Hamas attacking Israel

[Bob Long]

Just now, Coconuts said:

 

Are you speaking to the following? "I'm reflecting on my role as a politician who is participating in this settler colonial system, and I ask that all politicians do the same.".

 

Because I interpreted that as her questioning her role in a Canadian political system, which is a settler colonial political system. 

 

Or are you referring to the bit in the second paragraph? Because she wouldn't be the only one to argue that illegal Israeli settlements amount to colonialism. 

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129942

 

Settlement is ongoing.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/26/israel-approves-plans-for-thousands-of-illegal-settlement-homes

 

UN was pretty clear.

 

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2020/06/israeli-annexation-parts-palestinian-west-bank-would-break-international-law-un

 

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/07/international-community-must-act-end-israels-annexation-occupied-west-bank

 

https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

 

 

Both.

[Warhippy]

18 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

How can Jewish people be "settlers" in a place they've been as long as anyone else?

 

People on the left love to over use this settler stuff and she misapplied it. 

 

I don't think the NDP took their decision lightly but it was the right call. You can't abstract this to something so blatantly simplic.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Warhippy

[The Lock]

Perhaps pardon my ignorance, by why the **** are we arguing about "settlers"?

 

What does this even have to do with people dying over in Israel? Who cares who settled what? They both live there and claim the same lands. This is the "issue": both have a right to be there.

Edited October 25, 2023 by The Lock

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, The Lock said:

Perhaps pardon my ignorance, by why the **** are we arguing about "settlers"?

 

What does this even have to do with people dying over in Israel? Who cares who settled what? They both live there and claim the same lands. This is the issue.

 

An Ontario MPP got kicked out of the NDP caucus for her statement about Israel and it was part of her argument.

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Perhaps pardon my ignorance, by why the **** are we arguing about "settlers"?

 

What does this even have to do with people dying over in Israel? Who cares who settled what? They both live there and claim the same lands. This is the "issue": both have a right to be there.

People just flexing their "lefty cred" and all

[moosehead]

26 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Whatever. You choose to ignore things done to Israelis in many of your arguments.

 

I see a lot of people rushing to prove their lefty cred in this conflict. This MPP overdid it and paid the price.

 

I am ignoring nothing. Both sides have done horrendous things to each other.

 

You on the othehand, tend to ignore history.....    Sometimes history is ugly.... but we still need to acknowledge what happened and why ...

 

Settlers - settled.....     We in Canada have  alot of dirty history involved settler as well.... 

Edited October 25, 2023 by moosehead

[Bob Long]

Just now, moosehead said:

 

I am ignoring nothing. Both sides have done horrendous things to each other.

 

You on the othehand, tend to ignore history.....    Sometimes history is ugly.... but we still need to acknowledge what happened and why ...

 

Settlers - settled.....     We in Canada has alot of dirty history involved settler as well.... 

 

History huh?

[moosehead]

15 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Perhaps pardon my ignorance, by why the **** are we arguing about "settlers"?

 

What does this even have to do with people dying over in Israel? Who cares who settled what? They both live there and claim the same lands. This is the "issue": both have a right to be there.

 

[Sharpshooter]

33 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

 

 

In all seriousness though. You’re free to participate not to participate in any thread. 
 

Not sure what’s upset you, but you do you. Feel free to PM me if you have any issues. 
 

Cheers 

[the destroyer of worlds]

Seen this older article from August 1st shared on Reddit.   Just dropping this here to maybe stir the pot.  Or not. .  Do with this what you will.

 

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435

 

Israel holds over 1,200 detainees without charge. That’s the most in 3 decades, a rights group says

[moosehead]

5 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

Seen this older article from August 1st shared on Reddit.   Just dropping this here to maybe stir the pot.  Or not. .  Do with this what you will.

 

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435

 

Israel holds over 1,200 detainees without charge. That’s the most in 3 decades, a rights group says

 

Same article

 

The West Bank has been under Israeli military rule since Israel captured the territory in the 1967 Mideast war. The Palestinians want it to form the main part of their future state.

 

The territory’s nearly 3 million Palestinian residents are subject to Israel’s military justice system, while the nearly 500,000 Jewish settlers living alongside them have Israeli citizenship and are subject to civilian courts.

Such disparities have fueled allegations by human rights groups that Israeli policies toward the Palestinians amount to apartheid.

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, moosehead said:

 

I am ignoring nothing. Both sides have done horrendous things to each other.

 

You on the othehand, tend to ignore history.....    Sometimes history is ugly.... but we still need to acknowledge what happened and why ...

 

Settlers - settled.....     We in Canada have  alot of dirty history involved settler as well.... 

 

Which history are we talking about? The one that conveniently starts in 1947 and looks at only subset of events? Or the one that goes, let’s say, to the end of 17th century?

[moosehead]

45 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Which history are we talking about? The one that conveniently starts in 1947 and looks at only subset of events? Or the one that goes, let’s say, to the end of 17th century?

 

Where should history begin, and should it matter?

 

“Israel” and “Palestine.” One land, two names. Both Jews and Arabs have claimed it as theirs alone. From a purely historical perspective, “Israel” predates “Palestine” by more than a millennium. But, with the Jewish people then dispersed from their homeland, “Palestine” became home to a substantial Arab population, again for more than a millennium. From a perspective of justice and equity, both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.

 

The wrongs and brutalities done by each side to the other have become too numerous to count. It does no good to try to assign blame for the latest war between Israel and Hamas. The war and the specific events that led up to it are just more entries in a ledger written in blood and tears. The stark fact is that there is now no act of vengeance or retribution that Jews and Arabs could do to the other party in the conflict that would allow them to say that accounts had been settled on their side.

 

The ledger must, therefore, be discarded. As Jodi Rudoren has written: “[A]ny hope of ending the conflict…requires Palestinians and Israeli Jews to either acknowledge each other’s versions of history without trying to determine which is more legitimate, or to just ignore them. The only possible peace agreement is one that looks forward.” In a reversal of the transformation of the Nile in Exodus 7, the rivers of blood spilled must, somehow, become water under the bridge.

 

https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/israel-and-palestine-where-should-history-begin-and-should-it-matter/

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Where should history begin, and should it matter?

 

“Israel” and “Palestine.” One land, two names. Both Jews and Arabs have claimed it as theirs alone. From a purely historical perspective, “Israel” predates “Palestine” by more than a millennium. But, with the Jewish people then dispersed from their homeland, “Palestine” became home to a substantial Arab population, again for more than a millennium. From a perspective of justice and equity, both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.

 

The wrongs and brutalities done by each side to the other have become too numerous to count. It does no good to try to assign blame for the latest war between Israel and Hamas. The war and the specific events that led up to it are just more entries in a ledger written in blood and tears. The stark fact is that there is now no act of vengeance or retribution that Jews and Arabs could do to the other party in the conflict that would allow them to say that accounts had been settled on their side.

 

The ledger must, therefore, be discarded. As Jodi Rudoren has written: “[A]ny hope of ending the conflict…requires Palestinians and Israeli Jews to either acknowledge each other’s versions of history without trying to determine which is more legitimate, or to just ignore them. The only possible peace agreement is one that looks forward.” In a reversal of the transformation of the Nile in Exodus 7, the rivers of blood spilled must, somehow, become water under the bridge.

 

https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/israel-and-palestine-where-should-history-begin-and-should-it-matter/

I never said Palestinians shouldn’t have their own land. My comment is to make sure that the whole “Palestine will be free from the river to the sea” doesn’t stick.

[Playoff Beered]

53 minutes ago, moosehead said:

Where should history begin, and should it matter?

 

“Israel” and “Palestine.” One land, two names. Both Jews and Arabs have claimed it as theirs alone. From a purely historical perspective, “Israel” predates “Palestine” by more than a millennium. But, with the Jewish people then dispersed from their homeland, “Palestine” became home to a substantial Arab population, again for more than a millennium. From a perspective of justice and equity, both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.

 

The wrongs and brutalities done by each side to the other have become too numerous to count. It does no good to try to assign blame for the latest war between Israel and Hamas. The war and the specific events that led up to it are just more entries in a ledger written in blood and tears. The stark fact is that there is now no act of vengeance or retribution that Jews and Arabs could do to the other party in the conflict that would allow them to say that accounts had been settled on their side.

 

The ledger must, therefore, be discarded. As Jodi Rudoren has written: “[A]ny hope of ending the conflict…requires Palestinians and Israeli Jews to either acknowledge each other’s versions of history without trying to determine which is more legitimate, or to just ignore them. The only possible peace agreement is one that looks forward.” In a reversal of the transformation of the Nile in Exodus 7, the rivers of blood spilled must, somehow, become water under the bridge.

 

https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/israel-and-palestine-where-should-history-begin-and-should-it-matter/

 

Nice way to say killed and had their land stolen.

[Elias Pettersson]

9 hours ago, moosehead said:

 

Black Canadian MP gets suspended for speaking out against Apartheid.  She was only agreeing with UN statements on Israeli policy..     Shame on Canada. 

I’m confused. What does the fact that she is black have to do with anything?

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, moosehead said:

 

Where should history begin, and should it matter?

 

“Israel” and “Palestine.” One land, two names. Both Jews and Arabs have claimed it as theirs alone. From a purely historical perspective, “Israel” predates “Palestine” by more than a millennium. But, with the Jewish people then dispersed from their homeland, “Palestine” became home to a substantial Arab population, again for more than a millennium. From a perspective of justice and equity, both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.

 

The wrongs and brutalities done by each side to the other have become too numerous to count. It does no good to try to assign blame for the latest war between Israel and Hamas. The war and the specific events that led up to it are just more entries in a ledger written in blood and tears. The stark fact is that there is now no act of vengeance or retribution that Jews and Arabs could do to the other party in the conflict that would allow them to say that accounts had been settled on their side.

 

The ledger must, therefore, be discarded. As Jodi Rudoren has written: “[A]ny hope of ending the conflict…requires Palestinians and Israeli Jews to either acknowledge each other’s versions of history without trying to determine which is more legitimate, or to just ignore them. The only possible peace agreement is one that looks forward.” In a reversal of the transformation of the Nile in Exodus 7, the rivers of blood spilled must, somehow, become water under the bridge.

 

https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/israel-and-palestine-where-should-history-begin-and-should-it-matter/

 

Also, if we are sticklers to the facts, it didn’t become a home to a substantial Arab population for more then a millennium. Please refer to the link I posted earlier to results of expedition in late 17th century to Palestina.

[Elias Pettersson]

2 hours ago, moosehead said:

 

Where should history begin, and should it matter?

 

“Israel” and “Palestine.” One land, two names. Both Jews and Arabs have claimed it as theirs alone. From a purely historical perspective, “Israel” predates “Palestine” by more than a millennium. But, with the Jewish people then dispersed from their homeland, “Palestine” became home to a substantial Arab population, again for more than a millennium. From a perspective of justice and equity, both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.

 

The wrongs and brutalities done by each side to the other have become too numerous to count. It does no good to try to assign blame for the latest war between Israel and Hamas. The war and the specific events that led up to it are just more entries in a ledger written in blood and tears. The stark fact is that there is now no act of vengeance or retribution that Jews and Arabs could do to the other party in the conflict that would allow them to say that accounts had been settled on their side.

 

The ledger must, therefore, be discarded. As Jodi Rudoren has written: “[A]ny hope of ending the conflict…requires Palestinians and Israeli Jews to either acknowledge each other’s versions of history without trying to determine which is more legitimate, or to just ignore them. The only possible peace agreement is one that looks forward.” In a reversal of the transformation of the Nile in Exodus 7, the rivers of blood spilled must, somehow, become water under the bridge.

 

https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/israel-and-palestine-where-should-history-begin-and-should-it-matter/

There was never an official Palestinian state in the Middle East. EVER. They never owned any land ever. Go back to before the Roman Empire. Go back to the Ottoman Empire. When exactly did Palestine and the Palestinians ever have their own state?  
 

Even after the Ottoman Empire ended the British took over the land. Still there was no Palestinian state. In 1947 the UN offered the Palestinians their own state for the first time in their history. The Palestinians didn’t like the deal and refused it. They then started a war with the Jews to claim even more land than they were offered. They lost the war. And ended up with even less land. This is how war works. You win some and you lose some. 
 

I agree in a two state solution. Both sides need to have their own state. But continuing to rewrite history by claiming that the Palestinians had their land taken away from them is false information.

 

This entire 75 year debacle could have easily been avoided if the Palestinians had simply signed the UN partition plan from 1947. 

[Elias Pettersson]

Here is a review and a history of the land including a map for easy reference…

 

From 1000-925 B.C this area was conglomeration of Canaan cities. It was not the Palestinian state. 
These were Jews. 

Before the Kingdom of Israel there was Judea, not the Palestinian state.

Before the Empire of Babylon there was Judea, not the Palestinian State.

Then there was the Persian Empire, not the Palestinian State.

Then Alexander of Macedonia ( Alexander the Great) came and continued his father’s King Filip of Macedonian. There was no such thing as the Palestinian state.

After Alexander there was Roman Empire and not the Palestinian State.

After Roman Empire there was the Byzantium Empire, not the Palestinian state.

After Byzantium Empire came Islamic State of Egypt. Not the Palestinian State. 

After Islamic State of Egypt came the Ottoman Empire, not the Palestinian State. 

After the fall of the Ottoman Empire came the British Mandate.

After WW2, British Mandate returned the land back to Israel.

There was never the Palestinian State.
You don’t need Harvard degree for this.

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

There was never an official Palestinian state in the Middle East. EVER. They never owned any land ever. Go back to before the Roman Empire. Go back to the Ottoman Empire. When exactly did Palestine and the Palestinians ever have their own state?  
 

Even after the Ottoman Empire ended the British took over the land. Still there was no Palestinian state. In 1947 the UN offered the Palestinians their own state for the first time in their history. The Palestinians didn’t like the deal and refused it. They then started a war with the Jews to claim even more land than they were offered. They lost the war. And ended up with even less land. This is how war works. You win some and you lose some. 
 

I agree in a two state solution. Both sides need to have their own state. But continuing to rewrite history by claiming that the Palestinians had their land taken away from them is false information.

 

This entire 75 year debacle could have easily been avoided if the Palestinians had simply signed the UN partition plan from 1947. 

 

This is something I disagree with brother.

Even with the current conditions, Isreali settlers are still taking land illegally,

imagine if they had less than they ended up with back then. 

They would still be taking land illegally, very probably more of it. 

 

This concept of owning land, as a farmer I am totally aware that I am simply a custodian of the land I dwell on.

I didn't buy it, my parents did.

I feel the responsibility to care for it as best as I can and pass it on to the next generation, my son. 

That's how my parents felt.

 

If we are lucky we have 7 - 10 decades at best.

This planet is nearly 4billion years old.

[Playoff Beered]

8 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

This is something I disagree with brother.

Even with the current conditions, Isreali settlers are still taking land illegally,

imagine if they had less than they ended up with back then. 

They would still be taking land illegally, very probably more of it. 

 

This concept of owning land, as a farmer I am totally aware that I am simply a custodian of the land I dwell on.

I didn't buy it, my parents did.

I feel the responsibility to care for it as best as I can and pass it on to the next generation, my son. 

That's how my parents felt.

 

If we are lucky we have 7 - 10 decades at best.

This planet is nearly 4billion years old.

 

[Optimist Prime]

I don't know that it is incredibly relevant but on the land issue, this is adjacent interesting data for me. Over half of Gazans were born in Gaza strip in the last 25 years. The birth rate per 100 thousand women in gaza is currently 20 times the birthrate per 100 thousand women in Canada. It is almost like there is a breeding program as official policy in Gaza. Grow your own army?

 

The West Bank is nearer Canadian birth rates. So it does beg the question, with so little resources, why is this population growing beyond its carrying capacity in the strip?

[Elias Pettersson]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

This is something I disagree with brother.

Even with the current conditions, Isreali settlers are still taking land illegally,

imagine if they had less than they ended up with back then. 

They would still be taking land illegally, very probably more of it. 

 

This concept of owning land, as a farmer I am totally aware that I am simply a custodian of the land I dwell on.

I didn't buy it, my parents did.

I feel the responsibility to care for it as best as I can and pass it on to the next generation, my son. 

That's how my parents felt.

 

If we are lucky we have 7 - 10 decades at best.

This planet is nearly 4billion years old.

 

War is ugly my friend.  But if you go through the history, the land that they call Israel now was fought for and won since over 3000 years ago by many different entities.  Land is always conquered when you have war.  

 

The UN partition plan of 1947, if agreed upon by the Palestinians, would have created a two state solution.  Would the Jews have kept fighting afterwards to get more of the land?  Maybe so.  But then that tells me that the rest of the Middle East didn't really care.  At the end of the day, someone has to protect these people.  Did the USA and the UK protect the Jews in Germany?  Did NATO or anyone else protect the Iraqi people in the Gulf War?

 

Everyone seems to have their own interests.  The USA has played police dog over the rest of the world for decades, all to protect their own interests.

 

At the end of the day, there is a reason the land they call Israel today has been fought for for many centuries.  Strategically, it is probably the most valuable land in the world.   The history of this land area has been marked by frequent political conflict and violent land seizures because of its importance to several major world religions, and because this land area sits at a valuable geographic crossroads between Africa and Asia.

 

This land will continue to be fought for until this world is no longer.  I am not sure peace can ever be achieved in this area.  Sad to say, but true...

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

War is ugly my friend.  But if you go through the history, the land that they call Israel now was fought for and won since over 3000 years ago by many different entities.  Land is always conquered when you have war.  

 

The UN partition plan of 1947, if agreed upon by the Palestinians, would have created a two state solution.  Would the Jews have kept fighting afterwards to get more of the land?  Maybe so.  But then that tells me that the rest of the Middle East didn't really care.  At the end of the day, someone has to protect these people.  Did the USA and the UK protect the Jews in Germany?  Did NATO or anyone else protect the Iraqi people in the Gulf War?

 

Everyone seems to have their own interests.  The USA has played police dog over the rest of the world for decades, all to protect their own interests.

 

At the end of the day, there is a reason the land they call Israel today has been fought for for many centuries.  Strategically, it is probably the most valuable land in the world.   The history of this land area has been marked by frequent political conflict and violent land seizures because of its importance to several major world religions, and because this land area sits at a valuable geographic crossroads between Africa and Asia.

 

This land will continue to be fought for until this world is no longer.  I am not sure peace can ever be achieved in this area.  Sad to say, but true...

Africa, Asia and Europe.

 

The timing of when Hamas started this war was specifically done to interfere in peace. The treaty likely would have been signed already if the Oct 7th attack by Gaza on Israel didn't happen. The Palestinians were about to lose one of their last nation allies to the peace process 

[Ilunga]

54 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

 

I am at that age where my friends are dropping like flys.

Lost 2 friends to cancer and heart problems this year, another one was just diagnosed with cancer a month or so ago. 

At 20- 30 life seems endless, coming up on 60, the days go by like hours.