Hamas attacking Israel

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

I was reading this am that an approach similar to Mozul and ridding that place of Isis might be the way it is handled.

That was a long long campaign in Ninevah. Sounds like the ground work is going to be a patient lengthy endeavour.

[Optimist Prime]

Yesterday Israel announce that a 1000 meter zone inside the edge of the Gaza fence will be considered a combat zone going forward, I am hopefull more leaflets are dropped so the farmers are aware. There was one major incursion so far  since that announcement:

 

11 hours ago - 

The Israeli army tonight carried out an unusual and extensive ground raid of infantry and armored forces inside the Gaza Strip. The raid was larger in scope and depth inside Gaza. Its purpose is to attack Hamas targets from within the Strip, and to strengthen the defense. This is a more extensive operation than the raids carried out so far in the last two weeks in the Gaza Strip

[Odd.]

On 10/25/2023 at 12:21 AM, Elias Pettersson said:

Here is a review and a history of the land including a map for easy reference…

 

From 1000-925 B.C this area was conglomeration of Canaan cities. It was not the Palestinian state. 
These were Jews. 

Before the Kingdom of Israel there was Judea, not the Palestinian state.

Before the Empire of Babylon there was Judea, not the Palestinian State.

Then there was the Persian Empire, not the Palestinian State.

Then Alexander of Macedonia ( Alexander the Great) came and continued his father’s King Filip of Macedonian. There was no such thing as the Palestinian state.

After Alexander there was Roman Empire and not the Palestinian State.

After Roman Empire there was the Byzantium Empire, not the Palestinian state.

After Byzantium Empire came Islamic State of Egypt. Not the Palestinian State. 

After Islamic State of Egypt came the Ottoman Empire, not the Palestinian State. 

After the fall of the Ottoman Empire came the British Mandate.

After WW2, British Mandate returned the land back to Israel.

There was never the Palestinian State.
You don’t need Harvard degree for this.

 

The Jewish people then are not the same type of Jewish people that are occupying this space today. These are Zionists. They are using a 3000 year old book to claim that this piece of land was their god given and that all Jews should come over to their birthright piece of land. MAJORITY of the Jewish people today actually don’t come from Israel.
 

Meanwhile Palestinians have lived there since before the Ottomon period as secular Arabs and were recognized within that subculture of Arabs as the state of Palestine. During the Roman Empire, Arabs of that specific area which are modern day Palestinians were persecuted for being Muslim.  They have been living there for HUNDREDS of years.
 

Why should a scattered and differing religion/race with different subcultures of Judaism from all over the world all of sudden displace millions of what has become ethnic Arab people because 3000 years ago your race of people happened to stumble upon a piece of land and claim it as ONLY their piece of land and then put it in a book? Especially when the Bible and the Quran also mention Jerusalem as its holy place. With this logic, let’s have every Catholic return to modern day Italy, France, Romania, Greece, Turkey, Tunisia, Lebanon, Ukraine, Slovenia, Switzerland, Libya etc and establish one gigantic Catholic empire and occupy and genocide thousands of people who aren’t catholic because “oh that’s where Catholicism started from”!!! 

When you have Jewish people against Zionist ideology and are calling out Israel’s genocide of Palestinians, perhaps it calls for a more in depth discussion about the true priorities of Zionism. Are they really all about providing Jews all over the globe a place where they can be free, or are they just there to push Jewish supremacy due to newfound sympathy from WW2? Why is it that Israel has a derogatory term used for non, coloured and secular Jews called “goyim”? They call any type of Jewish person who is not Jewish presenting as goyim. Ethiopian Jews, Ugandan Jews, Spanish Jews, Brazilian Jews etc in which they used Zionist propaganda to convert them into Jewish people in the first place but don’t want them actually assimilating to their own dogmatic version of Zionist ideology that fundamentally goes against their teachings. 
 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Odd.

[Warhippy]

11 hours ago, RomanPer said:

What are you talking about? You are just throwing unrelated things together and want an answer that fits your narrative. Exactly the same way you were asking about “anti Israel” vs “antisemitism”. I’m done answering completely fabricated questions that have no basis in anything. Sayonara.

No you're not.  Calm down.  Me pointing out how blatantly hypocritical your position is shouldn't have you so up in arms and clutching your pearls.

 

If it does figure out why and do some reflection on it.

 

Anyone who uses the tragic and often ridiculous "it's ancestral land" argument in Israel ignores so much actual history then IMMEDIATELY ignores they are usually living in land that was previously part of a conquered nation or part of a former empire.  Case in point right now Ukraine.  The mere suggestion that Israel is justified in their continued expansion and settlement with the slow annexation and inevitable take over of everything formerly designated palestinian land also suggests that Russia is justified in their takeover of Crimea, or that their current war against Ukraine is justified and for the SAME REASONS.

 

You don't get to argue for one and against the other without looking like a hypocrite.  This again sir; is not anti semitism.  This is pointing out the blatant hypocrisy shown in so many arguments here and people don't like their crap being called out nothing more.

 

So if this bugs you that's fine.  There's a reason it does and that should be clearly reflected by your outrage on one hand and your allowance on the other

 

Edit.  You still never once answered if being against Israels expansionist policy in your eyes meant a person was anti semitic.  You labeled me as such but still never answered that question.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Warhippy

[Warhippy]

6 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This argument is pretty simplistic.

 

Many cultures 'ruled' parts of these territories before or after the Russian Empire. In hotbed places like Ukraine, Latvia, Poland before and after, as well as parts in-between.  This map I believe just before WWI and not including our discussed territories.  WWI is known as the end of the Empires.  Imperial conquerors also shrunk exponentially. 

 

Palestinian and Arab groups in these same time frames were accused of moving Jewish inhabitants off these same lands. Jews were a minority? However there, in what is now Palestine & Israel. Before current accusation of Israel for their expulsion. Have had Jordanian & Egyptian conquerors weigh in as well. Currently lots of militant groups still seek opportunity. 

 

 

I can post a map as early as 1991 if that helps.

 

The simplicity of the argument of "our former land" can be applied any number of ways and can be used to justify any number of wrongs.  This is the issue people forget when using this oft used and tired argument.  

 

What is arguable for one, can be arguable for the other for the same reasons.  Sadly, they are often only used to justify ones bias and never to justify their loss

Edited October 26, 2023 by Warhippy

[Odd.]

If you think Israel as a state was justified to take over that land, then how can you in the same breath be against Russia taking back Ukraine which was technically there’s at one point?

 

YOU CANT. You can’t just take over an entire established nation. It’s unjust, it’s occupation. The same thing quite literally is happening to Palestinians over what a fucking book told Jewish people 3000 years ago.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Odd.

[Warhippy]

13 minutes ago, Odd. said:

If you think Israel as a state was justified to take over that land, then how can you in the same breath be against Russia taking back Ukraine which was technically there’s at one point?

 

YOU CANT. You can’t just take over an entire established nation. It’s unjust, it’s occupation. The same thing quite literally is happening to Palestinians over what a ******* book told Jewish people 3000 years ago.

careful or you'll get labeled.  Or told your swearing is to much and you need to come back later when you can control your emotions or something.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Warhippy

[Odd.]

Spain and Portugal land was Muslim territory for hundreds of years. Let’s have muslims establish an Islamic state over there and completely segregate Spanish and Portuguese people into a strip of land because the hadith mentions a crucial monumental moment that took place in those regions. So yeah let’s make them bring in an apartheid regime, let’s have them carpet bomb them, control water food electricity, make it an open air prison, and let’s make the human animals so angry they have militants rise up and that want to destroy this new established state. And then wipe them out. Rinse and repeat every couple of years then cry and cry  “Islamophobia” when someone mentions your genocidal regime.

 

wait a second..this has happened before hasn’t it? I wonder what the response was to such illegal occupation ….

[Taxi]

23 minutes ago, Odd. said:

If you think Israel as a state was justified to take over that land, then how can you in the same breath be against Russia taking back Ukraine which was technically there’s at one point?

 

YOU CANT. You can’t just take over an entire established nation. It’s unjust, it’s occupation. The same thing quite literally is happening to Palestinians over what a fucking book told Jewish people 3000 years ago.

 

There has been a Jewish majority in Jerusalem since the 1830s, despite all sorts of discrimination against them. The holiest mosque in Jerusalem is literally built on top a Jewish temple. Russian aren't from Ukraine. Jews are from Israel. There was no "established nation" of Palestine before Israel existed. It was an Ottoman province and then a British protectorate. In the British protectorate of Mandatory Palestine, both Jews and Arabs were growing vastly in number. The Jews, by the UN, were given control over the Jewish majority areas along the coast. That wasn't accepted. There was a war. The rest is history. 

[Warhippy]

12 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

There has been a Jewish majority in Jerusalem since the 1830s, despite all sorts of discrimination against them. The holiest mosque in Jerusalem is literally built on top a Jewish temple. Russian aren't from Ukraine. Jews are from Israel. There was no "established nation" of Palestine before Israel existed. It was an Ottoman province and then a British protectorate. In the British protectorate of Mandatory Palestine, both Jews and Arabs were growing vastly in number. The Jews, by the UN, were given control over the Jewish majority areas along the coast. That wasn't accepted. There was a war. The rest is history. 

Since about 2000 BCE the ancestors of the Russian peoples have existed in or around the Urals or former Oium lands as the Ural-Altaic peoples.

 

Russians have existed in some fashion in Ukraine since about 800 BCE as the Ostrogoths.  In the lands called Oium.  The Ostrogoths created the first foundations of the Crimerian establishment which became the russian empire which in fact took over Kiev in or around 840 AD which by estimates give Russians or the former Crimerian/Ostrogoth ancestry the same level of claim to the lands of Oium or Ukarine as you just give or gave Israel the land in or around the former lands of the area of Palestine.  Russia allowed Ukraine independence in the early 1990s.  In 2014 they didn't accept it, there was a war the rest is history.

 

See how this goes?  When might makes right it is an allowable or justifiable argument for evil and that evil can be applied and justified as right depending on the side it is being argued for or against.

 

Vilify an entire region place or people based on actions you'll justify for the other side and you can allow for any level of atrocity especially if you look far enough back in history 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Warhippy

[Optimist Prime]

Not sure if this is too big a file to up to the chat, but this is purported to be the larger one column move into Gaza and back out again rather quickly, in order to 'prepare the ground' for wider ground work later on. 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

38 min ago

Israeli forces claim deputy head of Hamas' intelligence directorate was killed in airstrike

From Adi Koplewitz and Jorge Engels

Israeli forces have killed the deputy head of the Hamas’ intelligence directorate, one of the Hamas officials they say is partially responsible for planning the October 7 attacks, according to a joint statement from the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and the Israeli Security Agency (ISA), or Shin Bet. 

“Based on precise IDF and ISA intelligence, IDF fighter jets struck the Deputy Head of the Hamas’ Intelligence Directorate, Shadi Barud,” according to the joint statement released Thursday. 

The IDF and ISA also released footage they claim is of the strikes that killed Barud, showing at least two buildings in Gaza hit with strikes and appearing to collapse. 

The Israeli statement said Barud and Yahya Sinwar planned the October 7 attacks that killed more than 1,400 people and saw more than 200 taken hostage.

“Barud had previously served as Hamas' battalion commander in Khan Yunis and was responsible for planning numerous terror attacks against Israeli civilians,” the statement said.

According to the statement, Barud went on to hold several positions in Hamas’ military intelligence and was in charge of Hamas’ intelligence relations.

Sinwar was a former head of the Al Qassam Brigades, Hamas' militant wing; he’s now the head of Hamas in Gaza. He focused efforts on building relationships with foreign powers — notably Egypt and Iran.

[Warhippy]

9 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

38 min ago

Israeli forces claim deputy head of Hamas' intelligence directorate was killed in airstrike

From Adi Koplewitz and Jorge Engels

Israeli forces have killed the deputy head of the Hamas’ intelligence directorate, one of the Hamas officials they say is partially responsible for planning the October 7 attacks, according to a joint statement from the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and the Israeli Security Agency (ISA), or Shin Bet. 

“Based on precise IDF and ISA intelligence, IDF fighter jets struck the Deputy Head of the Hamas’ Intelligence Directorate, Shadi Barud,” according to the joint statement released Thursday. 

The IDF and ISA also released footage they claim is of the strikes that killed Barud, showing at least two buildings in Gaza hit with strikes and appearing to collapse. 

The Israeli statement said Barud and Yahya Sinwar planned the October 7 attacks that killed more than 1,400 people and saw more than 200 taken hostage.

“Barud had previously served as Hamas' battalion commander in Khan Yunis and was responsible for planning numerous terror attacks against Israeli civilians,” the statement said.

According to the statement, Barud went on to hold several positions in Hamas’ military intelligence and was in charge of Hamas’ intelligence relations.

Sinwar was a former head of the Al Qassam Brigades, Hamas' militant wing; he’s now the head of Hamas in Gaza. He focused efforts on building relationships with foreign powers — notably Egypt and Iran.

I still say between US and Israeli intelligence they've known where the heads of that snake have been for some time.  Unsure why they haven't just done what needs to be done a while ago.

 

Neither nation has ANY issues committing to violence in other nations so this wouldn't be an issue.  Just always baffled me

[Taxi]

24 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Since about 2000 BCE the ancestors of the Russian peoples have existed in or around the Urals or former Oium lands as the Ural-Altaic peoples.

 

Russians have existed in some fashion in Ukraine since about 800 BCE as the Ostrogoths.  In the lands called Oium.  The Ostrogoths created the first foundations of the Crimerian establishment which became the russian empire which in fact took over Kiev in or around 840 AD which by estimates give Russians or the former Crimerian/Ostrogoth ancestry the same level of claim to the lands of Oium or Ukarine as you just give or gave Israel the land in or around the former lands of the area of Palestine.  Russia allowed Ukraine independence in the early 1990s.  In 2014 they didn't accept it, there was a war the rest is history.

 

See how this goes?  When might makes right it is an allowable or justifiable argument for evil and that evil can be applied and justified as right depending on the side it is being argued for or against.

 

Vilify an entire region place or people based on actions you'll justify for the other side and you can allow for any level of atrocity especially if you look far enough back in history 

 

No. Russians come from Russia. They actually likely originate from Slavic tribes that inhabited a very small amount Russia and then invaded outwards, including into Ukraine. The Russians did not have any kind of a state until the 800s AD. And they did not have some kind of expanding state based around Moscow until the 1200s.

 

If anything, that origin far more closely resembles the expansion of Arab tribes from Saudi Arabia into other lands than it does Jews returning to the land of their ancestors. 

 

At the end of the day, the history doesn't matter all that much. Both the Israelis and Palestinians exist and are not going anywhere. Justifying violence against either group, because one "owns" the land is absurd. 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

9 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

No. Russians come from Russia. They actually likely originate from Slavic tribes that inhabited a very small amount Russia and then invaded outwards, including into Ukraine. The Russians did not have any kind of a state until the 800s AD. And they did not have some kind of expanding state based around Moscow until the 1200s.

 

If anything, that origin far more closely resembles the expansion of Arab tribes from Saudi Arabia into other lands than it does Jews returning to the land of their ancestors. 

 

At the end of the day, the history doesn't matter all that much. Both the Israelis and Palestinians exist and are not going anywhere. Justifying violence against either group, because one "owns" the land is absurd. 

 

 

It was prince's from Kyiv who met the Golden Horde at the Dnipro river and ..actually that didn't go well. The Ukraine's forebears faked a truce and butchered the horde delegation, ultimately being defeated by a well known now tactic of feigning retreat before a quick flanking maneuvre by the horde at the river. ultimately the defeated prince's and their entourage were placed under a large wooden 'dancefloor' for lack of a better term and the horde held a feast on it, crushing the lying opponents under their feet while they ate. 

 

edit: lol, i am reminded of a great musical and in particular:

"I know our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's;
I answer hard acrostics, I've a pretty taste for paradox,
I quote in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus,
In conics I can floor peculiarities parabolous;
I can tell undoubted Raphaels from Gerard Dows and Zoffanies,
I know the croaking chorus from The Frogs of Aristophanes!
Then I can hum a fugue of which I've heard the music's din afore,^[c]
And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore.

 

name that tune?

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

No. Russians come from Russia. They actually likely originate from Slavic tribes that inhabited a very small amount Russia and then invaded outwards, including into Ukraine. The Russians did not have any kind of a state until the 800s AD. And they did not have some kind of expanding state based around Moscow until the 1200s.

 

If anything, that origin far more closely resembles the expansion of Arab tribes from Saudi Arabia into other lands than it does Jews returning to the land of their ancestors. 

 

At the end of the day, the history doesn't matter all that much. Both the Israelis and Palestinians exist and are not going anywhere. Justifying violence against either group, because one "owns" the land is absurd. 

 

 

Now you're just splitting hairs and you know it.

 

The estimates of Israels initial fall date back to 720 BCE by the Assyrians leaving the nomadic peoples of the area to populate the lands of palestine and if you REALLY want to reach that far back to justify your position you know you're reaching mate because if we're playing THAT game than by no means at all does Russia not have claim to Ukraine based on those same metrics because the people of Russia and the former lands of Oium and the Ural-Altaic people were in fact one and the same brought under the heel of the Ostrogoths in the river valleys  and plains almost 2000+ years ago with various tribes exchanging leadership roles

 

At the end of the day, the history doesn't matter all that much, Both the Israelis and Palestinians have existed in same fashion on that land for thousands of years.  But using history to justify a position of annexation because of some fairy tale book or claims of ancestral land from 2000+ years ago is absurd and when done it can be applied to any number of conflicts to justify evils or vilify an entire region and people

[Satchmo]

Said it before and I'll say it again.  The solutions to today's problems are unlikely to be found by arguing about the past.

 

The past should never be forgotten, but it also should not be an impediment to a more peaceful future.

 

Forgive me folks, re-reading the lines I just wrote I see I sound like a preacher.   But it is what I think.

[Warhippy]

5 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Said it before and I'll say it again.  The solutions to today's problems are unlikely to be found by arguing about the past.

 

The past should never be forgotten, but it also should not be an impediment to a more peaceful future.

 

Forgive me folks, re-reading the lines I just wrote I see I sound like a preacher.   But it is what I think.

the solution.

 

Just hit the reset button entirely.  Left to right.  Top to bottom.  Nobody gets a leg up and nobody gets to point a finger.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Warhippy

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

the solution.

 

Just hit the reset button entirely.  Left to right.  Top to bottom.  Nobody gets a leg up and nobody gets to point a finger.

 

I'm hoping for an alternative to that solution.   That one seems a bit final.

 

Anyway, I've said my piece.   Agree or disagree and we move on either way...

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I'm hoping for an alternative to that solution.   That one seems a bit final.

 

Anyway, I've said my piece.   Agree or disagree and we move on either way...

Globally....kinda feel this is the only logical solution because the way we're going we'll do it ourselves in short order

[Satchmo]

Just now, Warhippy said:

Globally....kinda feel this is the only logical solution because the way we're going we'll do it ourselves in short order

See your point.   Don't think I'd hire you as a time efficiency consultant to speed up our production line though.   

[Warhippy]

Just now, Satchmo said:

See your point.   Don't think I'd hire you as a time efficiency consultant to speed up our production line though.   

I mean....parameters aside the stuff would get done fast

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Odd. said:

So why bomb sanitation places?

 

Why fly over the field of a rock concert in paragliders mowing down fleeing kids with sub machine guns? Which is oddly not the worst item I could mention.

 

I personally don't believe Israel goes in to Gaza to hit citizens. I do believe they are heavy handed with protestors, settlers with Palestinian farmers! Including deaths that should not have occurred. Where are Palestinians' leaders saying we'll police protestors in 'occupied' West Bank? If you arrest and hold back, pull back Jewish settlers. 

 

Why bomb sanitation places?  Why fire missiles from the top of inhabited apartment buildings...

 

3 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

I was reading this am that an approach similar to Mozul and ridding that place of Isis might be the way it is handled.

 

Did Mosul fair better than Aleppo?

[Optimist Prime]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Did Mosul fair better than Aleppo?

I am gonna say yes, since Russian aviation bombed Aleppo just this morning. 

Idlib, close to Aleppo, my mistake. Same timeframe Assad shelled Aleppo, working in conjunction with Russia. 

11 hours ago 

Russian raids on the southern section of Jabal al-Zawiya, south of Idlib

[Optimist Prime]

Here is yesterday's gift to Aleppo Idlib, near Aleppo, from Russian aviation.