King Heffy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, moosehead said: You are never going to kill 40 K Hamas members. Most likely this current attack by Israel will be creating another 30- 40 K Hamsas members..... The Killing needs to stop. Enough blood has been shed. The only ones truly suffering now are innocent women and children....- civilians And it's Hamas inflicting the suffering on both sides. Israel needs to make it clear that they'll stop the attacks as soon as the Palestinians wipe out their vermin. You actually trust Hamas to act like actual people even after a hypothetical peace deal? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, King Heffy said: And it's Hamas inflicting the suffering on both sides. Israel needs to make it clear that they'll stop the attacks as soon as the Palestinians wipe out their vermin. You actually trust Hamas to act like actual people even after a hypothetical peace deal? I don't trust either side at all. Both sides have proven themselves to be dishonest. UN peacekeepers will be needed to keep the 2 sides apart from other. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, moosehead said: I don't trust either side at all. Both sides have proven themselves to be dishonest. UN peacekeepers will be needed to keep the 2 sides apart from other. And Hamas can't be trusted to not kidnap the peacekeepers. This group simply cannot be permitted to exist. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 19 minutes ago, moosehead said: UN peacekeepers will be needed to keep the 2 sides apart from other. So I would certainly support this. But what happens when Hamas attacks UN peacekeepers, what kind of response will you be comfortable with given how we know Hamas does things like uses human shields? Also, whats the alternative if Russia veto's the mission? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoff Beered Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 47 minutes ago, moosehead said: Hamas is not some dude with an AK. Hamas is an ideology......... it will never be eliminated completely. Quickest way to reduce Hamas influence is to negotiate a peace deal, then utilize UN peacekeepers. Negotiate with whom? The historical record is pretty clear, the Palestinians have rejected every peace deal, they're not interested in a two state solution, they want Isreal gone. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Students in the US consider Hamas to be martyrs... To be clear, this appears to be the work of GWU students who were unauthorized to do so by the University. Just in case anyone was thinking the University itself was responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 34 minutes ago, moosehead said: You are never going to kill 40 K Hamas members. Most likely this current attack by Israel will be creating another 30- 40 K Hamas members..... The Killing needs to stop. Enough blood has been shed. The only ones truly suffering now are innocent women and children....- civilians One needs to at least give it the ol’ college try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: One needs to at least give it the ol’ college try. Oh they are.... but the issue is how many innocent women and children will also be casualities.... I am very much against violence to innocent women and children. How many orphans will now be motivated to join Hamas... The cycle of killing continues. This only benefits Hamas and Israel current leadership..... power is retained. Edited October 25, 2023 by moosehead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odd. Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 21 hours ago, Playoff Beered said: Yes they have access to missiles, thousands of them have been launched by their military that you claim they don't have. Plenty of Palestinian officials have made genocidal statements and you know it. Totally irrelevant to anything being discussed, or as you would say, weak and ignorant. Please cite Palestinian officials making genocidal comments (not Hamas). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 WASHINGTON – Israel has agreed to delay its invasion of Gaza until the United States can position missile defenses to protect against a predicted uptick in Iran-backed terror attacks on American troops in the region. The air defense systems could be in place by the latter part of this week, defense officials say. The Israeli delay was first reported by the Wall Street Journal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 I think Moosehead makes a good point when it comes to "wiping out Hamas". We've seen time and again that when you "eliminate" such a group, a different, but equally militant group always seems to arise from the ashes. I honestly don't believe there is a military solution to this problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, moosehead said: WASHINGTON – Israel has agreed to delay its invasion of Gaza until the United States can position missile defenses to protect against a predicted uptick in Iran-backed terror attacks on American troops in the region. The air defense systems could be in place by the latter part of this week, defense officials say. The Israeli delay was first reported by the Wall Street Journal. Maybe bring in some aid for the Gazans in the meantime too? I support the air defence placement pause as well. Hopefully less people die in the short term and aid can be rendered where it ought to be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 hour ago, moosehead said: Hamas is not some dude with an AK. Hamas is an ideology......... it will never be eliminated completely. Quickest way to reduce Hamas influence is to negotiate a peace deal, then utilize UN peacekeepers. more than a dozen times Hamas has come out killing and murdering and when they are hit back they scream foul...work out a peace deal and rearm, find more martyrs and then they go again. There is no peace with the Hamas, whose open agenda is the eradication of the state of Israel and the murdering of all the jews in the middle east. Did you not see the brutality of the opening attack on Oct 7th? That was just rhetorical, i know you are aware, and pretty intelligent. What I can't really figure out is the best end game for this round of fighting: Does Israel simply turn northern Gaza Strip into a parking lot and then allow peaceful non combatants to leave the south for processing in the parking lot...it would be a HUGE undertaking to sift through more than 2 million people, but in times when Hamas isn't murdering Israeli's, Gazans were vetted and allowed into Israel for work, or medical reasons et cetera. I wonder if there is any universe in which the good people of Gaza could be separated from the Terrorists that are their Governmment? How many would want to go if that was set up? In my mind, the West Bank is the logical spot to move them to, at least while Hamas is dealt with. There needs to be a humanitarian corridor set up so that the innocent can flee Gaza. Leaving Hamas in Gaza with the 2 million people is not any path to peace, only a short time out while Hamas builds more rockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 10 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: Maybe bring in some aid for the Gazans in the meantime too? I support the air defence placement pause as well. Hopefully less people die in the short term and aid can be rendered where it ought to be. France is sending a ship with aid to the eastern mediteranean, from what I undstand Macron said today. I still think it is up to Egypt to allow the aid in to Gaza. I don't believe for a moment that Israel has any onus to do anything for Gaza until Hamas, the government of Gaza, lays down its arms. I know that is upsetting but I just honestly don't think Israel wants or needs to do anything further to help Gaza until Gaza rejects Hamas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: more than a dozen times Hamas has come out killing and murdering and when they are hit back they scream foul...work out a peace deal and rearm, find more martyrs and then they go again. There is no peace with the Hamas, whose open agenda is the eradication of the state of Israel and the murdering of all the jews in the middle east. Did you not see the brutality of the opening attack on Oct 7th? That was just rhetorical, i know you are aware, and pretty intelligent. What I can't really figure out is the best end game for this round of fighting: Does Israel simply turn northern Gaza Strip into a parking lot and then allow peaceful non combatants to leave the south for processing in the parking lot...it would be a HUGE undertaking to sift through more than 2 million people, but in times when Hamas isn't murdering Israeli's, Gazans were vetted and allowed into Israel for work, or medical reasons et cetera. I wonder if there is any universe in which the good people of Gaza could be separated from the Terrorists that are their Governmment? How many would want to go if that was set up? In my mind, the West Bank is the logical spot to move them to, at least while Hamas is dealt with. There needs to be a humanitarian corridor set up so that the innocent can flee Gaza. Leaving Hamas in Gaza with the 2 million people is not any path to peace, only a short time out while Hamas builds more rockets. When you confine 2 million people to be caged into ghetto with limited food, water, electricity. Zero hope for a future. A violent ideology will arise...... I believe 50% of gaza citizens are under 25 yr old... Hamas is a symptom. The cause needs to be treated to ever eliminate violent counter insurgency from Gaza.... People need to be free and with basic human needs met... See a future. Peace. This is the ONLY way forward. Israel can not kill and murder their way to peace.... Those of you that condone killing - shame on you. Edited October 25, 2023 by moosehead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, moosehead said: When you confine 2 million people to be caged into ghetto with limited food, water, electricity. Zero hope for a future. A violent ideology will arise...... Hamas is a symptom. The cause needs to be treated to ever eliminate violent counter insurgency from Gaza.... People need to be free and with basic human needs met... See a future. Peace. This is the ONLY way forward. Israel can not kill and murder their way to peace.... Cart, meet horse: the violent ideology's specific campaigns of violence precipitate every single event that led to the current Gaza border Fences. everyone has been back and forth on this for 126 pages now. If we can't agree that Hamas needs to cease its attempts to destroy israel, how can we possibly expect the folks in the Middle east to come any agreement on it? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: Cart, meet horse: the violent ideology's specific campaigns of violence precipitate every single event that led to the current Gaza border Fences. everyone has been back and forth on this for 126 pages now. If we can't agree that Hamas needs to cease its attempts to destroy israel, how can we possibly expect the folks in the Middle east to come any agreement on it? Oh I think we all agree Hamas needs to stop using violence to achieve its aims. I don't see anyone here not wanting this. I think we disagree though on how Israel should be behaving going forward. Some of us prefer non violence - others here propose revenge killings of Hamas members ..... and the killing of innocent women and children by bombing buildings. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Hamas doesn't want peace, they want the whole thing. That struggle against reality is the root of every individual right now in Gaza and in Israel suffering today, October 25th 2023. With some luck, maybe the Gazans will start to want to side with peace and prosperity and give up Hamas once the ground work begins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: If we can't agree that Israel needs to cease its attempts to settle Palestinian land, how can we possibly expect the folks in the Middle east to come any agreement on it? Shall we address this issue as well? Or are we going to continue down this same path? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, moosehead said: Oh I think we all agree Hamas needs to stop using violence to achieve its aims. I don't see anyone here not wanting this. I think we disagree though on how Israel should be behaving going forward. Some of us prefer non violence - others here propose revenge killings of Hamas members ..... and the killing of innocent women and children by bombing buildings. I would be thrilled to tears and dancing if Hamas would surrender alive. That too is a non reality from the experience of history. Hopefully a lot of them decide not to die for their cause, but I haven't seen it historically in the nature of the group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddikulus Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, moosehead said: When you confine 2 million people to be caged into ghetto with limited food, water, electricity. Zero hope for a future. A violent ideology will arise...... I believe 50% of gaza citizens are under 25 yr old... Hamas is a symptom. The cause needs to be treated to ever eliminate violent counter insurgency from Gaza.... People need to be free and with basic human needs met... See a future. Peace. This is the ONLY way forward. Israel can not kill and murder their way to peace.... Those of you that condone killing - shame on you. Of course they can, humans throughout history have ethnically cleansed entire populations to appropriate their lands. The same will happen with Palestine, it will just happen slower in the digital age than it did in more ancient times. Future generations will look at us the same way we do our ancestors who appropriated lands, destroyed cultures and killed people justifying all of it with arguments quite similar to "what were we supposed to do" and "they poked the bear". Edited October 25, 2023 by Riddikulus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said: I would be thrilled to tears and dancing if Hamas would surrender alive. That too is a non reality from the experience of history. Hopefully a lot of them decide not to die for their cause, but I haven't seen it historically in the nature of the group. Do you think they. have a Hamas tattoo on their forehead. They will simply dress as civilians and slip through security. 40 K Hamas members will simply melt into civilian members.... You can not kill an ideology by bombing it. Peace is the only way forward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, moosehead said: Do you think they. have a Hamas tattoo on their forehead. They will simply dress as civilians and slip through security. 40 K Hamas members will simply melt into civilian members.... You can not kill an ideology by bombing it. Peace is the only way forward. Cool. Peace brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, Riddikulus said: Of course they can, humans throughout history have ethnically cleansed entire populations to appropriate their lands. The same will happen with Palestine, it will just happen slower it in the digital age than it did in more ancient times. Future generations will look at us the same way we do our ancestors who appropriated lands, destroyed cultures and killed people justifying all of it with arguments quite similar to "what were we supposed to do" and "they poked the bear". 2 million gaza citizens can not be murdered in 2023. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, moosehead said: 2 million gaza citizens can not be murdered in 2023. Not with that attitude. But if you just continue to settle their land, they won't have to be murdered at all will they? They'll just kind of cease to exist. Look at canada or the US and our lost tribes of the first nations people and even closer to home the lost tribes of the PNW. Move enough out to move move enough in and eventually the issue just goes away 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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