moosehead Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 4 minutes ago, Bob Long said: its kind of ironic that the guy that wrote this is doing so from Calgary. Not sure how this concept plays into a long term solution? Well he makes excellent points... The list is long but among those policies are the long-held policy of annexing East Jerusalem; the building of the apartheid wall; the siege on Gaza, separating Palestinian land into non-contiguous units; the constant imprisonment of Palestinians under the charge of being political; the occupation and the checkpoints that make life impossible for ordinary Palestinians, hence encouraging their emigration; the de-development of the Palestinian economy; the policy of home demolitions; the discriminatory policies against Palestinian citizens of Israel that deny them the ability to purchase and lease land; and the non-ending stream of Israeli government permits to build more settlements and expand existing ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, moosehead said: Well he makes excellent points... The list is long but among those policies are the long-held policy of annexing East Jerusalem; the building of the apartheid wall; the siege on Gaza, separating Palestinian land into non-contiguous units; the constant imprisonment of Palestinians under the charge of being political; the occupation and the checkpoints that make life impossible for ordinary Palestinians, hence encouraging their emigration; the de-development of the Palestinian economy; the policy of home demolitions; the discriminatory policies against Palestinian citizens of Israel that deny them the ability to purchase and lease land; and the non-ending stream of Israeli government permits to build more settlements and expand existing ones. still not sure how this leads to a different plan than what Israel is currently undertaking? In all of the back and forth in this thread, I really haven't seen a viable, practical alternative to whats occurring right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 11 minutes ago, Bob Long said: its kind of ironic that the guy that wrote this is doing so from Calgary. Not sure how this concept plays into a long term solution? Option 4: Bring in a new player to rule Gaza In this situation, Israel may seek other local factions within Gaza and try to partner with them to create a new ruling party. “It could mean heads of tribes, NGOs, or mayors, or even senior figures in Fatah, the political party that controls the Palestinian Authority,” Milshtein says. Anas Iqtait, who teaches political economy of the Middle East at Australia National University, says that if this does happen, Israel would be likely to involve the Palestinian Authority. “I don’t think it’s viable for Israel to completely remove Hamas from power in Gaza, but if they do, then the Palestinian Authority would be the most suitable or the most logical option based on what we have seen in the past,” Iqtait says. The Palestinian Authority administered Gaza before losing elections in 2006. Violent clashes between Hamas and Fatah led to the Palestinian Authority’s complete retreat from the Gaza Strip in 2007. The enclave has been ruled by Hamas ever since. But Fatah and the Palestinian Authority have become extremely unpopular among Palestinians in recent years. In the occupied West Bank, which falls under the PA’s leadership, Palestinians increasingly see them as subcontractors of Israel’s military occupation. “If they are seen as corrupt political and business elites without any political vision, then many people will be drawn and driven and supportive of the alternative narrative that provides legitimacy towards resisting the occupation through other means,” Iqtait says. https://time.com/6328823/israels-4-bad-options-gaza/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoff Beered Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, moosehead said: Option 4: Bring in a new player to rule Gaza In this situation, Israel may seek other local factions within Gaza and try to partner with them to create a new ruling party. “It could mean heads of tribes, NGOs, or mayors, or even senior figures in Fatah, the political party that controls the Palestinian Authority,” Milshtein says. Anas Iqtait, who teaches political economy of the Middle East at Australia National University, says that if this does happen, Israel would be likely to involve the Palestinian Authority. “I don’t think it’s viable for Israel to completely remove Hamas from power in Gaza, but if they do, then the Palestinian Authority would be the most suitable or the most logical option based on what we have seen in the past,” Iqtait says. The Palestinian Authority administered Gaza before losing elections in 2006. Violent clashes between Hamas and Fatah led to the Palestinian Authority’s complete retreat from the Gaza Strip in 2007. The enclave has been ruled by Hamas ever since. But Fatah and the Palestinian Authority have become extremely unpopular among Palestinians in recent years. In the occupied West Bank, which falls under the PA’s leadership, Palestinians increasingly see them as subcontractors of Israel’s military occupation. “If they are seen as corrupt political and business elites without any political vision, then many people will be drawn and driven and supportive of the alternative narrative that provides legitimacy towards resisting the occupation through other means,” Iqtait says. https://time.com/6328823/israels-4-bad-options-gaza/ Hamas needs to be removed for this to be an option, so it's nothing but a pipe dream until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 9 minutes ago, moosehead said: Option 4: Bring in a new player to rule Gaza In this situation, Israel may seek other local factions within Gaza and try to partner with them to create a new ruling party. “It could mean heads of tribes, NGOs, or mayors, or even senior figures in Fatah, the political party that controls the Palestinian Authority,” Milshtein says. Anas Iqtait, who teaches political economy of the Middle East at Australia National University, says that if this does happen, Israel would be likely to involve the Palestinian Authority. “I don’t think it’s viable for Israel to completely remove Hamas from power in Gaza, but if they do, then the Palestinian Authority would be the most suitable or the most logical option based on what we have seen in the past,” Iqtait says. The Palestinian Authority administered Gaza before losing elections in 2006. Violent clashes between Hamas and Fatah led to the Palestinian Authority’s complete retreat from the Gaza Strip in 2007. The enclave has been ruled by Hamas ever since. But Fatah and the Palestinian Authority have become extremely unpopular among Palestinians in recent years. In the occupied West Bank, which falls under the PA’s leadership, Palestinians increasingly see them as subcontractors of Israel’s military occupation. “If they are seen as corrupt political and business elites without any political vision, then many people will be drawn and driven and supportive of the alternative narrative that provides legitimacy towards resisting the occupation through other means,” Iqtait says. https://time.com/6328823/israels-4-bad-options-gaza/ I think other options is the point of the current war isn't it? Once Hamas is gone maybe this option can be explored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: I think other options is the point of the current war isn't it? Once Hamas is gone maybe this option can be explored. Israel may take out some of the top Hamas leadership.. but Hamas is an ideology so it will never be completely eliminated..... In fact most of Hamas top leaders actually operate in complete safety from other friendly countries..... Edited October 28, 2023 by moosehead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoff Beered Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 Just now, moosehead said: Israel may take out some of the top Hamas leadership.. but Hamas is an ideology so it will never be completely eliminated..... In fact most of Hamas top leaders actually operate in complete safety from other countries..... That needs to be dealt with also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 6 minutes ago, moosehead said: Israel may take out some of the top Hamas leadership.. but Hamas is an ideology so it will never be completely eliminated..... In fact most of Hamas top leaders actually operate in complete safety from other friendly countries..... Yea that is true, but maybe Palestinians will also be happy to be out from under them. They can't be allowed to continue running Gaza. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Yea that is true, but maybe Palestinians will also be happy to be out from under them. They can't be allowed to continue running Gaza. Hard to say... seems like Hamas is actually growing in popularity in the West bank the last few years..... so really it is unclear how to reduce their popularity. Maybe if the world would invest in infrastructure and investments in PA areas.... that could raise their popularity and reduce the move to Hamas support..... But i guess that money is already allocated to Israel bombs.... According to USAID Data Services as of January 2023, in constant 2021 U.S. dollars (inflation-adjusted), total U.S. aid to Israel obligated from 1946-2023 is an estimated $260 billion.Mar 1, 2023 Edited October 28, 2023 by moosehead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoff Beered Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 1 hour ago, moosehead said: Great to be naive....... Hamas has not been active in gaza for 80 years.... nice try though. Whatever helps you sleep at night i guess..... 42 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said: They weren't called Hamas back then but it's been happening under different names for a long time... The mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini was appointed by the British in 1921. The title recognised his position as the major religious and political authority among the Palestinian Arabs. In accordance with the principle of “my enemy’s enemy is my ally”, the mufti sought support from Nazi,s and in return backed Hitler’s war, including the extermination of the Jews. He initiated the formation of a predominantly Muslim unit of the Waffen SSin Bosnia. In November 1941 he was received by Hitler in Berlin. No response to this , huh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoff Beered Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 5 minutes ago, moosehead said: Hard to say... seems like Hamas is actually growing in popularity in the West bank the last few years..... so really it is unclear how to reduce their popularity. Maybe if the world would invest in infrastructure and investments in PA areas.... that could raise their popularity and reduce the move to Hamas support..... But i guess that money is already allocated to Israel bombs.... According to USAID Data Services as of January 2023, in constant 2021 U.S. dollars (inflation-adjusted), total U.S. aid to Israel obligated from 1946-2023 is an estimated $260 billion.Mar 1, 2023 Hamas steals all the aid sent to Gaza and uses it for war. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 6 minutes ago, moosehead said: Hard to say... seems like Hamas is actually growing in popularity in the West bank the last few years..... so really it is unclear how to reduce their popularity. Maybe if the world would invest in infrastructure and investments in PA areas.... that could raise their popularity and reduce the move to Hamas support..... But i guess that money is already allocated to Israel bombs.... According to USAID Data Services as of January 2023, in constant 2021 U.S. dollars (inflation-adjusted), total U.S. aid to Israel obligated from 1946-2023 is an estimated $260 billion.Mar 1, 2023 Who engineers a supplies the key skilled labour to build such infrastructure, when HAMAS is there? Would those who come to help by providing their skills be safe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 Sad to my core to see so many Palestinians and especially the kids dead/wounded/orphaned. The innocence is truly the losers for both peoples in this war. 1 3 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 Just now, Sharpshooter said: Sad to my core to see so many Palestinians and especially the kids dead/wounded/orphaned. The innocence is truly the losers for both peoples in this war. Yes, sad to see innocents harmed / killed. Sad to see some people rejoicing in more killings. This region desperately deserves peace. 1 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 1 minute ago, moosehead said: Yes, sad to see innocents harmed / killed. Sad to see some people rejoicing in more killings. This region desperately deserves peace. I wish they’d collectively earn it for themselves. No one or country is going to hand it to them. Their peoples deserve better than their leaders. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said: I wish they’d collectively earn it for themselves. No one or country is going to hand it to them. Their peoples deserve better than their leaders. Good people manipulated by corrupt leaders on both sides fanning the flames of hatred / intolerance for their own personal gain....... The average citizen just wants peace and freedom. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: still not sure how this leads to a different plan than what Israel is currently undertaking? In all of the back and forth in this thread, I really haven't seen a viable, practical alternative to whats occurring right now. The Palestinians have been offered deals many different times for their own state. They refused every single deal. The reason why is because they don’t want to negotiate. Their only objective is the destruction of Israel. They should have taken the deal from 1947. Instead they refused and then instigated a war on the Jews to get even more land. They lost the war and now they are screwed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: The Palestinians have been offered deals many different times for their own state. They refused every single deal. The reason why is because they don’t want to negotiate. Their only objective is the destruction of Israel. They should have taken the deal from 1947. Instead they refused and then instigated a war on the Jews to get even more land. They lost the war and now they are screwed. I have to go read some history to make an informed response here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogie Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 Also, answer me this, everyone that says Israel has a right to defend itself, how by definition can an OCCUPYING force have any right to defend itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 10 hours ago, Bob Long said: @RomanPer is right. We have to figure out how to get rid of the crazies on both sides. imo many on the left are unintentionally (in many cases) bolstering Hamas, but it's also a consequence of our disinformation age. You know who also uses the word exterminate, Hamas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 1 minute ago, Ilunga said: You know who also uses the word exterminate, Hamas. Can you give me a realistic alternative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 15 minutes ago, Doogie said: This is currently about the attack on Oct 7. There are certainly historical underpinnings but this is all about Oct 7. And suggesting that Israel doesn’t ‘care’ about women and children is beyond the pale. Tread carefully. I won’t allow further inflammatory statements. Consider this an informal warning to you and everyone here. It’s a sensitive subject/discussion, so we all need to pay attention to what we write and post. Look to the top of the page in the big red box, for guidance. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 Just now, Bob Long said: Can you give me a realistic alternative? I am sick of that posters dehumanising comments. He does it across the forum. You know what I a referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 51 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: Sad to my core to see so many Palestinians and especially the kids dead/wounded/orphaned. The innocence is truly the losers for both peoples in this war. The innocents are the real losers in every war/ conflict. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 6 minutes ago, Ilunga said: You know who also uses the word exterminate, Hamas. You know I'm a Dr Who fan. Dont like that word, outside of the Daleks 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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