Playoff Beered Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 11 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I am at that age where my friends are dropping like flys. Lost 2 friends to cancer and heart problems this year, another one was just diagnosed with cancer a month or so ago. At 20- 30 life seems endless, coming up on 60, the days go by like hours. I resemble that remark. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 46 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: War is ugly my friend. But if you go through the history, the land that they call Israel now was fought for and won since over 3000 years ago by many different entities. Land is always conquered when you have war. The UN partition plan of 1947, if agreed upon by the Palestinians, would have created a two state solution. Would the Jews have kept fighting afterwards to get more of the land? Maybe so. But then that tells me that the rest of the Middle East didn't really care. At the end of the day, someone has to protect these people. Did the USA and the UK protect the Jews in Germany? Did NATO or anyone else protect the Iraqi people in the Gulf War? Everyone seems to have their own interests. The USA has played police dog over the rest of the world for decades, all to protect their own interests. At the end of the day, there is a reason the land they call Israel today has been fought for for many centuries. Strategically, it is probably the most valuable land in the world. The history of this land area has been marked by frequent political conflict and violent land seizures because of its importance to several major world religions, and because this land area sits at a valuable geographic crossroads between Africa and Asia. This land will continue to be fought for until this world is no longer. I am not sure peace can ever be achieved in this area. Sad to say, but true... You have just made my point. We don't really own the land we live on. As I stated we are merely custodians. As for the history of the middle east I am very conversant with it. For a detailed, while somewhat personal account of the Arabian revolt against the Ottoman Empire try reading the Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T.E Lawrence. It gives one an insight into the birth of Arabian nationhood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 12 hours ago, moosehead said: Why. I thought Canada allowed free speech ? My grandpa fought in WW 2 for freedom. 12 hours ago, moosehead said: I am pro Israel. But also i am pro 2 state solution . Peace for all. I have posted a great deal of critique towards Israel. Due to believing that even if Hamas is a bigger problem? I still believe and expect that Israel has to conform to the rule of law. Hamas as well, unfortunately, is just farther from our sphere of influence as Westerners. Unless we simply all invade Palestine. Israel should have to listen, IMO, considering the aid it has and does receive. That said? Here is a document that effectively ( @RomanPer ?) tells the story as per a Jewish point of view. * Which includes the stated, just like Apartheid is stated by Hamas, fact that at least twice before 1948? Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution. * Then another three times after, two of which were post the 6 day war & 1967 borders. * Only once proposed with borders less than the 1967? * Once proposed with as much as 80% of current Israeli borders. * Palestinian leaders, often pressed by Arab regional influences rejected these. * After pressing rejection Jordan and Egypt annexed portions of land Palestinians would be claiming. * In all cases, when negotiations were withdrawn from by Palestinians. Terror attacks and full drawn out war ensued. * While much of the world accuses Israel of creating the 'worlds largest open jail' in Gaza? * Israel was also attacked as fast as they withdrew from Gaza in 2006. * Ergo the security issue Palestinians complain about is, at least partly but absolutely, a self inflicted wound? * Disclosure, the is as one sided a document against Palestinains view as I have read here. Aside from blood calls after Oct 7th atrocities. * Its as wholesome or more to facts as any critique of Israel I have read. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: I have posted a great deal of critique towards Israel. Due to believing that even if Hamas is a bigger problem? I still believe and expect that Israel has to conform to the rule of law. Hamas as well, unfortunately, is just farther from our sphere of influence as Westerners. Unless we simply all invade Palestine. Israel should have to listen, IMO, considering the aid it has and does receive. That said? Here is a document that effectively ( @RomanPer ?) tells the story as per a Jewish point of view. * Which includes the stated, just like Apartheid is stated by Hamas, fact that at least twice before 1948? Palestinians were offered a 2 state solution. * Then another three times after, two of which were post the 6 day war & 1967 borders. * Only once proposed with borders less than the 1967? * Once proposed with as much as 80% of current Israeli borders. * Palestinian leaders, often pressed by Arab regional influences rejected these. * After pressing rejection Jordan and Egypt annexed portions of land Palestinians would be claiming. * In all cases, when negotiations were withdrawn from by Palestinians. Terror attacks and full drawn out war ensued. * While much of the world accuses Israel of creating the 'worlds largest open jail' in Gaza? * Israel was also attacked as fast as they withdrew from Gaza in 2006. * Ergo the security issue Palestinians complain about is, at least partly but absolutely, a self inflicted wound? * Disclosure, the is as one sided a document against Palestinains view as I have read here. Aside from blood calls after Oct 7th atrocities. * Its as wholesome or more to facts as any critique of Israel I have read. I’m glad you found this video. I hope that when such facts come from people other than me in this thread, they might have bigger effect. There seems to be a group of posters here who immediately dismiss whatever I say, no matter what it is. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 4 hours ago, Ilunga said: I am at that age where my friends are dropping like flys. Lost 2 friends to cancer and heart problems this year, another one was just diagnosed with cancer a month or so ago. At 20- 30 life seems endless, coming up on 60, the days go by like hours. 4 hours ago, Playoff Beered said: I resemble that remark. I'll be 63 in January....so I'm with you... It's funny, I play in a band and our drummer is 5 years older than me. (I'm second oldest) I put together the set list and if we play something that fast and fairly long, (Like Sultans of Swing) I feel like I have to back it up with Margaritaville, or something else that I think won't kill him..... 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Warhippy Posted October 25, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, RomanPer said: Which history are we talking about? The one that conveniently starts in 1947 and looks at only subset of events? Or the one that goes, let’s say, to the end of 17th century? 7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Here is a review and a history of the land including a map for easy reference… From 1000-925 B.C this area was conglomeration of Canaan cities. It was not the Palestinian state. These were Jews. Before the Kingdom of Israel there was Judea, not the Palestinian state. Before the Empire of Babylon there was Judea, not the Palestinian State. Then there was the Persian Empire, not the Palestinian State. Then Alexander of Macedonia ( Alexander the Great) came and continued his father’s King Filip of Macedonian. There was no such thing as the Palestinian state. After Alexander there was Roman Empire and not the Palestinian State. After Roman Empire there was the Byzantium Empire, not the Palestinian state. After Byzantium Empire came Islamic State of Egypt. Not the Palestinian State. After Islamic State of Egypt came the Ottoman Empire, not the Palestinian State. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire came the British Mandate. After WW2, British Mandate returned the land back to Israel. There was never the Palestinian State. You don’t need Harvard degree for this. Are we arguing Israel is now just exercising it's right to historical lands? Or that the conquered lands should remain with the conquerer? Ok So you've no problem with that? Cool. Just gonna leave this here and find out how or why this is different. Edited October 25, 2023 by Warhippy 1 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 6 hours ago, Ilunga said: You have just made my point. We don't really own the land we live on. As I stated we are merely custodians. As for the history of the middle east I am very conversant with it. For a detailed, while somewhat personal account of the Arabian revolt against the Ottoman Empire try reading the Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T.E Lawrence. It gives one an insight into the birth of Arabian nationhood. curious how you would interpret the North American "settler" pov with your take on ME history. Seems to me its not helping in any way to bring this conflict to a resolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Warhippy said: Are we arguing Israel is now just exercising it's right to historical lands? Or that the conquered lands should remain with the conquerer? Ok So you've no problem with that? Cool. Just gonna leave this here and find out how or why this is different. If you thing you “got me” - think again. In case of Ukraine vs Russia - there was peaceful agreement of 1991 of breaking up Soviet Union. Soviet Union technically was a federation of 15 states. These states all decided to leave the union between 1990 and 1991. Specifically between Ukraine and Russia, there was additional agreement (Budapest accord) in 1994 that promised to respect Ukrainian borders as of 1991 in return for Ukraine becoming denuclearized nation. But nice try. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Hospitals in rough shape, nearly 6000 dead and countless wounded individuals with limited treatment options Many hiding out in hospitals https://aje.io/4hsru5?update=2437036 Strikes taking place near hospitals https://aje.io/4hsru5?update=2437026 Was published yesterday https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/24/gaza-hospital-generators-to-run-out-of-fuel-in-48-hours-health-ministry Today https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/25/gaza-is-out-of-fuel-out-of-time-under-israels-bombardment https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/25/how-will-i-give-birth-dangers-of-a-gaza-pregnancy-amid-israeli-bombing Another source regarding pregnant women in Gaza What's going on with the UN https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/25/what-has-the-un-done-on-the-israel-palestine-conflict Unsurprisingly, at the bottom it notes that "there is also a history of the US blocking UN resolutions critical of Israel through its veto power." and links to this https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/19/a-history-of-the-us-blocking-un-resolutions-against-israel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Incase anyone needs a reminder of what Israel is up against: Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad chiefs discuss route to ‘victory’ on Israel Published On 25 Oct 202325 Oct 2023 The head of Lebanon’s Hezbollah armed group has met top Palestinian armed group leaders from Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, discussing what their alliance must do to achieve an “all-out victory” over Israel, according to a statement by Hezbollah. The statement said Wednesday’s meeting involved Hezbollah’s Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, Hamas deputy chief Saleh al-Arouri and Islamic Jihad chief Ziad al-Nakhala, without mentioning the location. KEEP READING “The leaders tackled latest developments since the start of Operation Al-Aqsa Flood and the events that followed on all fronts, including the confrontations across the border between Lebanon and the occupied Palestine,” Lebanese state media Al-Manar quoted the statement as saying, referring to the October 7 attack on Israel by Hamas fighters that killed at least 1,400 people in Israel and prompted a retaliation that in turn killed more than 5,700 people in Gaza. “Sayyed Nasrallah assessed with Nakhale and al-Arouri the international and regional stances as well as steps to be taken by the Axis of Resistance in this critical phase in order to achieve an all-out victory and to stop the brutal attack on the oppressed people of Gaza and the West Bank,” the statement added. Since the October 7 attack, Hezbollah has had near-daily exchanges of fire with Israeli forces along the Israeli-Lebanese border. The Lebanese group announced on Wednesday that two more of its fighters had been killed, increasing the death toll in its ranks to 40 fighters since the start of the conflict. On Tuesday, the health ministry said that 704 Palestinians, including 305 children, were killed as Israel ramps up its aggression against the enclave. The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs said Tuesday’s death toll was the highest figure reported in a single day since the conflict began. In the occupied West Bank, at least 100 people have also been killed in clashes with the Israeli military, the Palestinian health ministry said. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/25/hezbollah-hamas-islamic-jihad-chiefs-discuss-route-to-victory-on-israel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 US pushing back against a ground invasion, pushing more airstrikes and special ops raids https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-770137 There's more to it though, the US wants to get air defenses in place to protect it's interests https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-palestinians-news/card/israel-agrees-to-delay-invasion-of-gaza-so-u-s-can-rush-missile-defenses-to-region-wFU3kduhruPhm6e8OM7b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Death toll in Gaza reaches 6,546 The Palestinian health ministry in Gaza says at least 6,546 people have been killed in Israeli attacks since October 7, including 756 in the last 24 hours. At least 2,704 children have been killed while 17,439 people have been wounded since the fighting erupted. https://aje.io/4hsru5?update=2436447 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, Coconuts said: Death toll in Gaza reaches 6,546 The Palestinian health ministry in Gaza says at least 6,546 people have been killed in Israeli attacks since October 7, including 756 in the last 24 hours. At least 2,704 children have been killed while 17,439 people have been wounded since the fighting erupted. https://aje.io/4hsru5?update=2436447 Do you think the leaders of Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad care at all about these numbers? It's horrific. So why did these leaders bring this, and continue to bring this, on to their own people? I have yet to hear how Israel is supposed to protect itself from Gaza leaders like this, and also not put anyone in harms way. What is Israel supposed to do, just accept getting attacked? I'd really like to hear what the actual plan would be, because I haven't seen one yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Gotta wonder what the US's long-term goals are, they're clear in their support of Israel but Israel's longer term goals are pretty vague as well. We've heard about rooting out Hamas, but little else. Gotta wonder what kind of appetite the US public has for this, the impact of their withdrawal from Afghanistan is still fresh. They finally got out of Iraq in 2011, their impact upon civilian life there was well documented. But those who profit from war in the US will surely support any US military action. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/25/as-us-resists-ceasefire-calls-what-is-bidens-endgame-in-gaza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoff Beered Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Turkey’s Erdogan says Hamas is a ‘liberation’ not a ‘terrorist’ group https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/25/Turkey-s-Erdogan-says-Hamas-is-not-a-terrorist-organization- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: Do you think the leaders of Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad care at all about these numbers? It's horrific. So why did these leaders bring this, and continue to bring this, on to their own people? I have yet to hear how Israel is supposed to protect itself from Gaza leaders like this, and also not put anyone in harms way. What is Israel supposed to do, just accept getting attacked? I'd really like to hear what the actual plan would be, because I haven't seen one yet. No, I don't, but I've been pretty clear throughout this thread that I don't view Hamas as being good for the Palestinian people either. Israel has the full backing of the US, that's pretty clear, they also appear to have support in the EU, although the messages from Europe appear more mixed. I'm not a military strategist, but I'll ask you this, should the response amount to what'll likely end up being 10k+ dead Palestinians or more? 756 in the last 24 hours, we're getting there. Bombings probably won't stop. Israel is holding off on a ground invasion, but that doesn't mean one won't happen. Israel's in a tough spot, sure, but unlike the Palestinian people they actually have resources and control the flow of aid. Israel has a world class military and both the economic and military backing of the largest military power in the world, whereas the Palestinian people are largely caught between a rock in Israel and a hard place in Hamas+. They aren't the same. The US is likely paying folks hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, to try and figure out the answer to the question you're asking me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said: Turkey’s Erdogan says Hamas is a ‘liberation’ not a ‘terrorist’ group https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/25/Turkey-s-Erdogan-says-Hamas-is-not-a-terrorist-organization- Kurds in Turkey will be happy to hear it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 46 minutes ago, RomanPer said: If you thing you “got me” - think again. In case of Ukraine vs Russia - there was peaceful agreement of 1991 of breaking up Soviet Union. Soviet Union technically was a federation of 15 states. These states all decided to leave the union between 1990 and 1991. Specifically between Ukraine and Russia, there was additional agreement (Budapest accord) in 1994 that promised to respect Ukrainian borders as of 1991 in return for Ukraine becoming denuclearized nation. But nice try. Ah ok. So this is different because it's a different set of paperwork and agreements but we're still relying on ancient maps and conquered lands to justify our position but it's different. Because various paperwork exists regarding Palestinian and Israeli borders settlements and such. But it's good to know where things stand So with that in mind just leave donbas and crimea alone and call it a day right? This is different or? Edited October 25, 2023 by Warhippy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said: Turkey’s Erdogan says Hamas is a ‘liberation’ not a ‘terrorist’ group https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/25/Turkey-s-Erdogan-says-Hamas-is-not-a-terrorist-organization- Doesn't Erdogan consistently play all sides though? I remember him being a headache for Ukraine Edited October 25, 2023 by Coconuts 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Coconuts said: No, I don't, but I've been pretty clear throughout this thread that I don't view Hamas as being good for the Palestinian people either. Israel has the full backing of the US, that's pretty clear, they also appear to have support in the EU, although the messages from Europe appear more mixed. I'm not a military strategist, but I'll ask you this, should the response amount to what'll likely end up being 10k+ dead Palestinians or more? 756 in the last 24 hours, we're getting there. Bombings probably won't stop. Israel is holding off on a ground invasion, but that doesn't mean one won't happen. Israel's in a tough spot, sure, but unlike the Palestinian people they actually have resources and control the flow of aid. Israel has a world class military and both the economic and military backing of the largest military power in the world, whereas the Palestinian people are largely caught between a rock in Israel and a hard place in Hamas+. They aren't the same. The US is likely paying folks hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, to try and figure out the answer to the question you're asking me. I don't trust the numbers Al Jazeera is putting out. They've inflated numbers before, but even with that no one is happy with the deaths other than the terrorist leaders. Its not just about Gaza either. We can see that this whole thing is to bring in other Arab states into the fight. So the balance isn't just Gaza vs Israel at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Bob Long said: I don't trust the numbers Al Jazeera is putting out. They've inflated numbers before, but even with that no one is happy with the deaths other than the terrorist leaders. Its not just about Gaza either. We can see that this whole thing is to bring in other Arab states into the fight. So the balance isn't just Gaza vs Israel at all. If they're off it's probably not by too much though. Passed 5k a couple days ago. https://unsdg.un.org/latest/stories/gaza-death-toll-passes-5000-no-ceasefire-sight It is more complicated than that, certainly. Too many players with agendas, proxy groups, ect. US forces have experienced attacks in recent days, gotta think sooner or later they'll actually be pulled into it. Hard to say what's actually going on with Iran, or what they have. It's a powder keg. Edited October 25, 2023 by Coconuts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 11 minutes ago, Coconuts said: If they're off it's probably not by too much though. Passed 5k a couple days ago. https://unsdg.un.org/latest/stories/gaza-death-toll-passes-5000-no-ceasefire-sight It is more complicated than that, certainly. Too many players with agendas, proxy groups, ect. US forces have experienced attacks in recent days, gotta think sooner or later they'll actually be pulled into it. Hard to say what's actually going on with Iran, or what they have. It's a powder keg. part of the problem with some of the narratives I'm seeing is it seems to forget that we're actually allies with Israel. We don't have a functioning relationship with terrorist groups. So this idea e.g., that the 'west cares less about lives in Gaza' is just horse crap, imo, and really insulting. What kind of relationship is the US supposed to have with Hezbollah to help reduce casualties in Gaza? Its one of the reasons I'm happy the MPP got the boot. What she's bringing to the table just makes discussions harder to have. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 25 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Ah ok. So this is different because it's a different set of paperwork and agreements but we're still relying on ancient maps and conquered lands to justify our position but it's different. Because various paperwork exists regarding Palestinian and Israeli borders settlements and such. But it's good to know where things stand So with that in mind just leave donbas and crimea alone and call it a day right? This is different or? are you really suggesting that Ukrainian people are settlers? if thats how far this false equivalence stuff has gone we're in real trouble. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Bob Long said: are you really suggesting that Ukrainian people are settlers? if thats how far this false equivalence stuff has gone we're in real trouble. The most logical response is always the jump to the most extreme and illogical conclusion isn't it? *laughs in supreme irony* Edited October 25, 2023 by Warhippy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 18 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Its one of the reasons I'm happy the MPP got the boot. What she's bringing to the table just makes discussions harder to have. Yes, demanding and respecting human rights in general over implied bias always makes discussion impossible. Stupid lefty cred narratives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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