Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

Hamas has a constitution.  Its first line of doctrine is not to have a free state, peace or freedom for its people? 

 

  

 

I retain my call for Israel to follow the rule of law. I also encourage those in this thread concerned about Israeli behaviour, like myself, to continue to raise that concern. I also ask where is the solution? Its one thing to call for a two state solution. Obliterating Gaza will also be illegal. It remains a problem when this is your opposition! 

 

As opposed to obliterating Gaza? Its my wish that behaving within the rule of law can give pause.  For new leadership to rise amongst Palestinians. As I believe that many, or most have no choice when they are ruled without voice, by the butt end of a gun.  Yet would be happy to live in a two state world, if their own survival in Gaza did not exist as living under Hamas. Its a hard ask when Hamas is crossing borders and committing atrocities. 

 

Its a hard ask when Hamas's leader, his key role that landed him in jail was not the 3 Israeli's he killed. It was the twenty odd, documented, Palestinians he slaughtered for harbouring views against attacking Israel militantly. I view Netanyahu as a problem. I view Yahya Sinwar as I do Igor Girkin in Russia.   The bloodthirst behind Hamas.

 

 

Apparently given life three times, a decision I am sure regretted today?

 

https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/10/20/a-fateful-decision-not-to-assassinate-hamas-leader-comes-back-to-haunt-israel/

https://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-gaza-leader-survived-tumor-operation-israel-reports-2023-10

Mr. Sinwar was released in 2011, the most senior of 1,100 Palestinian prisoners that Israel exchanged for one of its soldiers, Gilad Shalit, who had been captured by Hamas in a cross-border raid in 2006.17 Oct 2023

 

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-gaza-war-israel-hamas-war-yahya-sinwar-after-24-years-in-israel-jail-he-went-on-to-lead-hamas-attacks-4484677

 

I pray for Jewish hostages.  I pray for restraint.  Even though I am not religious'; call it a a spiritual request, wish for a miracle. 

 

How do you negotiate another such deal to release prisoners?  

[Canuck Surfer]

46 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Heard on the radio that Saudi Arabia intercepted a missile that was headed to Israel (fired from Yemen). Are the Saudi Arabians actually helping out Israel? 

 

There is civil war in Yemen. Actually a much more significant conflict than Israel, world news notwithstanding. At least to date?

 

One side backed by Sunni Saudi Arabia.  They will, I'm sure, shoot down any missile fired by Iranian backed opposition (if that is the best description)? Saudi Arabia on the verge of peace, at least acknowledging Israel & working with diplomatically has been a pending move by the Kingdom this year.  But I suspect the missile was shot down in due course, because of its origin. 

 

The US, from a warship in the Gulf, also destroyed missiles fired from Yemen aimed towards Israel. Last week. 

 

It could also be argued for shooting them down, simply to avoid escalation.  

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

I think Moosehead makes a good point when it comes to "wiping out Hamas".

 

We've seen time and again that when you "eliminate" such a group, a different, but equally militant group always seems to arise from the ashes. I honestly don't believe there is a military solution to this problem.

 

True, absolutely, short term.

 

Mid term, people may (WILL) disagree that the solution is to make Gaza a N Korea. Blockade already in place, apparently the walls not thick enough?  In reality they are under siege, not because Israel wants to oppress Palestinian people.  They left in 2006 as per an agreement.  Then were, like other agreements, attacked immediately thereafter. Gaza is not occupied by israel. Its under blockade due to the activities of its Hamas leaders.

 

Mid term, Israel has also taken up larger scale retaliation roughly every 10 or 15 years of its existence. War in Lebanon, attacks on the West Bank, return missile strikes in Gaza all somewhat small. When escalations like this occur; Israel uses it as an opportunity to wipe a significant % of the militant groups they are surrounded by. 

 

 

I like @moosehead 's comment about investing in a better life for Palestinians? Perhaps a movement to replace Hamas by moderates may have more momentum! Yet that won't be allowed unless Israel actually overtakes all of Gaza militarily. Then tries to build it up as happened in Germany & Japan. Cough as failed in Afghanistan, Iraq, got chopped at the knee's in Vietnam. None of this changes that Hamas rules Gaza militarily.  That Palestinian kids have to join, or their parents shop gets ransacked. I also agree with assessment that Bibi has to go, but its not the larger problem.

 

At least Bibi can, and may (hopefully) be voted out. Yet Hamas would have been accumulating their strength regardless. Just gave them excuses. He leads a coalition that has militants, won elections in large part by harnessing the tensions between opposing groups. At least he can be elected out. In Gaza that is not the case. Those that feed the arms and run the black markets, tunnels in Gaza have a much deeper vested interest in status quo. No country, and there are many in the ME / Africa? Countries who are lead by militant groups who make corrupt wealth segregating, thereby impoverishing their own people.

 

Places like Syria, Ruanda, Libya, Afghanistan, Sudan, Palestine, Yemen etc., will not rise from their oppression and poverty while lead by tyrants.    

 

 

 

[moosehead]

Seems like UN Secretary actually thinks like a few  of us here.....  hmmmm.

 

 

 

Israel has demanded that the UN's secretary general retract comments he made about the Gaza war and apologise.

 

António Guterres said in a speech to the Security Council on Tuesday that he condemned unequivocally Hamas's deadly attacks in Israel two weeks ago but that they "did not happen in a vacuum".

Israeli ambassador Gilad Erdan accused him of "justifying terrorism" and called for his immediate resignation.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67215620

Edited October 26, 2023 by moosehead

[RomanPer]

10 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Ah ok.  So this is different because it's a different set of paperwork and agreements but we're still relying on ancient maps and conquered lands to justify our position but it's different.

 

Because various paperwork exists regarding Palestinian and Israeli borders settlements and such.  

 

But it's good to know where things stand

 

So with that in mind just leave donbas and crimea alone and call it a day right?

 

This is different or?

What are you talking about? You are just throwing unrelated things together and want an answer that fits your narrative. Exactly the same way you were asking about “anti Israel” vs “antisemitism”. I’m done answering completely fabricated questions that have no basis in anything. Sayonara.

[RomanPer]

6 hours ago, moosehead said:

 

I don't trust either side at all.  Both sides have proven themselves to be dishonest.    UN peacekeepers will be needed to keep the 2 sides apart from other. 

Peacekeepers can’t use weapons. How are they going to stop terrorists crossing into Israel? Ask them nicely to stop?

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Here is an extremely polite; but significantly even more pointed Jewish view.  

 

This delves much more deeply into the anthropology of the area; using biblical & historical reference, also the Quran. Noting formations of people as 'Palestinian' also occurred well after Jerusalem's holiest of places for Christians and Jews were relevant. That formation for Al Aqsa being a holy site, 3rd most relevant in Muslim doctrine as place of rising for Muhammad, is cited albeit as occurring almost 1500 years later than original relevance to for Jewish people. 

 

I mentioned polite. It is. This does not claim to exclude Muslims' from Jerusalem.  Has no calls for militance in any way? Kind of passes on Jewish violence while not denying it. Takes umbrage of violence against Jews far exceeding suffrage by Palestinian people even not mentioning Holocaust. Also other peoples in current Muslim countries. Examples included Jewish peoples being ethnically cleansed* from places like Morocco since 1948. Christians from Iraq, more than 2 Million just the last few decades.  Both equivalent to more than 95% of these regions association with specific cultural groups being wiped out. Is concerned about lack of access to Temple Mount & other holy sites. This poster effectively concludes, without saying so, Palestinian scale a convenient use of the word ethnic cleansing. 

 

His point that Jewish people are committed to their own people, not wiping out or even excluding Palestinian. At least there is no mention of it!  Simply their argument.

 

 

* I have noted concern for crimes against Palestinians'.  Yet made the same argument of significantly larger scale, not any reference to Palestinian one's being untrue, crimes even against other Muslim sects.  By groups currently associated with & connected to Hamas. Other primarily militantly held Islamic nations. All in the most recent 30 years. This video mentions those by Muslims against non Muslim cultures. I discussed crimes of Muslim's attacking other Muslims. Convenient for Muslim countries to call Jewish activities genocide, when such activities are almost commonplace even amongst each other. I, of course want all such crimes exterminated.

 

Of course also genocide inferred against Jews as a rally cry does make it Antisemitism in my opinion. As its without regard for Jewish peace also. They are happy to kill each other; but it is not fair when its Jews... 

 

I’ve discovered this guy’s channel just a few days ago and absolutely love it. His delivery of the message is very on point.

[Canuck Surfer]

On 10/23/2023 at 11:27 PM, RomanPer said:

 

No, he's simply very angry with the October 7th attack. Yoav Gallant is a decorated officer and has to talk tough based on his position. How much did you know about him before October 7th?

 

I read about him years ago when he was on trial.  But that is vague. I couldnèt say I paid attentionÉ 

 

Gallant became closer to top of mind when i doubted, initially, Israel was behind reporter Shareen Abu Aqla's being shot in the headÉ In a CDC thread last spring.  A guy in one of my hockey pools brought him, and other issues up. RW extremists, Marches, settlers attacking Palestinians. Then again after Novembers election. He made doomsday predictions based on Gallant & other power brokers. Which came trueÉ  Gallant & others had always played the heavy hand. 

 

There has been a degree of contempt. 

[Canuck Surfer]

18 hours ago, Warhippy said:

 

Are we arguing Israel is now just exercising it's right to historical lands?  Or that the conquered lands should remain with the conquerer?

 

Ok

 

So you've no problem with that?

Cool.

 

Just gonna leave this here and find out how or why this is different.

 

 

This argument is pretty simplistic.

 

Many cultures 'ruled' parts of these territories before or after the Russian Empire. In hotbed places like Ukraine, Latvia, Poland before and after, as well as parts in-between.  This map I believe just before WWI and not including our discussed territories.  WWI is known as the end of the Empires.  Imperial conquerors also shrunk exponentially. 

 

Palestinian and Arab groups in these same time frames were accused of moving Jewish inhabitants off these same lands. Jews were a minority? However there, in what is now Palestine & Israel. Before current accusation of Israel for their expulsion. Have had Jordanian & Egyptian conquerors weigh in as well. Currently lots of militant groups still seek opportunity. 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

13 hours ago, Boudrias said:

After Hamas is wiped out perhaps the PLO can move into Gaza. It appears the PLO leadership thinks peace will bring more opportunity for Palestinians.    

 

PLO?  

 

I think most have now splintered as Palestinian Authority? Probably some still wield money, provide money and some influence to avoid extinction. Don't hold great ideological or effective control over military, police. Fatah groups still existing but ATM de facto power is all held by Hamas.  I think...

 

I am not an expert, so others please step in if this is not nail to the head.  Nor is raising the PLO back from the ashes a good idea?  It was a militant group as nasty as Hamas when effective.

 

Seeded power to Hamas when they tried to negotiate peace. My view the real power brokers were ready to take their corrupt millions, billions and sleep? Hamas among others wanting next up opportunity. 

[Sharpshooter]

 

[Odd.]

15 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Last I checked, in Gaza Hamas was the Palestinian officials.

Ah yes, so you don’t have a source. 
 

Also, Hamas aren’t actual officials of Palestine. The Palestine Liberation Organization are the actual ones who are reporting directly to the UN. 
 

You literally don’t know what you’re talking about. 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Odd. said:

Ah yes, so you don’t have a source. 
 

Also, Hamas aren’t actual officials of Palestine. The Palestine Liberation Organization are the actual ones who are reporting directly to the UN. 
 

You literally don’t know what you’re talking about. 

 

so which group is preventing elections in Gaza? 

[RomanPer]

6 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

so which group is preventing elections in Gaza? 

Wait, did he just say that PLO are the official representatives of Palestinians? Lol. He has no clue what he’s talking about but presents himself as know it all expert  

[Bob Long]

Good article here on how Hamas ended up with control of Gaza:

 

The election that led to Hamas taking over Gaza

 

The death toll amid Israel’s devastating campaign against the Islamist group Hamas in Gaza is soaring. More than two weeks after Hamas militants orchestrated their appalling strike on southern Israel, killing more than 1,400 people in a slaughter unprecedented in Israeli history, Israeli bombing and raids have killed at least 5,087 Palestinians in Gaza, including more than 2,000 children, according to local authorities. Those numbers are bound to rise as Israel ramps up its offensive.

 

Israel’s boosters reason away the hideous collateral damage as an inevitable fact of a conflict in which a rogue enemy operates in zones crammed with civilians. Innocent Palestinians, wrote Robert Satloff, executive director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, are “caught between the hammer of Hamas’ atrocity and the anvil of Israel’s rightful retribution.”

 

 

Others in Israel and elsewhere have been even less sympathetic. They cast the more than 2 million people living in the Gaza Strip — a territory subjected to an immiserating economic blockade for the past 16 years — as accomplices to Hamas, which has held sway in Gaza since capturing it in 2007 from rival Palestinian factions.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-election-hamas-2006-palestine-israel/

 

 

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

Wait, did he just say that PLO are the official representatives of Palestinians? Lol. He has no clue what he’s talking about but presents himself as know it all expert  

 

its painfully clear which organization needs to be focused on for any hope of peace. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Bob Long

[Optimist Prime]

boo, video link didn't carry over.

 

[Odd.]

15 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

so which group is preventing elections in Gaza? 

Hamas took control over Gaza. They weren’t actually voted in like Israel falsely claims. A small minority that voted for Hamas were influenced by propaganda. When the true intentions were revealed, Palestinians revolted, and Hamas started killing the Fatah supporters. PNA’s (the Fatah) were the actual “governors” if you will of Palestine. Hamas is a militant group, so yeah, it is irrelevant to the discussion that valid Palestinian sources come from the PLO, which is directly linked with UN as well as other international organizations. 
 

So, @Playoff Beered and his false claims that recognized and credible Palestinian officials have called for a complete extermination of Jewish and Israeli people is yet another attempt to quite literally undermine the actual existence of an entire nation to somehow justify the carpet bombing of millions. 
 

Meanwhile, I have provided literally top to bottom evidence of Israeli officials and armed forces quite literally pleading for genocide of Palestinians, using words similar to what Nazi Germany used on their own people, using terms such as “human animals”, “filth” and so on. 

[Odd.]

If Israel really cares about freeing its hostages, why are they carpet bombing potential holdouts? They do wish to actually rescue these hostages… right?

 

They want to eradicate Hamas right? and not civilians? The goal is to not kill civilians but they could end up as collateral (just another word to justify killing innocence). Okay great. 

So why bomb sanitation places? Why bomb media stations quite like the one that obliterated an Al Jazeera’s journalist entire family just yesterday. Why bomb schools full of injured and sick children that resulted  in a 10 year old boys face, both legs, and urinary organs COMPLETELY blown out of his body, again just yesterday. Is this what collateral is supposed to be? “Oh, there might be 1 Hamas guy there, let’s completely carpet fuck that whole street block and kill another 150 children in the process”.

 

Instead of sitting in a 5 by 5 room with a large screen clicking buttons that fires missiles onto wherever the hell like it’s Call of Duty, if you really did care about finding and eradicating Hamas and freeing your hostages, SEND OUT THE MILITARY. Go into Gaza and find them! Go door to door if you have to, why not, Gaza is already occupied. Go in there and save your people if you actually cared about them. Why do you need to completely carpet fuck an entire neighborhood?

[Bob Long]

9 minutes ago, Odd. said:

If Israel really cares about freeing its hostages, why are they carpet bombing potential holdouts? They do wish to actually rescue these hostages… right?

 

They want to eradicate Hamas right? and not civilians? The goal is to not kill civilians but they could end up as collateral (just another word to justify killing innocence). Okay great. 

So why bomb sanitation places? Why bomb media stations quite like the one that obliterated an Al Jazeera’s journalist entire family just yesterday. Why bomb schools full of injured and sick children that resulted  in a 10 year old boys face, both legs, and urinary organs COMPLETELY blown out of his body, again just yesterday. Is this what collateral is supposed to be? “Oh, there might be 1 Hamas guy there, let’s completely carpet fuck that whole street block and kill another 150 children in the process”.

 

Instead of sitting in a 5 by 5 room with a large screen clicking buttons that fires missiles onto wherever the hell like it’s Call of Duty, if you really did care about finding and eradicating Hamas and freeing your hostages, SEND OUT THE MILITARY. Go into Gaza and find them! Go door to door if you have to, why not, Gaza is already occupied. Go in there and save your people if you actually cared about them. Why do you need to completely carpet fuck an entire neighborhood?

 

Sadly because the tactics terrorist groups use hide tunnels and personnel in those types of places. Reducing the a significant number of those places can be done by air.

 

What real alternative does Israel have right now?

 

And all signs point to a ground movement coming soon.

 

[Bob Long]

27 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Hamas took control over Gaza. They weren’t actually voted in like Israel falsely claims. A small minority that voted for Hamas were influenced by propaganda. When the true intentions were revealed, Palestinians revolted, and Hamas started killing the Fatah supporters. PNA’s (the Fatah) were the actual “governors” if you will of Palestine. Hamas is a militant group, so yeah, it is irrelevant to the discussion that valid Palestinian sources come from the PLO, which is directly linked with UN as well as other international organizations. 
 

So, @Playoff Beered and his false claims that recognized and credible Palestinian officials have called for a complete extermination of Jewish and Israeli people is yet another attempt to quite literally undermine the actual existence of an entire nation to somehow justify the carpet bombing of millions. 
 

Meanwhile, I have provided literally top to bottom evidence of Israeli officials and armed forces quite literally pleading for genocide of Palestinians, using words similar to what Nazi Germany used on their own people, using terms such as “human animals”, “filth” and so on. 

 

But they were voted in initially. The only hope Palestinians have to get rid of them is Israel at this point.

[Odd.]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Sadly because the tactics terrorist groups use hide tunnels and personnel in those types of places. Reducing the a significant number of those places can be done by air.

 

What real alternative does Israel have right now?

 

And all signs point to a ground movement coming soon.

 

Hamas are vermin, they will use Palestinians as human shields and pieces to their own chess game. Unfortunately, there will be casualties, on both sides, that is war.
 

Israel is more than capable of mapping out potential hideouts, especially with the help of the US. Unfortunately, they don’t seem to have a problem with bombing and using missiles as it’s been far convenient for them. 
 

However, I wouldn’t doubt Israeli soldiers going in and just killing Palestinians regardless. They’ve killed nearly 100 Palestinians since this war in the West Bank and there’s no Hamas. I find it highly unlikely IDF will show any type of humanity to the innocent children of Palestine, which make up roughly 59-65% of their entire population.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Odd.

[Odd.]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

But they were voted in initially. The only hope Palestinians have to get rid of them is Israel at this point.

Yes, but I highly doubt IDF is prioritizing killing Hamas in a full ground scale assault. More like what they call a “nakba”.

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Hamas are vermin, they will use Palestinians as human shields and pieces to their own chess game. Unfortunately, there will be casualties, on both sides, that is war.
 

Israel is more than capable of mapping out potential hideouts, especially with the help of the US. Unfortunately, they don’t seem to have a problem with bombing and using missiles as it’s been far convenient for them. 
 

However, I wouldn’t doubt Israeli soldiers going in and just killing Palestinians regardless. They’ve killed nearly 100 Palestinians since this war in the West Bank and there’s no Hamas. I find it highly unlikely IDF will show any type of humanity to the innocent children of Palestine, which make up roughly 59-65% of their entire population.

 

Yeah I have no doubt we will see some ugly stuff.

 

My hope is at the end of the day Hamas is tossed both physically and ideologically.

[Optimist Prime]

Looks like a quiet, relatively quiet, 24 hours in the West Bank after Israeli security forces have arrested 660 people there with ties to Hamas amongst a larger group of about 1000 people since the Oct 7th Massacre. 

 

The only 'blip' on my map for the west bank in the previous day is this one.

 

6 hours ago 

Israeli army says troops have arrested some 1,000 wanted Palestinians across the West Bank, including more than 660 affiliated with Hamas, since the war began on Oct. 7. Overnight, 46 Hamas members were detained

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Yes, but I highly doubt IDF is prioritizing killing Hamas in a full ground scale assault. More like what they call a “nakba”.

 

I was reading this am that an approach similar to Mozul and ridding that place of Isis might be the way it is handled.