Hamas attacking Israel

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

You don’t negotiate with terrorists. The only way this gets fixed is when Israel  negotiates a peaceful compromise ( 2 state solution ) with the Palestinians ......   Hamas does not speak for most palestinians....

The Palestinians need to rise up and understand they are being used by a terrorist organization similar to the Afghanis being used by Al Qaeda. 
 

A two state solution is what is needed but can never be negotiated when terrorists are involved. 

[moosehead]

Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

The Palestinians need to rise up and understand they are being used by a terrorist organization similar to the Afghanis being used by Al Qaeda. 
 

A two state solution is what is needed but can never be negotiated when terrorists are involved. 

 

Well 70 years has probably been  more than enough time to get things resolved..........    ethnic cleansing has not helped the situation . 

[nuckin_futz]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The chances of all of that happening is zero. Hamas won’t go away until they are physically wiped from the earth. 
 

Israel must now do what the US did after 9/11. This calls for the complete destruction of Hamas. Iran most likely gets involved as well as Hezbollah. So I see a real scenario where Israel could use their nukes. 

 

There is a problem greater than Hamas and that is this ideology of non recognition that is pervasive in that region. Wiping out Hamas does nothing to eliminate the ideology.

 

What exactly did the US do after 9/11? Last I checked they spent 20 years in the region and trillions of dollars and now the Taliban runs Afghanistan just as they did at the beginning. That's not a model for dealing with that problem it's a cluster****.

[Elias Pettersson]

7 minutes ago, nuckin_futz said:

 

While I agree with the label you've affixed. Generally speaking one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. An argument can be made the biggest terrorist organization on Earth is the CIA. Should they be wiped out too?

 

It's just not as easy as 'wipe them out'.

I agree with the CIA comparison. That’s a whole other conversation. And yes factions of the CIA should be wiped out. The US doesn’t have any clean hands either. 

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Well 70 years has probably been  more than enough time to get things resolved..........    ethnic cleansing has not helped the situation . 

 

You have to stop with "ethnic cleansing" narrative. Israel doesn't kill people because they are Arabs, Israel kills people who support terrorists. If anything, ethnic cleansing is happening the other way around - certain Palestinians kill Jews only because they are Jews.

[Elias Pettersson]

Just now, RomanPer said:

 

You have to stop with "ethnic cleansing" narrative. Israel doesn't kill people because they are Arabs, Israel kills people who support terrorists. If anything, ethnic cleansing is happening the other way around - certain Palestinians kill Jews only because they are Jews.

Exactly. There are lots of Arabs living in Israel. Doctors, lawyers. Some are even a part of the Israeli military. 
 

What Hamas wants is to eliminate all of the Jewish people from the earth. Israel has never ever said they want all the Arabs gone. 

[UnkNuk]

5 hours ago, Boudrias said:

I expect some pretty horrific stuff to go down in the near future in the ME. Israel has not absorbed the full impact yet as to what actually happened. Having any confidence that Israel's actions will be somewhat muted is not realistic. Life in the ME can be hard for many. To a large extent Israel will have a free reign on how it responds to this attack. I highly doubt there will be a groundswell of support for Hamas or the Palestinians as a whole. They have been useful proxies in the past but those days are ending.  

 

Isn't there a concern that if Israel goes overboard in its retaliation that it might inflame the passions of the populations of the neighboring Arab countries?  And that might force the governments of those countries to come to the Palestinians' aid?

[moosehead]

14 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

You have to stop with "ethnic cleansing" narrative. Israel doesn't kill people because they are Arabs, Israel kills people who support terrorists. If anything, ethnic cleansing is happening the other way around - certain Palestinians kill Jews only because they are Jews.

 

Are you serioiusly claiming Israel has not been occupying palestinian lands / villages. ....

 

 

 

Between 1947 and 1949, at least 750,000 Palestinians from a 1.9 million population were made refugees beyond the borders of the state. Zionist forces had taken more than 78 percent of historic Palestine, ethnically cleansed and destroyed about 530 villages and cities, and killed about 15,000 Palestinians in a series of mass atrocities, including more than 70 massacres.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948

 

During the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, known as the Naksa, meaning “setback”, Israel occupied the remaining Palestinian territories of East Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and continues to occupy them until today. While under the UN partition plan Israel was allocated 55 percent, today it controls more than 85 percent of historic Palestine. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by moosehead

[Elias Pettersson]

22 minutes ago, nuckin_futz said:

 

There is a problem greater than Hamas and that is this ideology of non recognition that is pervasive in that region. Wiping out Hamas does nothing to eliminate the ideology.

 

What exactly did the US do after 9/11? Last I checked they spent 20 years in the region and trillions of dollars and now the Taliban runs Afghanistan just as they did at the beginning. That's not a model for dealing with that problem it's a cluster****.

This is true. The US Military Industrial Complex seems to not have issues with extending wars throughout generations. 
 

I don’t think the issue in the Middle East is with ideology.  When you have terrorist groups in the region they tend to muddy the waters for everyone else. Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda. 
 

You get rid of the terrorist groups and it’s much easier to get peace in the region.  Problem is like you said alot of Arabs look at those terrorist organizations as freedom fighters. They have been brainwashed to believe this. Which is the main problem IMO. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

This is true. The US Military Industrial Complex seems to not have issues with extending wars throughout generations. 
 

I don’t think the issue in the Middle East is with ideology.  When you have terrorist groups in the region they tend to muddy the waters for everyone else. Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda. 
 

You get rid of the terrorist groups and it’s much easier to get peace in the region.  Problem is like you said alot of Arabs look at that terrorist organizations as freedom fighters. They have been brainwashed to believe this. Which is the main problem IMO. 

 

Easy to brainwash young  men  raised under oppression, ethnic cleansing,  occupation and apartheid.......  

 

Sad situation. Both sides are to blame with this current tragedy and so many innocents are suffering.    Just a sad situation. No winners, only suffering. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by moosehead

[moosehead]

[RomanPer]

52 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Are you serioiusly claiming Israel has not been occupying palestinian lands / villages. ....

 

 

 

Between 1947 and 1949, at least 750,000 Palestinians from a 1.9 million population were made refugees beyond the borders of the state. Zionist forces had taken more than 78 percent of historic Palestine, ethnically cleansed and destroyed about 530 villages and cities, and killed about 15,000 Palestinians in a series of mass atrocities, including more than 70 massacres.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948

 

During the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, known as the Naksa, meaning “setback”, Israel occupied the remaining Palestinian territories of East Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and continues to occupy them until today. While under the UN partition plan Israel was allocated 55 percent, today it controls more than 85 percent of historic Palestine. 

 

I am seriously claiming that Israel doesn’t kill Arabs just because they are Arabs. Regarding refugees between 1947 and 1949 - there are different accounts from different sides. Our side is convinced that it was Arab leaders who convinced Arab population to leave and let them kill all the Jews and they will return to the “cleansed” land. I am seriously claiming that the numbers of killed on the Palestinian side are grossly inflated because i saw videos of staged “victims” who miraculously stoop up from under white sheets the moment main cameras would stop rolling. I am also seriously  claiming that hamas and others before them use Palestinian civilians as “live shield” for their own atrocities. Forgive me for not taking “facts” posted on Aljazeera as “truth”. Also, read in your own quote - in Arabic the 1967 war is called “setback”. Think again about the name - it was just a setback in their grandiose plan to kill all the Jews. They wanted to kill all the Jews and instead lost land. Think of all that land as “security buffer”.

[RomanPer]

35 minutes ago, moosehead said:

It must be really nice to live in a utopian world where everyone lives by the same standards. I can give you another quote “Goodness must have strong fists”.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, moosehead said:

 

That is exactly what Hamas is hoping for.   It will make Hamas stronger.

 

The conflict needs to get resolved.  So much suffering on both sides. 

 

I have a lot of sympathy for the average Palestinian who may have wanted nothing to do with this attack. Seems like Hamas is bent on something horrible. Not sure how thats going to do anyone any good. 

[moosehead]

21 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I am seriously claiming that Israel doesn’t kill Arabs just because they are Arabs. Regarding refugees between 1947 and 1949 - there are different accounts from different sides. Our side is convinced that it was Arab leaders who convinced Arab population to leave and let them kill all the Jews and they will return to the “cleansed” land. I am seriously claiming that the numbers of killed on the Palestinian side are grossly inflated because i saw videos of staged “victims” who miraculously stoop up from under white sheets the moment main cameras would stop rolling. I am also seriously  claiming that hamas and others before them use Palestinian civilians as “live shield” for their own atrocities. Forgive me for not taking “facts” posted on Aljazeera as “truth”. Also, read in your own quote - in Arabic the 1967 war is called “setback”. Think again about the name - it was just a setback in their grandiose plan to kill all the Jews. They wanted to kill all the Jews and instead lost land. Think of all that land as “security buffer”.

buffer zone. Or occupation ?

[RomanPer]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

buffer zone. Or occupation ?

In your imaginary world you can call it whatever you want. When you have “neighbours” whose only goal is to kill your and your family - you do what’s necessary to protect yourself.

[DSVII]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The Palestinians need to rise up and understand they are being used by a terrorist organization similar to the Afghanis being used by Al Qaeda. 
 

A two state solution is what is needed but can never be negotiated when terrorists are involved. 

 

Chances are sadly this conflict will create more recruits from the Palestinians as the IDF kills more civilians in this counter-offensive. 

 

That is Hamas' goal. Peace is death for them.

[bishopshodan]

European Union reverses earlier announcement that it was suspending development aid to Palestinians

https://www.castanet.net/news/World/451185/European-Union-reverses-earlier-announcement-that-it-was-suspending-development-aid-to-Palestinians

 

The European Union late Monday reversed an earlier announcement by an EU commissioner that the bloc was “immediately” suspending development aid for Palestinian authorities and instead said it would urgently review such assistance in the wake of the attacks on Israel by Hamas to make sure no money was misused.

“There will be no suspension of payments” at the moment, a terse European Commission statement said late Monday, five hours after EU Commissioner Oliver Varhelyi had said that all payments from the development program for Palestinians would be “immediately suspended. All projects put under review. All new budget proposals … postponed until further notice.”

[Miss Korea]

23 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I am seriously claiming that Israel doesn’t kill Arabs just because they are Arabs. Regarding refugees between 1947 and 1949 - there are different accounts from different sides. Our side is convinced that it was Arab leaders who convinced Arab population to leave and let them kill all the Jews and they will return to the “cleansed” land. I am seriously claiming that the numbers of killed on the Palestinian side are grossly inflated because i saw videos of staged “victims” who miraculously stoop up from under white sheets the moment main cameras would stop rolling. I am also seriously  claiming that hamas and others before them use Palestinian civilians as “live shield” for their own atrocities. Forgive me for not taking “facts” posted on Aljazeera as “truth”. Also, read in your own quote - in Arabic the 1967 war is called “setback”. Think again about the name - it was just a setback in their grandiose plan to kill all the Jews. They wanted to kill all the Jews and instead lost land. Think of all that land as “security buffer”.

You're talking about the Six-Day War in 1967?  The one where an inevitable conflict was nonetheless started by the Israelis in a pre-emptive strike?

 

Read up on your history, man.

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/224419773/The-Outbreak-of-the-Six-Day-War

[moosehead]

4 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

In your imaginary world you can call it whatever you want. When you have “neighbours” whose only goal is to kill your and your family - you do what’s necessary to protect yourself.

in your imaginary world u can justify occupatiion oppression apartheid however u want 

[Ryan Strome]

1 hour ago, UnkNuk said:

 

Isn't there a concern that if Israel goes overboard in its retaliation that it might inflame the passions of the populations of the neighboring Arab countries?  And that might force the governments of those countries to come to the Palestinians' aid?

Of course there is. 

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

This is true. The US Military Industrial Complex seems to not have issues with extending wars throughout generations. 
 

I don’t think the issue in the Middle East is with ideology.  When you have terrorist groups in the region they tend to muddy the waters for everyone else. Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda. 
 

You get rid of the terrorist groups and it’s much easier to get peace in the region.  Problem is like you said alot of Arabs look at those terrorist organizations as freedom fighters. They have been brainwashed to believe this. Which is the main problem IMO. 

Honest question here because I respect you r views, When you make a statement like that, can you understand why the Arabs view them as freedom fighters? The Israelis took their land occupied It killed them starved them they're basically living under the thumb of Israel and these people are fighting against it. Not very hard to have to brainwash is it?

15 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I have a lot of sympathy for the average Palestinian who may have wanted nothing to do with this attack. Seems like Hamas is bent on something horrible. Not sure how thats going to do anyone any good. 

This is just it. It's like the Russian invasion of Ukraine and everybody hates every Russian and not letting Russians take part in anything as if every Russian supported that. I'm sure there's many Palestinians as you say that did not support this. That being said I share your opinion on sympathy towards Palestinians, but this heinous attack by Hamas will only make their suffering far worse.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Ryan Strome said:

Of course there is. 

Honest question here because I respect you r views, When you make a statement like that, can you understand why the Arabs view them as freedom fighters? The Israelis took their land occupied It killed them starved them they're basically living under the thumb of Israel and these people are fighting against it. Not very hard to have to brainwash is it?

This is just it. It's like the Russian invasion of Ukraine and everybody hates every Russian and not letting Russians take part in anything as if every Russian supported that. I'm sure there's many Palestinians as you say that did not support this. That being said I share your opinion on sympathy towards Palestinians, but this heinous attack by Hamas will only make their suffering far worse.

 

yeah I got raked pretty good for suggesting all Russians weren't evil and some "allies" had some warts. 

 

None of this is simple or fair or right. I can't understand what Hamas leadership is thinking here or how they will gain anything for their people. 

 

[Ryan Strome]

33 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I am seriously claiming that Israel doesn’t kill Arabs just because they are Arabs. Regarding refugees between 1947 and 1949 - there are different accounts from different sides. Our side is convinced that it was Arab leaders who convinced Arab population to leave and let them kill all the Jews and they will return to the “cleansed” land. I am seriously claiming that the numbers of killed on the Palestinian side are grossly inflated because i saw videos of staged “victims” who miraculously stoop up from under white sheets the moment main cameras would stop rolling. I am also seriously  claiming that hamas and others before them use Palestinian civilians as “live shield” for their own atrocities. Forgive me for not taking “facts” posted on Aljazeera as “truth”. Also, read in your own quote - in Arabic the 1967 war is called “setback”. Think again about the name - it was just a setback in their grandiose plan to kill all the Jews. They wanted to kill all the Jews and instead lost land. Think of all that land as “security buffer”.

Well well, well suddenly you are a Russian fan hey? I'm going to give you a little history lesson. When the Soviet Union conquered all of Eastern Europe, they were using that as a buffer zone against the west. I think most of us would agree the Soviets were wrong. What do you think? 

This should be interesting..

10 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

In your imaginary world you can call it whatever you want. When you have “neighbours” whose only goal is to kill your and your family - you do what’s necessary to protect yourself.

Maybe try leaving your neighbour's land?

[Provost]

On 10/7/2023 at 1:49 AM, Scottish Canuck 2.0 said:

It’s terrible. Civilians should never be targeted and this is going to cause absolute carnage throughout that region.

 

Nobody can condone violence on this scale, but Israel has to accept an element of responsibility for this. They’ve trampled on the necks of the Palestinians for decades, illegally seized their land, herded them into smaller and smaller areas and brutally oppressed anyone who dare oppose them there.

 

The result is that Palestinians are born to hate anything Israeli. It was sadly inevitable.

Yes, this is all too tangled for pretty much anyone to fully sort out.

The one thing most neutral observers agree on is that a two state solution with Israel removing itself from the occupied territories is the only way to start  real peace process.  Israeli's don't want that and vote in ultra right wing governments to treat Arabs worse.  Groups like Hamas get power from this so violence flares up regularly.

You can't oppress millions of people, deny them food, water, medicine, and chance to build a future... and just expect them to die out quietly.

Of course, if Israel gave up its illegal occupations... who knows if Hamas and those other groups don't keep pushing the other way and occupy Israel.  It would literally have to be a demilitarized border on both sides with generations of UN peacekeepers in the middle to keep the two apart until the atrocities faded in distant memories.

[Ryan Strome]

6 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

yeah I got raked pretty good for suggesting all Russians weren't evil and some "allies" had some warts. 

 

None of this is simple or fair or right. I can't understand what Hamas leadership is thinking here or how they will gain anything for their people. 

 

Yeah it's pretty bizarre I seen people just even mention why is a Russian athlete being penalized for this and they were just attacked but meanwhile I don't recall American athletes being banned from things.

 

In my opinion Hamas is trying to drag Iran into this war. If I ran in Israel end up in a war that will be a very big deal that has the most likely scenario of dragging the United States into that war.

 

To be perfectly honest, that would probably be exactly what Putin would love to see right now.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Ryan Strome