Hamas attacking Israel

[Boudrias]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

Was he Baha'i?

I am sorry Roman it escapes me. I thought it started with an "A". Not sure. If memory serves it was thousands of years old and the sect was not large but had an off shoot in California?   

[Playoff Beered]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

my concern is Iran has been given small tactical nukes already. 

 

We have seen these last few years that the russian leadership is not the brightest bunch but I don't believe that they're so over the top stupid to actually give a nuke to a bunch of religious fanatics right next-door to them, and any nuclear detonation leaves a fingerprint of where the material came from.

 

https://www.science.org/content/article/surprise-nuclear-strike-heres-how-well-figure-out-who-did-it

 

https://gs.llnl.gov/nuclear-threat-reduction/technical-nuclear-forensics#:~:text=The speed-of-light signals,of the burst and timing.

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

We have seen these last few years that the russian leadership is not the brightest bunch but I don't believe that they're so over the top stupid to actually give a nuke to a bunch of religious fanatics right next-door to them, and any nuclear detonation leaves a fingerprint of where the material came from.

 

https://www.science.org/content/article/surprise-nuclear-strike-heres-how-well-figure-out-who-did-it

 

https://gs.llnl.gov/nuclear-threat-reduction/technical-nuclear-forensics#:~:text=The speed-of-light signals,of the burst and timing.

 

I think pooty would give them one. Given the chance who would Iran be most likely to use it on?

[Warhippy]

5 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

We have seen these last few years that the russian leadership is not the brightest bunch but I don't believe that they're so over the top stupid to actually give a nuke to a bunch of religious fanatics right next-door to them, and any nuclear detonation leaves a fingerprint of where the material came from.

 

https://www.science.org/content/article/surprise-nuclear-strike-heres-how-well-figure-out-who-did-it

 

https://gs.llnl.gov/nuclear-threat-reduction/technical-nuclear-forensics#:~:text=The speed-of-light signals,of the burst and timing.

 

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

I think pooty would give them one. Given the chance who would Iran be most likely to use it on?

I have made this statement about a dozen times.

 

Iran is  assisting Russia in their failed attempt in Ukraine.  Arms.  tech and munitions.  As well as $$$

 

Iran has made numerous attempts at creating a bomb.  They have in large part most if not all of the materials but are unable t put it together.  For various reasons between sanctions and Israeli incursions bombing weapons and develoipment sites and US counter intelligence.  But all estimates suggest they have the materials but just can't put it together.

 

What does Russia have that Iran wants?  Money?  No.  Gold?  Nope.  Oil?  Ha.

 

Russia has Nukes.  More importantly Russia has the materials and know how to put nukes together.  While the idea of Russia giving Iran a nuke outright might be something people think is outlandish.  Giving Iran the ability to string their puzzle together is FAR more reasonable and can be done with minor things and no major shipments needed.  A few cargo trucks spread out over time is MORE than enough to get the pieces of the puzzle needed to Iran.  A few intelligence assets are MORE than enough to help Iran paint in the numbers.  Finally, Iran has been digging in to mountains to protect these sites for the last few years based on intelligence which protects them.

 

This is without mentioning of course that Russia has been seen and sited at various Ukranian nuclear sites since the start of the conflict and while a chemical or nuclear marker might indicate it is Russian made or derived.  There is zero oversight right now in Ukraine and any fissionable materials smuggled out of Ukraine that make it in to an Iranian bomb will absolutely suggest Russia had a hand in something, but also can not ever be definitively placed in the lap of Russia as anything can happen in a conflict zone.

 

It is my opinion only that Iran and Russia are assisting each other in ways that benefit each other.  That in mind; the ONLY thing Russia has aside from helping arm insurgents in to various middle eastern conflicts that iran might want is Nukes or the ability to put a nuke together.

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

I am sorry Roman it escapes me. I thought it started with an "A". Not sure. If memory serves it was thousands of years old and the sect was not large but had an off shoot in California?   

The reason I asked is because Baha’i religion started in Iran and they were severely persecuted there and now their main temple is in Haifa, Israel.

[Playoff Beered]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

I think pooty would give them one. Given the chance who would Iran be most likely to use it on?

 

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I have made this statement about a dozen times.

 

Iran is  assisting Russia in their failed attempt in Ukraine.  Arms.  tech and munitions.  As well as $$$

 

Iran has made numerous attempts at creating a bomb.  They have in large part most if not all of the materials but are unable t put it together.  For various reasons between sanctions and Israeli incursions bombing weapons and develoipment sites and US counter intelligence.  But all estimates suggest they have the materials but just can't put it together.

 

What does Russia have that Iran wants?  Money?  No.  Gold?  Nope.  Oil?  Ha.

 

Russia has Nukes.  More importantly Russia has the materials and know how to put nukes together.  While the idea of Russia giving Iran a nuke outright might be something people think is outlandish.  Giving Iran the ability to string their puzzle together is FAR more reasonable and can be done with minor things and no major shipments needed.  A few cargo trucks spread out over time is MORE than enough to get the pieces of the puzzle needed to Iran.  A few intelligence assets are MORE than enough to help Iran paint in the numbers.  Finally, Iran has been digging in to mountains to protect these sites for the last few years based on intelligence which protects them.

 

This is without mentioning of course that Russia has been seen and sited at various Ukranian nuclear sites since the start of the conflict and while a chemical or nuclear marker might indicate it is Russian made or derived.  There is zero oversight right now in Ukraine and any fissionable materials smuggled out of Ukraine that make it in to an Iranian bomb will absolutely suggest Russia had a hand in something, but also can not ever be definitively placed in the lap of Russia as anything can happen in a conflict zone.

 

It is my opinion only that Iran and Russia are assisting each other in ways that benefit each other.  That in mind; the ONLY thing Russia has aside from helping arm insurgents in to various middle eastern conflicts that iran might want is Nukes or the ability to put a nuke together.

 

Anything is possible but I just don't see how it would benefit russia to start a nuclear war by giving a bomb to Iran. All hell would break loose and then it's over for pretty much everyone. The russian leadership wants to live just as much as we do. The mullahs all think they're going to heaven to bang 72 is it? virgins. I don't think Putin shares that view.

[Bob Long]

24 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

 

Anything is possible but I just don't see how it would benefit russia to start a nuclear war by giving a bomb to Iran. All hell would break loose and then it's over for pretty much everyone. The russian leadership wants to live just as much as we do. The mullahs all think they're going to heaven to bang 72 is it? virgins. I don't think Putin shares that view.

 

Maybe pooty sees it as a cheap way to scare and deter the west. One tactical nuke in the hands of the Iranian leaders is a hell of a scary idea and changes the balance of power. How would anyone even find it? 

[Warhippy]

23 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

 

Anything is possible but I just don't see how it would benefit russia to start a nuclear war by giving a bomb to Iran. All hell would break loose and then it's over for pretty much everyone. The russian leadership wants to live just as much as we do. The mullahs all think they're going to heaven to bang 72 is it? virgins. I don't think Putin shares that view.

Again

 

Not giving them a bomb but helping them finish one.  This isn't like the French and the Chinese or the French and Israelis.

 

Iran having a nuke immediately changes everything.  Every available NATO force and the UN would immediately be on high alert and parked outside of the middle East leaving Russia a TON of breathing room.

 

Russia giving Iran the ability to finish a nuke is in both nations best interests

[Playoff Beered]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

Maybe pooty sees it as a cheap way to scare and deter the west. One tactical nuke in the hands of the Iranian leaders is a hell of a scary idea and changes the balance of power. How would anyone even find it? 

 

So you're thinking they would give them one and announce it to deter the west? If it became known that Iran got a bomb from russia and they used it Tehran would be turned into a glass parking lot tout suite, and then what? russia wouldn't want to come to their aid by retaliating against the US, that would be suicide. I just don't see the benefit to russia.

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

So you're thinking they would give them one and announce it to deter the west? If it became known that Iran got a bomb from russia and they used it Tehran would be turned into a glass parking lot tout suite, and then what? russia wouldn't want to come to their aid by retaliating against the US, that would be suicide. I just don't see the benefit to russia.

 

If pooty thinks he's going to lose the Ukraine invasion yes I do think he's capable of that.

[Playoff Beered]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

If pooty thinks he's going to lose the Ukraine invasion yes I do think he's capable of that.

 

Well all I can say is I hope I'm right and your wrong.

[Playoff Beered]

17 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Again

 

Not giving them a bomb but helping them finish one.  This isn't like the French and the Chinese or the French and Israelis.

 

Iran having a nuke immediately changes everything.  Every available NATO force and the UN would immediately be on high alert and parked outside of the middle East leaving Russia a TON of breathing room.

 

Russia giving Iran the ability to finish a nuke is in both nations best interests

 

That changes it a bit but I still think that won't happen, hope I'm right.

 

Also it really only takes one US sub to neutralize Iran, so NATO wouldn't be needed.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Satchmo]

An ongoing problem in all this is trying to figure out just WTF Putin is thinking.   He's smart enough to know that and to use it to his advantage.

 

I can see the arguments for and against Putin actually helping out Iran's nuclear goals.   He may have just promised them baby formula but he's sure got us all thinking and worrying.   That in itself is to Putin's advantage.

[Warhippy]

I feel as though this is derailing the thread but one has to ask the obvious question.

 

What did or would Iran stand to gain from helping Russia at all?

 

Both nations have gold.  Oil.  Both nations need USD/Money

 

Arming a few thousand terrorists doesn't benefit Russia who is in dire and desperate need of weapons and munitions right now.  Sending munitions and arms to Russia for just because doesn't help Iran.

 

There is literally only one thing that benefits Iran at all.  That is assistance in finishing a nuclear program. 

 

Prior to the Israeli bombing of their plants in operation opera in the 80s.  And numerous other operations allegedly conducted by Israel and the US over the last decade such as Natanz, assassination of Shairari and Davani, The Flame, Stuxnet, Wiper, Stars and Duqu viruses, Murder of Roshan, Murder of Fakhrizadeh, Warehouse raid in 2018 and various other alleged operations.  Iran has been on the cusp of putting it all together a few times.  Russia giving them the items needed to simply finalize it when by all accounts they have been missing just a few pieces of the puzzle to finish their own is EVERYTHING to Iran.

 

If Russia gives them fissionable material from Ukranian sites.  it is clear who did it but can NOT be placed with concrete proof or evidence at the foot of Putin/Russia.  If Russia gives Iran those last few pieces of equipment to enrich or put together a bomb it also can not be placed at the feet of Putin.  But BOTH actions have the same net effect in ensuring Iran is now a nuclear power in the middle east.

 

Once Iran achieves this.  Every single news agency, media centre and nation in the UN and NATO alliances will be put on high alert.  This will give other warlords in the area a near green light to do whatever they want because all attentions will be place and paid to Iran in the same way the world did to NK when they finally put it all together.  We know who helped NK and we know how but China was never once held accountable to it.  They assisted in much the same way Russia could/would with Iran and that is genuinely frightening.

 

For Putin.  Iran announcing they have a working bomb or series of bombs, back pack bombs or the like immediately relieves NATO pressure against them and allows them that time to regroup and rearm and that's literally all they need.  6 maybe 8 weeks and it changes the entirety of the landscape in the Ukranian conflict.

[Elias Pettersson]

Hamas headquarters is located underneath the Al-Shifa hospital.  I already mentioned this in this thread, but now there is more evidence coming out to support this...

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

 

I have made this statement about a dozen times.

 

Iran is  assisting Russia in their failed attempt in Ukraine.  Arms.  tech and munitions.  As well as $$$

 

Iran has made numerous attempts at creating a bomb.  They have in large part most if not all of the materials but are unable t put it together.  For various reasons between sanctions and Israeli incursions bombing weapons and develoipment sites and US counter intelligence.  But all estimates suggest they have the materials but just can't put it together.

 

What does Russia have that Iran wants?  Money?  No.  Gold?  Nope.  Oil?  Ha.

 

Russia has Nukes.  More importantly Russia has the materials and know how to put nukes together.  While the idea of Russia giving Iran a nuke outright might be something people think is outlandish.  Giving Iran the ability to string their puzzle together is FAR more reasonable and can be done with minor things and no major shipments needed.  A few cargo trucks spread out over time is MORE than enough to get the pieces of the puzzle needed to Iran.  A few intelligence assets are MORE than enough to help Iran paint in the numbers.  Finally, Iran has been digging in to mountains to protect these sites for the last few years based on intelligence which protects them.

 

This is without mentioning of course that Russia has been seen and sited at various Ukranian nuclear sites since the start of the conflict and while a chemical or nuclear marker might indicate it is Russian made or derived.  There is zero oversight right now in Ukraine and any fissionable materials smuggled out of Ukraine that make it in to an Iranian bomb will absolutely suggest Russia had a hand in something, but also can not ever be definitively placed in the lap of Russia as anything can happen in a conflict zone.

 

It is my opinion only that Iran and Russia are assisting each other in ways that benefit each other.  That in mind; the ONLY thing Russia has aside from helping arm insurgents in to various middle eastern conflicts that iran might want is Nukes or the ability to put a nuke together.

Hopefully they're assisting Iran in their navy.  

[Playoff Beered]

A Plan to Defeat Hamas and Avoid a Bloodbath

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/opinion/israel-hamas-strategy-bennett.html#:~:text=Militarily%2C the plan he sketches,to keep them in place.

 

Quote

 

At least twice this week, columns of Israeli armored vehicles made brief forays into northern Gaza — a probable prelude to a full-scale invasion of the territory, for which Israel has called up more than 300,000 of its reserves. The strategy? Nobody seems to know for sure, and the government isn’t saying. On Monday, The Times reported that the Pentagon had doubts about the readiness of Israel’s forces and whether its objective of eradicating Hamas is even achievable.

The dilemma Israelis face, to cite the old proverb, is that the only way out seems to be through — through Gaza’s narrow streets, its booby-trapped roads and buildings, the vast maze of tunnels in which many of the hostages are imprisoned. In my conversations with Israelis this week, the historical analogy that keeps popping up is the battle of Stalingrad.

Other courses may be even riskier. A limited military campaign conducted mostly from the air and ending in the same kind of stalemate that Israel has seen before would be a major victory for Hamas, emboldening it and allies like Hezbollah for future and deadlier attacks.

Even worse is the cease-fire being proposed at the U.N. General Assembly, which would reduce civilian casualties but leave Hamas in power and, despite the past weeks of Israeli bombing, mostly untouched. Among other effects, it would make it impossible for the tens of thousands of Israelis who have fled their homes near the Gaza border and are now displaced people within Israel to ever safely go back.

Is there another way? Naftali Bennett, a former prime minister,thinks so. At his home in the leafy town of Ra’anana a few miles north of Tel Aviv, he spells out what he calls his “squeeze approach” — a plan that is original in its conception and unexpected in its conclusion.

“What’s important is to not play along with the lines that Hamas wrote for us,” he says. “I think there’s a much less costly way to go about things.”

 

 

Naftali Bennett

 

Hamas’s master plan, as Bennett sees it, is roughly as follows: Provoke, via its gruesome massacres on Oct. 7, a massive Israeli ground invasion. Force Israeli troops to fight for weeks or months on unfamiliar and terrifying ground, causing thousands of casualties. Dribble out opportunities for hostage releases or cease-fires as a way of weakening Israel’s resolve and obtaining material concessions, particularly fuel. Bleed the Israeli economy dry by requiring the country to keep its citizen army mobilized for months. Count on diplomatic pressure and Israel’s well-known low tolerance for high casualties to get Jerusalem to call it quits after a few weeks of war, just as it often has in the past.

 

What Bennett envisions is to turn Hamas’s current assets into liabilities. Five in particular: terrain, time, triggers, the world’s attention and the hostages.

Militarily, the plan he sketches begins by having Israel establish a security zone in Gaza two kilometers deep while also cutting the territory in half, somewhere between Gaza City and Khan Younis. Already, nearly 800,000 Gazans have fled from north to south, despite efforts by Hamas to keep them in place. Two humanitarian corridors, subject to Israeli controls, will allow civilians still trapped in the north to move south. Israel will permit water, food and medicine to reach the south and will create medical and humanitarian safe havens in the buffer zone.

This is the most manpower- and firepower-intensive part of Bennett’s plan, but it does not involve a thrust into the heart of Gaza’s cities. It leaves the north of Gaza completely cut off — above all, of energy. “There’s a reason they’re asking for fuel,” he says of Hamas’s recent attempts to trade hostages for gas. “They’re asking for fuel not for their citizens but for their tunnels,” which are used exclusively by Hamas fighters and their allies.

Gaining this kind of control means that Israel isolates the battlefield — a core requirement in any successful war and a time-tested way of protecting civilians. It allows most of Israel’s reservists to go home, relieving the heavy strain on the economy. It eases the crisis on the international stage while doing nothing to release Hamas from its chokehold.

Most important, it allows Israel to conduct what Bennett describes as an “ongoing and persistent series of targeted ground raids” over a long period without the need to occupy cities in force.

Smaller raids tend to produce fewer deaths, particularly civilian casualties, and less physical destruction, at least when compared with airstrikes or artillery fire. They play to the unique skills of Israel’s special forces. They reduce the chances of a triggering event in which large numbers of civilian casualties prompt Hezbollah to open a front in the north or Palestinians in the West Bank to start a third intifada. And they minimize the exposure of regular Israeli infantry to the hazards of dense urban combat.

“I don’t want to get into a Viet Cong-type war of tunnels,” Bennett says. “I want to surprise them by letting them dry out in the tunnels. Imagine a Hamas terrorist waiting in one of those tunnels with his weapons. The one thing he doesn’t expect is to be stuck there for nine months with no logistics backing, running out of food, cold, wet and miserable.”

As for the hostages, Bennett recognizes there are no easy answers. But he thinks Hamas has begun to realize that “holding babies, the elderly and foreign citizens is an inherent liability, given that they want public sympathy.” In the meantime, Hamas will probably do everything it can to keep the hostages alive and reasonably healthy, if only because they are useless to it when dead. This, too, is a drain on the group’s dwindling resources.

Bennett sees the war lasting months, even years, much like the campaign against ISIS in Iraq and Syria. The long timetable imposes a need for patience on an Israeli public justifiably hungry for vengeance and victory. But the cumulative result of his concept would be the complete destruction of Hamas’s war-fighting capacity and the deaths of thousands of its fighters.

There’s a coda to his plan. At some point, any Hamas fighters who remain in Gaza will be offered the chance for passage to a third country — Algeria, maybe, or Qatar, where Hamas has financial patrons. While Bennett dislikes the linkage, safe passage may be the price Israel is willing to pay in the end for the freedom of remaining hostages.

“It would be like Beirut in 1982, when Yasir Arafat and all of his terrorists got on a boat and left Lebanon forever,” Bennett says, recalling the Palestinian leader’s forced eviction to Tunisia under Israel’s siege of the city. At that point, the displaced people of southern Gaza might choose to return to their homes, and the displaced people of southern Israel could confidently opt to go back to theirs.

Could it work? War never offers clean choices — particularly one that was foisted on Israel through a day of “pure, unadulterated evil,” as President Biden rightly called Hamas’s atrocities. There’s also a larger set of questions of what happens to Gaza after the war ends.

Israel will almost certainly keep the buffer zone in Gaza for years to come, not only for security but also as punishment for Hamas’s depredations. The Palestinian Authority will be reluctant, at least at first, to re-establish itself in the territory on the heels of Israel’s victory. In all likelihood, an international security presence will be needed in Gaza, much like in Kosovo after its war. This, too, could last years.

But the question isn’t whether Bennett’s plan is perfect or if there are gaps to fill. It is whether it’s better than the alternatives for achieving Israel’s core aims: destroying Hamas, exacting justice, protecting the innocent, deterring the wicked and, as David Petraeus once asked about Iraq, explaining to the world “how this ends.” By those counts, it’s a plan worthy of attention and respect.

 

 

 

[Taxi]

31 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

A Plan to Defeat Hamas and Avoid a Bloodbath

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/opinion/israel-hamas-strategy-bennett.html#:~:text=Militarily%2C the plan he sketches,to keep them in place.

 

 

 

 

Not a chance that plan would go ahead. He's talking about a sustained military presence in Gaza. He's also talking about dividing the territory into two and trapping all the residents in two tiny enclaves surrounded by the Israeli military. Likely worse for the residents of Gaza long-term, a huge cost to Israel, and there's no way the international community would want that kind of collective punishment.

 

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

 

 

Elon Muskovite should stick to what he's good at (which isn't politics).

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[moosehead]

6 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

 

Great.  Let more innocent blood flow. See where it gets you Israel.  The killing of innocent gaza civilians will only grow  this  conflct.

This is what both the evil  Hamas and  evil Israel current government extremists want.

 

Just another sad day for all civilians on both sides as it ensures more terrorism and more innocent civiilian deaths...

Edited October 27, 2023 by moosehead

[moosehead]

55 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

A Plan to Defeat Hamas and Avoid a Bloodbath

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/opinion/israel-hamas-strategy-bennett.html#:~:text=Militarily%2C the plan he sketches,to keep them in place.

 

 

 

 

Great seems like the CIA is agree with what i have been posting here all long.

An Israel ground invasion will not result in success in destroying the evil Hams terrorists...

 

Perhaps Israel right wing extreme government has a secret agenda to this slaughter..... ?

[Elias Pettersson]

 

 

[Sabrefan1]

Everyone is stumping for Elon Musk to give Starlink internet access to Gaza.  I'm curious as to how a country with very little fuel to create electricity will use Starlink.  Not to mention the equipment needed would still need to be mass produced over a few weeks time and then flown into the middle of warzone sometime in December.

 

It would make more sense to stump other companies to immediately provide needed necessities like say food, water, medicine, fuel, generators, etc.

 

Apparently since Elon is the "enemy", he must give his stuff away for free whether it makes sense to do so or not.

 

Here's the loony hashtag link:  https://twitter.com/search?q=%23starlinkforgaza&src=trend_click&vertical=trends