Elias Pettersson Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Coconuts said: No, I don't, but I've been pretty clear throughout this thread that I don't view Hamas as being good for the Palestinian people either. Israel has the full backing of the US, that's pretty clear, they also appear to have support in the EU, although the messages from Europe appear more mixed. I'm not a military strategist, but I'll ask you this, should the response amount to what'll likely end up being 10k+ dead Palestinians or more? 756 in the last 24 hours, we're getting there. Bombings probably won't stop. Israel is holding off on a ground invasion, but that doesn't mean one won't happen. Israel's in a tough spot, sure, but unlike the Palestinian people they actually have resources and control the flow of aid. Israel has a world class military and both the economic and military backing of the largest military power in the world, whereas the Palestinian people are largely caught between a rock in Israel and a hard place in Hamas+. They aren't the same. The US is likely paying folks hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, to try and figure out the answer to the question you're asking me. Hamas "poked the bear". The bear is now responding. How much is enough? Well, what do you think would happen if Israel just stopped bombing? Do you think Hezbollah would go back into hiding? Do you think Hamas would just walk away? What did Hamas think would happen when they went into Israel and killed 1400 people in the worst attack in Israel's history? I don't think Israel can just stop what they are doing. Because that won't solve the problem or create peace in the region. The only way to start creating peace is to destroy Hamas and Hezbollah. But that can't happen because the Arab world considers them "freedom fighters" or a "resistance group". They don't actually consider them terrorists. Even here in Canada you have people waving Taliban flags, supporting Hamas. Same in the US and Europe. This is why I keep saying peace will never happen. It's been 3000 years. Nothing is going to change until everyone is gone from this earth... Edited October 25, 2023 by Elias Pettersson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) Students in the US consider Hamas to be martyrs... Edited October 25, 2023 by Elias Pettersson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 28 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Yes, demanding and respecting human rights in general over implied bias always makes discussion impossible. Stupid lefty cred narratives OK Hip. Your 'both siding' of this thing would make a MAGA proud. I know thats your thing to be the guy that plays both sides, but there isn't any excuse for what the Gaza leaders did. Yes, the left is falling over itself in some circles to outdo itself. 23 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Students in the US consider Hamas to be martyrs... ahem. @Warhippy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said: Hamas "poked the bear". The bear is now responding. How much is enough? Well, what do you think would happen if Israel just stopped bombing? Do you think Hezbollah would go back into hiding? Do you think Hamas would just walk away? What did Hamas think would happen when they went into Israel and killed 1400 people in the worst attack in Israel's history? I don't think Israel can just stop what they are doing. Because that won't solve the problem or create peace in the region. The only way to start creating peace is to destroy Hamas and Hezbollah. But that can't happen because the Arab world considers them "freedom fighters" or a "resistance group". They don't actually consider them terrorists. Even here in Canada you have people waving Taliban flags, supporting Hamas. Same in the US and Europe. This is why I keep saying peace will never happen. It's been 3000 years. Nothing is going to change until everyone is gone from this earth... I suspect that Israel has been given a 'green light' to do whatever it takes to degrade Hamas to the point that they become irrelevant. There will be innocent people killed. The is what happens in war. The Sunni see Israel as more of an ally than not. After Hamas is wiped out perhaps the PLO can move into Gaza. It appears the PLO leadership thinks peace will bring more opportunity for Palestinians. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said: Even here in Canada you have people waving Taliban flags, supporting Hamas. Same in the US and Europe. I think it is widely known in north america that lists are kept of agent provocateurs. Supporting Palestinian civilians, totally okay and something I too engage in. Supporting enemies of our nation and our allied nations, specifically groups that are on terror watch lists: Those waiving Hamas flags and Hezbollah flags are literally who is being watched on the terror lists. Just saying. When we had protestors in Quebec against roto zero heading to Afghanistan, we simply plucked the folks on the list from the ranks of the protestors and processed them. 9 times out of ten they were foreign bad actors and many instances they were here illegally. Doesn't happen often, but it can and does happen. Those people are not doing themselves any favours for their peaceful lives in Canada going forward. That being said, it is incredibly important to note that a Palestinian flag waiving peace supporter is NOT one of those bad actors, generally. The old white idiot guy in Edmonton or Calgary some weeks back screaming at people rallying in support of the people of Gaza was arrested for good reason. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: OK Hip. Your 'both siding' of this thing would make a MAGA proud. I know thats your thing to be the guy that plays both sides, but there isn't any excuse for what the Gaza leaders did. Yes, the left is falling over itself in some circles to outdo itself. ahem. @Warhippy When the pendulum swings it sure does make people say extreme things. How dare I not choose a side. I'm the same as any maga supporter or extremist for wanting an actual solution I tell ya. Good gods listen to yourself here bud. You're literally proving my every statement about the insanity of partisanship right If you're not with me you're the enemy. You've seen literally thousands of my posts stating just this and my position on things has never wavered yet here you are equating me to a maga supporter. Good for you Edit** Show me a single post by the way that shows me condoning what Hamas has done it excuses it. No no go ahead. I'll get my lefty cred papers ready, or are they maga support papers. I can't tell anymore based on various accusations or statements Edited October 25, 2023 by Warhippy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Warhippy said: When the pendulum swings it sure does make people say extreme things. How dare I not choose a side. I'm the same as any maga supporter or extremist for wanting an actual solution I tell ya. Good gods listen to yourself here bud. You're literally proving my every statement about the insanity of partisanship right If you're not with me you're the enemy. You've seen literally thousands of my posts stating just this and my position on things has never wavered yet here you are equating me to a maga supporter. Good for you Edit** Show me a single post by the way that shows me condoning what Hamas has done it excuses it. No no go ahead. I'm not calling you anything personally, I'm saying the argument you've been using on here is the same 'both siding' that they use. Sure, you can choose not to have a side. But then you go hard after people that have actual lived experience in the region. Thats cool. In your effort to get as close to the middle of the issue as possible, you are glossing over the reality of the situation. We have an ally in Israel, we have an enemy in Hamas terrorists and other Jihadist groups that started this recent conflict with no other goal than to try to get rid of Israel. You can both sides it all you like, but thats whats on the ground. 9 minutes ago, Warhippy said: I'll get my lefty cred papers ready, or are they maga support papers. I can't tell anymore based on various accusations or statements that really hit home huh? Edited October 25, 2023 by Bob Long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 11 hours ago, Ilunga said: I am at that age where my friends are dropping like flys. Lost 2 friends to cancer and heart problems this year, another one was just diagnosed with cancer a month or so ago. At 20- 30 life seems endless, coming up on 60, the days go by like hours. I hear ya, two of my old high school sweeties have recently lost their breasts to cancer and are still ongoing treatment to try to stay alive. fuck cancer. They are going through hell now and from what I can remember, a terrible loss for mankind. Three of my chums have overdosed since i signed up, but that was pretty early on, lately my buddy who was the drug dog guy with Canada Border Services Agency in Victoria had TWO different cancers, the leg one grew when the treated the spinal one and vice versa...just horrible. Took his leg, then his dog who was re-assigned to quebec and then his life. A great friend, a bit older than me didn't even seek treatment, he died of cancer in his house alone becuase he didn't tell anyone. Fuck cancer. sorry to rant, too many loved ones are messed up or gone because of it. my dad had a tumour the size of a fist half in his heart and half in his lungs when he passed away a decade ago. Mind you he chain smoked since he was 7, and we know the correlation now. sigh. I feel ya on this one. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: I'm not calling you anything personally, I'm saying the argument you've been using on here is the same 'both siding' that they use. Sure, you can choose not to have a side. But then you go hard after people that have actual lived experience in the region. Thats cool. In your effort to get as close to the middle of the issue, you are glossing over the reality of the situation. We have an ally in Israel, we have an enemy in Hamas terrorists and other Jihadist groups that started this recent conflict with no other goal than to try to get rid of Israel. You can both sides it all you like, but thats whats on the ground. that really hit home huh? You'd have to be high to assume that "hit home" and that I wasn't pointing out how laughably childish that statement was regarding someone merely calling for a cessation of hostilities and to respect a UN ruling on things in that conflict We are not you and I. Don't do that. This conflict affects me as much as the person in front of me at Subway getting mustard on their sub does. Israeli expansion is very little different in the end than Hamas rockets and leads to the same conclusion. More violence. As for people living through this, keeping in mind my background with my ancestral band being forcibly moved 3 times by our government, my father being forced in to residential schools before being a scoop program candidate and my growing up dealing with the aftermath of both. I have zero experience with the conflict in question but growing up to red for the town and to white for the tribe has sure helped me find some middle ground for most things in life. When I see people vilifying others and making childish and immature statements to justifying their position, simply for the person in question making a statement in common sense. When I see blatantly egregious hypocrisy being thrown out or used for moderation you're gd rights I'm gonna call it out. If you feel some way about that you better reconcile that crap in the mirror son because I don't give a randy shart about your opinion of me and when it all comes out in the wash I'll be proud to say both sides are wrong and neither side is right having been my position the entire time. So don't pretend I have a high enough opinion of anyone here to think that my throwing their childishness and partisanship back at them means they somehow got under my skin. Because dude...I just don't care enough to do much more than point that stuff out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Warhippy said: You'd have to be high to assume that "hit home" and that I wasn't pointing out how laughably childish that statement was regarding someone merely calling for a cessation of hostilities and to respect a UN ruling on things in that conflict We are not you and I. Don't do that. This conflict affects me as much as the person in front of me at Subway getting mustard on their sub does. Israeli expansion is very little different in the end than Hamas rockets and leads to the same conclusion. More violence. As for people living through this, keeping in mind my background with my ancestral band being forcibly moved 3 times by our government, my father being forced in to residential schools before being a scoop program candidate and my growing up dealing with the aftermath of both. I have zero experience with the conflict in question but growing up to red for the town and to white for the tribe has sure helped me find some middle ground for most things in life. When I see people vilifying others and making childish and immature statements to justifying their position, simply for the person in question making a statement in common sense. When I see blatantly egregious hypocrisy being thrown out or used for moderation you're gd rights I'm gonna call it out. If you feel some way about that you better reconcile that crap in the mirror son because I don't give a randy shart about your opinion of me and when it all comes out in the wash I'll be proud to say both sides are wrong and neither side is right having been my position the entire time. So don't pretend I have a high enough opinion of anyone here to think that my throwing their childishness and partisanship back at them means they somehow got under my skin. Because dude...I just don't care enough to do much more than point that stuff out. Hey I see how you avoided the issue at hand, but thats fine. Both sides it is then. Thankfully our leaders don't have this view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Hey I see how you avoided the issue at hand, but thats fine. Both sides it is then. Thankfully our leaders don't have this view. Hey that's cool Just my lefty cred and maga both side-isms at play 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Hamas "poked the bear". The Bear burned down the Hamas house, locked Hamas in a cage with limited food -water , poisoned his well, killed his relatives and then started squatting in the farmhouse next door. I would say both sides have done horrible things to each other. It is well past time to negotiate a 2 state solution. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 39 minutes ago, Bob Long said: . We have an ally in Israel, Yes we definately do... and a pretty good customer for us as well...... But is it ethical for Canada to sell military bombs to a country committing war crimes ? Montreal, May 31, 2022 — Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East (CJPME) is alarmed to learn that Canada’s military exports to Israel increased by 33% in 2021, amid Israel’s 11-day bombing campaign against the occupied Gaza Strip. According to Canada’s newly released annual report on military exports, Canada exported $26,092,288 in military goods to Israel in 2021; up from $19,583,838* in 2020 and approaching the historical high-water mark of $26,893,255* in 1987. This puts Israel in 10th place among Canada’s top twelve non-U.S. destinations for military exports. CJPME calls on Canada to put an immediate halt to this worrying trend by immediately suspending all military trade with Israel. “It is outrageous that Canada’s arms exports to Israel skyrocketed last year, even as Israeli forces were bombing residential buildings in Gaza, assaulting worshippers at the al-Aqsa mosque, and shooting children in the West Bank,” said Michael Bueckert, Vice President of CJPME. “Canadian weapons manufactures should not be contributing to, nor profiting from, Israel’s brutal assault against the Palestinian people,” Bueckert added. Canada’s annual report also shows that a significant portion of Canada’s exports continue to be categorized as explosives or related components ($6,135,094), while other exports appear to be related to Israel’s space program ($5,692,553) and military aircraft ($4,302,801). Canada also oversaw a huge increase in exports within a category which may include weapon sights, bombing computers, or target acquisition components ($6,785,954). CJPME notes that this further raises the possibility that Canadian-made weapons or components could have been used in Israel’s military offensives in Gaza, including airstrikes on residential targets which may amount to war crimes. https://www.cjpme.org/2022_05_31_canada_exports_arms 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 19 minutes ago, moosehead said: The Bear burned down the Hamas house, locked Hamas in a cage with limited food -water , poisoned his well, killed his relatives and then started squatting in the farmhouse next door. I would say both sides have done horrible things to each other. It is well past time to negotiate a 2 state solution. A solution can be negotiated as soon as Hamas is exterminated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, King Heffy said: A solution can be negotiated as soon as Hamas is exterminated. Hamas is not some dude with an AK. Hamas is an ideology......... it will never be eliminated completely. Quickest way to reduce Hamas influence is to negotiate a peace deal, then utilize UN peacekeepers. Edited October 25, 2023 by moosehead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, moosehead said: Yes we definately do... and a pretty good customer for us as well...... But is it ethical for Canada to sell military bombs to a country committing war crimes ? Montreal, May 31, 2022 — Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East (CJPME) is alarmed to learn that Canada’s military exports to Israel increased by 33% in 2021, amid Israel’s 11-day bombing campaign against the occupied Gaza Strip. According to Canada’s newly released annual report on military exports, Canada exported $26,092,288 in military goods to Israel in 2021; up from $19,583,838* in 2020 and approaching the historical high-water mark of $26,893,255* in 1987. This puts Israel in 10th place among Canada’s top twelve non-U.S. destinations for military exports. CJPME calls on Canada to put an immediate halt to this worrying trend by immediately suspending all military trade with Israel. “It is outrageous that Canada’s arms exports to Israel skyrocketed last year, even as Israeli forces were bombing residential buildings in Gaza, assaulting worshippers at the al-Aqsa mosque, and shooting children in the West Bank,” said Michael Bueckert, Vice President of CJPME. “Canadian weapons manufactures should not be contributing to, nor profiting from, Israel’s brutal assault against the Palestinian people,” Bueckert added. Canada’s annual report also shows that a significant portion of Canada’s exports continue to be categorized as explosives or related components ($6,135,094), while other exports appear to be related to Israel’s space program ($5,692,553) and military aircraft ($4,302,801). Canada also oversaw a huge increase in exports within a category which may include weapon sights, bombing computers, or target acquisition components ($6,785,954). CJPME notes that this further raises the possibility that Canadian-made weapons or components could have been used in Israel’s military offensives in Gaza, including airstrikes on residential targets which may amount to war crimes. https://www.cjpme.org/2022_05_31_canada_exports_arms Well, that's a good question. I'd ask who has convicted them of that, who carried it out, and if guilty the ones doing that should be held accountable. I wouldn't change our current policy on an article but I would expect Trudeau to demand an explanation . 2 minutes ago, moosehead said: Hamas is not some dude with an AK. Hamas is an ideology......... it will never be eliminated completely. Some of them are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: Well, that's a good question. I'd ask who has convicted them of that, who carried it out, and if guilty the ones doing that should be held accountable. I wouldn't change our current policy on an article but I would expect Trudeau to demand an explanation . Some of them are. Killling individual Hamas members is like whack a mole. Kill one, another 3 pop up. Killing is not the answer to establishing peace in this region. We have more than enough killing already and do you think it has helped resolve the conflict ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, moosehead said: Killling individual Hamas members is like whack a mole. Kill one, another 3 pop up. Killing is not the answer to establishing peace in this region. We have more than enough killing already and do you think it has helped resolve the conflict ? I don't think we can abstract things this much and find a real on the ground solution. If there was another way to rid Palestinians of their toxic leaders I'd be all for it, but sadly there isn't. In fact Hamas will do all it can to raise the number of Palestinian deaths because they believe outrage helps them. The faster Israel can put them down the better for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, Bob Long said: I don't think we can abstract things this much and find a real on the ground solution. If there was another way to rid Palestinians of their toxic leaders I'd be all for it, but sadly there isn't. In fact Hamas will do all it can to raise the number of Palestinian deaths because they believe outrage helps them. The faster Israel can put them down the better for everyone. You are completely unrealiastic but i guess whatever works for you...... Hamas will try to emulate Hezbollah's relative success, and it is estimated to have as many as 40,000 fighters under arms. (Hamas's ally Palestinian Islamic Jihad is said to have another 15,000 combatants.)2 days ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, moosehead said: You are completely unrealiastic but i guess whatever works for you...... Hamas will try to emulate Hezbollah's relative success, and it is estimated to have as many as 40,000 fighters under arms. (Hamas's ally Palestinian Islamic Jihad is said to have another 15,000 combatants.)2 days ago Yep I certainly could be. I just don't see any other way or have read a viable alternative. I agree in spirit with much of your statements but don't see how we get there given how the world is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 12 minutes ago, moosehead said: Hamas is not some dude with an AK. Hamas is an ideology......... it will never be eliminated completely. Quickest way to reduce Hamas influence is to negotiate a peace deal, then utilize UN peacekeepers. You can't negotiate with the Hamas leadership or treat them like people. Only option is to bomb them or use ground troops to wipe these terrorists off the face of the earth. Then you can negotiate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, King Heffy said: You can't negotiate with the Hamas leadership or treat them like people. Only option is to bomb them or use ground troops to wipe these terrorists off the face of the earth. Then you can negotiate. You are never going to kill 40 K Hamas members. Most likely this current attack by Israel will be creating another 30- 40 K Hamas members..... The Killing needs to stop. Enough blood has been shed. The only ones truly suffering now are innocent women and children....- civilians Edited October 25, 2023 by moosehead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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