Hamas attacking Israel

[moosehead]

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

In this we agree completely.  Allowing Saudi Arabia on the human rights council.  or Iran.  Allowing Russia on the security council.  The ability to bomb nations and terrorize people between Russia America and China who then get to veto any motions brought against them is a joke.

 

The UN has been a worthless and toothless entitiy for decades

 

The UN Operation in Côte d'Ivoire (UNOCI), which in 2011 helped restore legitimacy and stability along with French forces after violence broke out in the wake of an electoral crisis, with up to 7,000 uniformed personnel in the country, completed its mandate in June.Sep 20, 2017

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

 

You mean the same UN that elected Saudi Arabia to the Commission on the Status of Women? Isn’t that a bit like selecting an arsonist to be the fire chief?

 

According to the UN, the CSW “is the principal global intergovernmental body exclusively dedicated to the promotion of gender equality and the empowerment of women.”

 

yeah that one is a jaw dropper. When you live in a country where you have to ask your brothers permission to drive, maybe they shouldn't be heading up that particular office? 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Bob Long

[Warhippy]

4 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

The UN Operation in Côte d'Ivoire (UNOCI), which in 2011 helped restore legitimacy and stability along with French forces after violence broke out in the wake of an electoral crisis, with up to 7,000 uniformed personnel in the country, completed its mandate in June.Sep 20, 2017

And on the other hand

 

Look the UN isn't a bad idea.  it's just toothless and has no real power or credibility left.  You let Saudi frigging Arabia and Iran on the human rights councils or to the womens rights and equality councils you kind of lose a bit of credibility

 

Genocide in Rwanda and Srebrenica

The UN had an “Assistance Mission” for Rwanda in 1994, which failed to stop the majority Hutus from killing almost a million members of the Tutsi minority. The massacre of more than 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men at the hands of Serb forces in Srebrenica in 1995 was another UN failure. The sight of a UN peacekeeping force commander drinking a toast with the Serb commander damaged the UN’s reputation.

Rape and child sex abuse in the Congo

UN peacekeepers were accused of paying for sex or raping women and young girls they were supposed to be protecting in the Democratic Republic of Congo in early 2005. There have been similar allegations in countries ranging from Cambodia to Bosnia to Haiti.

Spreading cholera in Haiti

Genome testing showed that the world’s worst recent outbreak of cholera, which swept through Haiti after the 2010 earthquake, was likely started by a Nepali UN peacekeeping force who carried the disease. More 700,000 were infected and 8,000 died.

Iraq oil for food programme

This UN programme enabled Iraq to gain relief from international sanctions by selling oil through the UN, which would supervise the delivery of food and medicine with the resulting cash. However, the money ended up in private hands and became the worst financial scandal in UN history.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Warhippy

[Sabrefan1]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

maybe its just my daughter and her buddies, all of them have at least one job and/or school and they've figured out decent housing situations for themselves. Quite proud of them actually. 

 

They had proper and good upbringings with loving and conscientious parents.  They should thank God that they born into the families that they were and received what most seem not to.

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

They had proper and good upbringings with loving and conscientious parents.  They should thank God that they born into the families that they were and received what most seem not to.

 

its a pretty diverse group, but that could just be a Vancouver thing. They help each other out a lot. 

 

Dunno, just out in the world I think I'm seeing Z's dealing with things better, but maybe we just didn't feed them as much bullshit as millennials got? maybe Z's are jut a bit more realistic in their expectations.

 

But this is a major diversion from fighting about Israel. 

[bishopshodan]

52 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

^ this that Bibi and Hamas have some shared goal 

 

 

I think that Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah and others want to rid the world of Jews, period. 

 

We can get into historical arguments but to me at the end of the day its important to remember this key fact. 

 

 

I meant a shared goal of conflict as opposed to peace.

 

Is there any reason to think Netenyahu wants a Palestinian state? If so, why did he retract the settlement act ? why did he say the things about propping up Hamas?

 

 

[Bob Long]

32 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

 

Kind of seems like they're literally saying ALL PARTIES

 

But then maybe I am reading that wrong

 

"all parties" I'm cool with. At least its accurate. 

[Bob Long]

8 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

I meant a shared goal of conflict as opposed to peace.

 

Is there any reason to think Netenyahu wants a Palestinian state? If so, why did he retract the settlement act ? why did he say the things about propping up Hamas?

 

 

 

I dunno, sometimes I think the hard-liners push the envelope because they know things won't occur but they like playing the part, who knows. Kind of like the gun lobby in Canada, they know we'll never have a "2nd amendment" but they keep trying. I don't know any of the other hard line players in the Israeli government so maybe there's worse than him yet. 

 

Just reading the NY Times this am and it does seem like Bibi may have gone too far this time for most people in Israel. We'll see who's left standing after the next election which I imagine will come pretty soon. 

[Sabrefan1]

24 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

its a pretty diverse group, but that could just be a Vancouver thing. They help each other out a lot. 

 

Dunno, just out in the world I think I'm seeing Z's dealing with things better, but maybe we just didn't feed them as much bullshit as millennials got? maybe Z's are jut a bit more realistic in their expectations.

 

But this is a major diversion from fighting about Israel. 

 

Things are definitely different in your patch of the world than they are most elsewhere.  I'm glad for you.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Sabrefan1 said:

 

Things are definitely different in your patch of the world than they are most elsewhere.  I'm glad for you.

 

Sorry to hear that, I kind of thought Buffalo was quite similar to a lot of cities in Canada. 

[bishopshodan]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I dunno, sometimes I think the hard-liners push the envelope because they know things won't occur but they like playing the part, who knows. Kind of like the gun lobby in Canada, they know we'll never have a "2nd amendment" but they keep trying. I don't know any of the other hard line players in the Israeli government so maybe there's worse than him yet. 

 

Just reading the NY Times this am and it does seem like Bibi may have gone too far this time for most people in Israel. We'll see who's left standing after the next election which I imagine will come pretty soon. 

 

But they just repealed the settlement thing this year...

To me, that shows that, obviously, Isreal planned to keep illegally taking land.

 

Is there any hope left for the Palestinians when acts like this are repealed? 

 

Once a human loses hope, all is lost.

 

[Bob Long]

8 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

But they just repealed the settlement thing this year...

To me, that shows that, obviously, Isreal planned to keep illegally taking land.

 

wasn't that a West Bank thing? not to minimize it, but this current conflict is about Gaza isn't it? 

 

8 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Is there any hope left for the Palestinians when acts like this are repealed? 

 

Once a human loses hope, all is lost.

 

 

its unfortunate that Hamas gained power, without that I don't know that we're here today. 

 

Dunno, man its a crap show thats just going to get worse before it gets better. 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

How ironic that CNN questions the IDF about killing civilians during a bomb drop to kill a Hamas commander.  This is the same CNN that was covering the Iraq war for months and watching over 1 million innocent Iraqi civilians die while the US Industrial Military Complex was illegally invading another country and dropping bombs on an hourly basis on innocent civilians while trying to take out its leader based on a lie...

 

 

[Warhippy]

7 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

How ironic that CNN questions the IDF about killing civilians during a bomb drop to kill a Hamas commander.  This is the same CNN that was covering the Iraq war for months and watching over 1 million innocent Iraqi civilians die while the US Industrial Military Complex was illegally invading another country and dropping bombs on an hourly basis on innocent civilians while trying to take out its leader based on a lie...

 

 

the what aboutism is kind of cringe worthy

 

pointing out what is a known wrong elsewhere in history doesn't deflect from what is wrong now.  dead people are dead and not talking points or collateral damage

[Boudrias]

8 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

How ironic that CNN questions the IDF about killing civilians during a bomb drop to kill a Hamas commander.  This is the same CNN that was covering the Iraq war for months and watching over 1 million innocent Iraqi civilians die while the US Industrial Military Complex was illegally invading another country and dropping bombs on an hourly basis on innocent civilians while trying to take out its leader based on a lie...

 

 

Isn't this Hamas strategy to hide behind their own people? If the IDF stops their operations then Hamas pays a minor price for what they did on October 7th. If the death of Palestinians is the price that is paid then how many must die? If Hamas is not destroyed then what avenue does peace take? There are many who want to kill all Jews and not just those in Israel. I cannot see how this situation will change unless Arabs accept the existence of Israel and Israel can be confident that won't change. 

[Elias Pettersson]

8 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Isn't this Hamas strategy to hide behind their own people? If the IDF stops their operations then Hamas pays a minor price for what they did on October 7th. If the death of Palestinians is the price that is paid then how many must die? If Hamas is not destroyed then what avenue does peace take? There are many who want to kill all Jews and not just those in Israel. I cannot see how this situation will change unless Arabs accept the existence of Israel and Israel can be confident that won't change. 

 

I agree.  Hamas would love nothing more than to have as many Palestinians die as possible for their own propaganda to get more people on their side.  They want Israel to keep bombing them.  They want a ground war.  I'm sure they knew Israel would respond in this fashion after they murdered 1400 Israelis on October 7.  This was their whole game plan...

[Bob Long]

12 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Isn't this Hamas strategy to hide behind their own people? If the IDF stops their operations then Hamas pays a minor price for what they did on October 7th. If the death of Palestinians is the price that is paid then how many must die? If Hamas is not destroyed then what avenue does peace take? There are many who want to kill all Jews and not just those in Israel. I cannot see how this situation will change unless Arabs accept the existence of Israel and Israel can be confident that won't change. 

 

thats pretty much it. 

[Gurn]

Collective punishment.

 

A few months back a disturbed guy, from Powell River took an hammer to the head of a big time politician's hubby.

Using the idea of collective punishment, as Israel is doing, would by the same logic, allow and condone the US blowing up all the Houses and thousands of people in this town.

 

Truly a disgraceful policy.

 

 

[RomanPer]

6 minutes ago, aaaaargh said:

Respectfully, the logic of "Hamas hides behind its own people" is sort of nonsensical. By the same logic, you would say that Israeli soldiers "hide behind their families" - when they go home, or even patrol inside most of Israel. There is no excuse for massacring 50 civilians to kill 1 enemy commander, but unfortunately, this has been the standard practice of Israel. Frankly, it mirrors Hamas's rocket attacks which are lobbed in the general direction of Israel. 

 

Again, for too many people, this conflict started on October 7th. People have largely bought into the lie that Israelis and Palestinians are equal participants in a land squabble, when the truth is hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were forced out of their homes at gunpoint in order to make way for Israel. This is how Israel was founded, and its how it has continued to conquer more land in the West Bank. The demand of Palestinians from day 1 has been very simple:

 

Let us go home. In every other war around the world, civilians are allowed to return to the homes they were forced out of. Israel instead expropriated those homes using the "absentee property law". 

 

Until the people who were evicted from their homes are allowed to return to the towns and villages they came from, they will continue to fight. 

 

Some people make Israel try to seem reasonable by saying "they offered a state". Thats well and good, but Israel itself would never have been happy with a "state" alone. It wanted a state IN what it felt was its historic homeland from 2000 years prior. Surely then they can understand why the refugees they evicted would want the same thing - to go home to their towns that they were evicted from.

 

Until people understand that THIS is the root of the fight, there wont be peace. Its not complicated. Its very very simple.

 

Quality first message... Israel accepted the 1947 plan, which was a lot smaller than what was our homeland 2000 years ago. Any gains since were direct result of Arab aggression.

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

wasn't that a West Bank thing? not to minimize it, but this current conflict is about Gaza isn't it? 

 

 

its unfortunate that Hamas gained power, without that I don't know that we're here today. 

 

Dunno, man its a crap show thats just going to get worse before it gets better. 

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/10/30/bilal-went-out-to-harvest-his-olives-an-israeli-settler-shot-him

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/30/west-bank-settlers-violence-palestinians/

 

From earlier this year

 

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-747063

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/2/27/photos-israeli-settlers-rampage-in-northern-west-bank#:~:text=Israeli settlers have set dozens,of settler violence in decades.

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, aaaaargh said:

 

Arabs will accept the existence of Israel in a heartbeat if they are allowed to return to the villages and towns they came from.

 

The reason they refuse to recognize the state of Israel is because Israel declares itself a "Jewish state", and recognizing that would mean forfeiting their rights to go back to Haifa, Jaffa, and all the other cities and towns they were evicted from. 

 

Israel of course will never allow this - the only way Isrsael became a Jewish state and can remain a Jewish state is by keeping those refugees OUT. 

 

 

 

Lol, this is just too funny. Google is your friend to find all the quotes of various Palestinian representatives about the true intentions of their negotiations with Israel. But the best one is Chapter 7 in Hamas (here, found it for you):

 

Now tell me again how much peace we would have with these particular guys...

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, aaaaargh said:

 

Arabs will accept the existence of Israel in a heartbeat if they are allowed to return to the villages and towns they came from.

 

The reason they refuse to recognize the state of Israel is because Israel declares itself a "Jewish state", and recognizing that would mean forfeiting their rights to go back to Haifa, Jaffa, and all the other cities and towns they were evicted from. 

 

Israel of course will never allow this - the only way Isrsael became a Jewish state and can remain a Jewish state is by keeping those refugees OUT. 

 

 

What if the Palestinians get to draw the boundaries of division of the region into two parts, and the Israelis get to choose the part they prefer? 

[Coconuts]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/31/west-bank-violence-settler-crisis-gaza-israel-palestine/

[Super19]

Palestine is fcked. Plain and simple. Israel isn't holding back this time, especially given the 'no red lines' nod from USA. I think Netanyahu gets what he wants, which is an Israel from the river to the sea. Hard to imagine there being a Palestinian state from this. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Super19

[Bob Long]

25 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/10/30/bilal-went-out-to-harvest-his-olives-an-israeli-settler-shot-him

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/30/west-bank-settlers-violence-palestinians/

 

From earlier this year

 

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-747063

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/2/27/photos-israeli-settlers-rampage-in-northern-west-bank#:~:text=Israeli settlers have set dozens,of settler violence in decades.

 

I think these are the folks Roman is talking about that aren't doing the conflict any good.

 

I was trying to find the actual government policy on the West Bank reversal, so far all I've found is this idea that its ancestral land so its not an occupation, which seems to have been supported by the Trump administration. Not sure what Biden's take is.