized state with their own forced conscription for similar goals as Israel  would you still define them the same way? "Occupied" West Bank is sure a nice way of putting it don't you think?

 

Frankly, I think the Israeli state should disappear. Granted, I think every nation state in earth needs to disappear so that's not saying all that much.

[RomanPer]

14 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

And what is the literal goal of the Israeli state. Last time I checked they weren't stopping their own legally and morally sanctioned overt and covert acts of expropriation of Palestinians in the region. The Israeli state has  rightfully earned the moniker "terrorist" just the same. This whole "them over there, but not us" shit is for the birds.  Afterall, people always tend to see their attacks as acts of self-defense, whatever the reason. 

 

Hamas is happy to "force" people to be martyrs?

 

Doesn't Israel have forced conscription? Lol. Yeah, they do. How many do you think are willing to die to support the Israeli states cause? Or is that different due to how a person has been indoctinated in their culture, value and belief systems to which they are wrought?

 

For example if Palestine was a recognized state with their own forced conscription for similar goals as Israel  would you still define them the same way? "Occupied" West Bank is sure a nice way of putting it don't you think?

 

Frankly, I think the Israeli state should disappear. Granted, I think every nation state in earth needs to disappear so that's not saying all that much.

Boom, here it is. Antisemitism masked under “Anti Israel”…

[Canuckle]

9 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Boom, here it is. Antisemitism masked under “Anti Israel”…

 

Horseshit.

 

Being anti-state does not make one anti-jewish.

 

I'm an anarchist, bud.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchists_Against_the_Wall

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Israel

Edited October 23, 2023 by Canuckle

[Elias Pettersson]

3 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Horseshit.

 

Being anti-state does not make one anti-jewish.

 

I'm an anarchist, bud.

 

So, your solution to the world is to eliminate all governments and have countries run themselves based on volunteers?  Are you also advocating to get rid of all of the police forces and the militaries as well?

[PistolPete13]

Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

 

So, your solution to the world is to eliminate all governments and have countries run themselves based on volunteers?  Are you also advocating to get rid of all of the police forces and the militaries as well?

Why stop there? Let’s get rid of traffic lights, schools, governments, roads, hospitals…… Society and it’s bullshit rules gotta go.  We wouldn’t even have a means of communication in an anarchist world. You’d just be a tree that falls in the forest. 

rant over for the time being.

[Canuckle]

Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

 

So, your solution to the world is to eliminate all governments and have countries run themselves based on volunteers?  Are you also advocating to get rid of all of the police forces and the militaries as well?

 

You're gonna have read a whole lot of libertarian socialist political philosophy to understand the answer to those things.

 

Might recommend starting here if you're actually interested:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

 

In short, all anarchists are anti-heirarchy, anti-capitalist, and anti-state. That includes Israel, just as it does Canada or any other state.

 

Also, the claim "volunteers" is an incorrect assertion. But you'll have to get into the thick of it to understand this "future world being sought" with the plethora of proposed ideas and means to achieving it.

[Canuckle]

2 minutes ago, PistolPete13 said:

Why stop there? Let’s get rid of traffic lights, schools, governments, roads, hospitals…… Society and it’s bullshit rules gotta go.  We wouldn’t even have a means of communication in an anarchist world. You’d just be a tree that falls in the forest. 

rant over for the time being.

 

No offense, but your lack of education on the topic is showing a fair bit here.

 

Secondly, what does your comment or OPs comment have to do with the topic of Anarchists being anti-Israeli state?  Anarchists are anti-state for every single nation state on earth and for good reason.

 

And no, it wouldn't lead to this make believe technology-less, education-less, road-less hell scape you've drawn up in your imagination here.  Pretty funny though.

 

Granted I do find most people's conception of "anarchism" to be fairly skewed (if accurate whatsoever) so it's not really surprising.

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

You're gonna have read a whole lot of libertarian socialist political philosophy to understand the answer to those things.

 

Might recommend starting here if you're actually interested:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

 

In short, all anarchists are anti-heirarchy, anti-capitalist, and anti-state. That includes Israel, just as it does Canada or any other state.

 

Also, the claim "volunteers" is an incorrect assertion. But you'll have to get into the thick of it to understand this "future world being sought" with the plethora of proposed ideas and means to achieving it.

 

So, if you are getting rid of the government, are you not also getting rid of the constitution, which the government must abide by?  Also, who would be setting legislation, where would the money come from to build roads, schools, housing, etc.  What would happen to all of the public schools, hospitals, public buildings?  What about our Medicare, how would that get paid for?  Who would be collecting all of the tax money that is used to fund everything that I just mentioned?

 

 Libertarian socialists advocate the empowerment of individuals to control their own lives and encourage them to voluntarily cooperate with each other, rather than allow themselves to be controlled by a state. Libertarian socialists therefore uphold civil liberties such as freedom of choice, freedom of expression and freedom of thought.[11]

 

According to that article, people would basically be policing themselves.  Not sure how well that is going to work out.  What if a few rebels decided to test the system.  How would you put them in line?  Are all of the criminals going to be released from jail in this Utopia world?

[Canuckle]

20 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

So, if you are getting rid of the government, are you not also getting rid of the constitution, which the government must abide by?  Also, who would be setting legislation, where would the money come from to build roads, schools, housing, etc.  What would happen to all of the public schools, hospitals, public buildings?  What about our Medicare, how would that get paid for?  Who would be collecting all of the tax money that is used to fund everything that I just mentioned?

 

 Libertarian socialists advocate the empowerment of individuals to control their own lives and encourage them to voluntarily cooperate with each other, rather than allow themselves to be controlled by a state. Libertarian socialists therefore uphold civil liberties such as freedom of choice, freedom of expression and freedom of thought.[11]

 

According to that article, people would basically be policing themselves.  Not sure how well that is going to work out.  What if a few rebels decided to test the system.  How would you put them in line?  Are all of the criminals going to be released from jail in this Utopia world?

 

You're getting way way ahead of yourself here.  Jumping straight to "how would X work" "it can't work" before even understanding how changing fundamental structures of society would change the results.

 

Small steps. Start with that first dense paragraph. Many of the answers to your questions and assertions are contained within those fundamental ideas.  But you first have to understand what those are.

 

Libertarian socialism is an anti-authoritarian and anti-capitalist political current that emphasises self-governance and workers' self-management. It is contrasted from other forms of socialism by its rejection of state ownership and from other forms of libertarianism by its rejection of private property. Broadly defined, it includes schools of both anarchism and Marxism, as well as other tendencies that oppose the state and capitalism.

 

Ie.

 

What does self governance mean.

 

What does workers self management mean.

 

What does being anti-state mean and what do libertarian socialists advocate to replacing it.

 

What does being anti-capitalist mean and what do libertarian socialists advocate to replace it.

 

In short, none of those issues you listed would likely even be issues at all. So much so that a few of those institutions wouldn't even need to exist at all given the fundamental structural changes to economy and society in general.

 

But again, this whole set of replies by you and others has nothing to do with the original anti-Israel anti-state anarchist comment.

 

We actually started a whole thread about political philosophy if you care to take it there. I'm game. And I actually explained a lot of it there already.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Canuckle

[PistolPete13]

11 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

No offense, but your lack of education on the topic is showing a fair bit here.

 

Secondly, what does your comment or OPs comment have to do with the topic of Anarchists being anti-Israeli state?  Anarchists are anti-state for every single nation state on earth and for good reason.

 

And no, it wouldn't lead to this make believe technology-less, education-less, road-less hell scape you've drawn up in your imagination here.  Pretty funny though.

 

Granted I do find most people's conception of "anarchism" to be fairly skewed (if accurate whatsoever) so it's not really surprising.

Took philosophy 101 at Langara back in the early 1980s and had lots of good discussions about anarchy. Doesn’t make me an expert on the topic, at the same time I understand what anarchy is and  how people who actually said that they were anarchists lived their lives.

 

Since I didn’t try to make any inference about anarchists being anti-Israeli state, I question why you want to make that leap. Are you trying to impose some rule on me? 
 

Is there an anarchist society that you can point to as an example, describing their education system,technological advancements and culture? I would love to be “educated” about this. Or are we just talking theory here. If so, you are right. It is pretty funny.  

No offense taken by the way. 

[Ilunga]

41 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

So, your solution to the world is to eliminate all governments and have countries run themselves based on volunteers?  Are you also advocating to get rid of all of the police forces and the militaries as well?

 

I had this idea after I started to read science fiction.

At the moment all we have to compare ourselves with is each other, different nations/ ethnicities/ societies.

If we discovered other life forms, or they discovered us we would have something/ another species to compare ourselves to, that I believe would unite us all, well at least the potential to.

We are all human beings.

 

However if you were an actual intelligent species and you observed us, would you contact us ?

[Canuckle]

 

9 minutes ago, PistolPete13 said:

Since I didn’t try to make any inference about anarchists being anti-Israeli state, I question why you want to make that leap. Are you trying to impose some rule on me? 

 Nah.  its more about the conversation sticking to the thread topic

 

I've actually been down this path before in the US politics thread and we were told to keep it on topic.

Moderator @Sharpshooter even made us a thread so we could take it there. I enjoy talking about leftist political philosophy so I'm more than happy to have good faith discussion about it if you like:

 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Canuckle

[Elias Pettersson]

17 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I had this idea after I started to read science fiction.

At the moment all we have to compare ourselves with is each other, different nations/ ethnicities/ societies.

If we discovered other life forms, or they discovered us we would have something/ another species to compare ourselves to, that I believe would unite us all, well at least the potential to.

We are all human beings.

 

However if you were an actual intelligent species and you observed us, would you contact us ?

 

Haha, not in a million years brother.  That is, if the species on the other side was actually intelligent...   

[Optimist Prime]

It is worth noting that with proportional representation, if a couple % of voters congealed around fringe concepts they would get seats, and potentially hold the balance of power in a minority government. I don't mean any offense with the term fringe, I can't think of another word for that nook in the political landscape.

[Optimist Prime]

23 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I had this idea after I started to read science fiction.

At the moment all we have to compare ourselves with is each other, different nations/ ethnicities/ societies.

If we discovered other life forms, or they discovered us we would have something/ another species to compare ourselves to, that I believe would unite us all, well at least the potential to.

We are all human beings.

 

However if you were an actual intelligent species and you observed us, would you contact us ?

I like an analogy from a great debater. Do you contact larvae in a termite mount? Any other living thing not from earth, if they were advanced enough to contact us, would view us as like larvae of bugs compare to us for intellect. Something very close to that is what he said on a debate stage, I think he is right. At best they might include us in a terrarium in one of their zoos. Maybe this is it. Haha.

[Canuck Surfer]

11 hours ago, RomanPer said:

The problem is not just Likud, if anything, they are probably the least of the “hawks”. For many years Israel had 2 major parties - Likud (right) and Avoda (left). And usually one of the parties would win majority in Knesset. The things started changing dramatically when smaller parties started separating from the big 2. For some Likud wasn’t right enough or too much right. The same was on the left side. The only constant through all this were Orthodox parties (Yahadut HaTorah for Ashkenazi Orthodox and Shas for Sefardic Orthodox). They consistently were getting their percentage points that would guarantee between 15 to 20 members of Knesset between the two of them. At the time of one party majority, these orthodox parties were pretty irrelevant. However, with multiple splits in the 2 major parties, getting a single party majority became almost impossible. Welcome “coalition governments”. And the biggest winners in this became the ultra orthodox parties. They often become these “missing” seats in forming a coalition and as a result, they hold disproportionately high power in the coalition as them leaving will break it. Majority of Israeli citizens despise the orthodox parties for this, as they get disproportionately high parts of the budget for their communities. Obviously, everything above is highly oversimplified, but I see this coalition issue as one of the biggest obstacles in any possible peace process.

 

With thanks, you have been pretty polite not to obliterate some of my incursions discussing Israeli 'sins' relative to this conflict. As an aside my belief is such problems are micro in a scale of these conflicts. Many Islamic administrations far more lawless. More blood tolerant at best, thirsty even in spite of ideology. I believe power thirsty! Who leverage ideology to command less tolerance of Christians, Jews, anybody! Yaov Gallant, regardless, stands out to me on the Israeli side as a pronounced sore spot, inflammatory voice, an instigator. 

 

Who is heart and soul Likud! Among the harder of hard line extremists in the party.  Is he simply emboldened by these Orthodox factions?

 

And what do these factions want?      

[Canuck Surfer]

 

This docu / explanation is a Palestinian lens. Although not so much from a Hamas or extremist side.

 

Which makes it useful for those looking for information; not pure hate?