Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

4 hours ago, Provost said:

 

I posted it earlier in the thread, it is available on Google pretty easily.

 

I posted the entire charter in the spoiler you responded to. I read it and still conclude the charter calls for Moslems, each of the three major groups; Arab, Palestinian & Islamic. To play their role in ''the Liberation of Palestine!'' Which includes Israel.

 

Its effectively based on hereditary evolution of their religions. As components of Palestine have become integral to its scripture, at least how Hamas interpret it, the way Muslims pray & live their life in relation to their religion. Effectively, their religious rights superseded those of others that had religious beliefs, shrines and ways of life associated with a land they each lived over time. It also says peaceful solutions are in contradiction to the principals of the Islamic resistance movement. 

 

Peaceful solutions? Are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of Moslems as arbitrators. This calls for all Muslims to unite & eradicate anyone in their way, not settle borders. Not coincidentally, there are Israeli Settlers, I have watched their posts on You Tube; justifying eradicating Palestinians from the West Bank on the basis they 'had religious' rights' more than a thousand years older than Palestinians. So they kill Palestinians, settle on the land. The hard liners of both sides believe their rights are more important than others! Again, the whole charter is up in that spoiler. I again applaud your assessment of groundwork for a peaceful solution.  So please let us know how their charter calls for borders to be constructed?

 

Here are more points that suggest Hamas will call for other Moslems to join, will not negotiate;

 

Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

The Three Circles:

Article Fourteen:

The question of the liberation of Palestine is bound to three circles: the Palestinian circle, the Arab circle and the Islamic circle. Each of these circles has its role in the struggle against Zionism. Each has its duties, and it is a horrible mistake and a sign of deep ignorance to overlook any of these circles. Palestine is an Islamic land which has the first of the two kiblahs (direction to which Moslems turn in praying), the third of the holy (Islamic) sanctuaries, and the point of departure for Mohamed's midnight journey to the seven heavens (i.e. Jerusalem).

"Praise be unto him who transported his servant by night, from the sacred temple of Mecca to the farther temple of Jerusalem, the circuit of which we have blessed, that we might show him some of our signs; for Allah is he who heareth, and seeth." (The Night-Journey - verse 1).

Since this is the case, liberation of Palestine is then an individual duty for very Moslem wherever he may be. On this basis, the problem should be viewed. This should be realised by every Moslem.

The day the problem is dealt with on this basis, when the three circles mobilize their capabilities, the present state of affairs will change and the day of liberation will come nearer.

"Verily ye are stronger than they, by reason of the terror cast into their breasts from Allah. This, because they are not people of prudence." (The Emigration - verse 13).

The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Duty:

[the destroyer of worlds]

Just now, bolt said:

https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel-attacks-again-and-again-until-its-destroyed/?utm_campaign=nypost&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

 

How exactly does Israel defend itself from a terrorist organization?  Moosehead you think isis and hamas are understanding organizations?

It doesn't defend itself by bombing the refugee camp.

 

People like me are NOT saying Israel can't defend itself.  We are critical of the methods that Israel is currently employing. 

 

People like me have been critical of what the Saudis are doing in Yemen.   We were critical of the Yemen mission TRUMP ordered when he first took office in 2017.  A mission that the Obama administration passed on.  A mission that lead to civilian deaths.

 

 

 

[moosehead]

16 minutes ago, bolt said:

https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel-attacks-again-and-again-until-its-destroyed/?utm_campaign=nypost&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

 

How exactly does Israel defend itself from a terrorist organization?  Moosehead you think isis and hamas are understanding organizations?

 

Yes, no doubt a challenging issue for Israeli security.....  but killing / murdering thousands   of Gaza  children is NOT  really a policy that i can  Support .

 

Maybe time to think of a new strategy, don't you think ?

Edited November 1, 2023 by moosehead

[Gurn]

[bolt]

https://digitaleditions.telegraph.co.uk/data/1505/reader/reader.html?#!preferred/0/package/1505/pub/1505/page/64/article/NaN

 

The only way out of this.  

[moosehead]

 

The world is watching in disgust with Israel.....

 

 

 

Bolivia has become the first Latin American country to cut diplomatic ties with Israel over what it describes as "aggressive and disproportionate" military actions in Gaza.

 

Chile's President Gabriel Boric said on Tuesday he was recalling the country's ambassador in Tel Aviv for consultations "given the unacceptable violations of International Humanitarian Law that Israel has incurred in the Gaza Strip."

 

Colombian President Gustavo Petro made a similar announcement on social media

 

Brazil's President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva urged a ceasefire. Following reports of a new Israeli air strike in Gaza, Lula said on X: "We are seeing, for the first time, a war in which the majority of those killed are children... Stop! For the love of God, stop

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-67281584

[moosehead]

 

Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations Gilad Erdan says the country will deny visas to UN officials after remarks by Secretary-General Antonio Guterres that appeared to justify Hamas’s brutal assault on Israel.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-denying-visas-to-un-officials-after-guterres-seemed-to-justify-hamas-assault/

Edited November 1, 2023 by moosehead

[Warhippy]

5 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

So this curious to me. Why does Israel have to accept a solution where it's borders are not officially recognized? Not sure how that state of non recognition solves anything?

 

In the other countries you posted above (other than Israel) they all have borders built on military action.

 

Whats the reason Israel doesn't have that same right?

What are the legal and recognized borders of Israel then via the UN and international law?

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

What are the legal and recognized borders of Israel then via the UN and international law?

 

I guess the map we're looking at now? or the one when this current war is over?

 

Its not the UN's opinion that matters, its what the Palestinians and Israeli's finally agree are the borders. Until there's a recognition of who's land is who's, this whole thing will just continue.

 

The idea of having some kind of amorphous 1/2 pregnant non-acknowledgement will just keep people fighting, imo, and keep the hyperbole going over what Gaza is or isn't. 

 

Some kind of finality is needed on the borders, and then they need to stick to it. 

 

 

[Warhippy]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I guess the map we're looking at now? or the one when this current war is over?

 

Its not the UN's opinion that matters, its what the Palestinians and Israeli's finally agree are the borders. Until there's a recognition of who's land is who's, this whole thing will just continue.

 

The idea of having some kind of amorphous 1/2 pregnant non-acknowledgement will just keep people fighting, imo, and keep the hyperbole going over what Gaza is or isn't. 

 

Some kind of finality is needed on the borders, and then they need to stick to it. 

 

 

So the borders are as recognized post war/occupation?

 

That is what would be justifiable and acceptable?

[moosehead]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

So the borders are as recognized post war/occupation?

 

That is what would be justifiable and acceptable?

 

Yah, I don't think Ukraine is going to accept the border as of todays Russian occupation..... 

 

No thanks.   Dream on Dreamers.....

Edited November 1, 2023 by moosehead

[Bob Long]

Just now, Warhippy said:

So the borders are as recognized post war/occupation?

 

That is what would be justifiable and acceptable?

 

it has been in western history so far, hasn't it? 

 

If we're not going to accept that as an international community, then we should have a good reason why, and also follow through with that same reasoning on any future conflicts. 

 

Which border seems fair to you? 

[Warhippy]

6 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

it has been in western history so far, hasn't it? 

 

If we're not going to accept that as an international community, then we should have a good reason why, and also follow through with that same reasoning on any future conflicts. 

 

Which border seems fair to you? 

1967 seems fine by myself.  remove the rot of Hamas and help the Palestinian people heal and find. a way.  Remove the illegal settlements and start the healing process.  Seems far right?

 

Or, at this point in time the west should accept the loss of Crimea and Donbas and tell Ukraine to stop attacking those areas as they are justifiably and rightly that of Russia as Russian did successfully take and occupy them for a significant amount of time.

 

I mean if we're not going to accept that as an international community, then we should have a good reason why, and also follow through the that same reasoning on any future conflicts.

 

Which border seems fair to you?

Edited November 1, 2023 by Warhippy

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

1967 seems fine by myself.  remove the rot of Hamas and help the Palestinian people heal and find. a way.  Remove the illegal settlements and start the healing process.  Seems far right?

 

that does seem to be the borders a lot of people come back to. The far-right settlements in the West Bank certainly seem unnecessarily provocative. 

 

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

Or, at this point in time the west should accept the loss of Crimea and Donbas and tell Ukraine to stop attacking those areas as they are justifiably and rightly that of Russia as Russian did successfully take and occupy them for a significant amount of time.

 

I mean if we're not going to accept that as an international community, then we should have a good reason why, and also follow through the that same reasoning on any future conflicts.

 

Which border seems fair to you?

 

The Ukraine war isn't over yet. 

 

[moosehead]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

that does seem to be the borders a lot of people come back to. The far-right settlements in the West Bank certainly seem unnecessarily provocative. 

 

 

The Ukraine war isn't over yet. 

 

 

According to Hamas the war in Israel is also not over yet....

[Warhippy]

20 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

that does seem to be the borders a lot of people come back to. The far-right settlements in the West Bank certainly seem unnecessarily provocative. 

 

 

The Ukraine war isn't over yet. 

 

So if it ends tomorrow will you then request or demand that russia hand over crimea and all taken terroitories?  Or will you accept and respect their control and ownership of it?

[moosehead]

Ethnic cleansing of Gaza will not fix anything...

Enough bloodshed has been shed. Enough women and children have been killed.

Time now for a cease fire and start sowing the seeds of Peace....

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by moosehead

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

So if it ends tomorrow will you then request or demand that russia hand over crimea and all taken terroitories?  Or will you accept and respect their control and ownership of it?

 

So it theoretically ends tomorrow and we're assuming Russian control of these areas? unless we're willing to wage continued war, I don't see what other choice there is but to live with what Russia took by force. But without either a negotiated settlement between Russia and Ukraine (not happening), or Ukraine defeating Russia and having an ongoing deterrent from being attacked again, it won't be a stable region. It will always be disputed. 

 

This is the problem, too many countries and groups who  don't respect Israel's borders, even the '67 ones from what I can tell. We're not at the point yet in Israel where people want to reach a consensus either if they are still setting in places that were not supposed to be settled on anymore. 

 

So I don't know, is it 1948? 1967? 2023/24? which one is the one we all agree on? 

 

[bolt]

Hamas: “we will repeat the October 7 massacre time and again, 1M times if we need to, until we end the occupation.“

Journalist: “occupation of Gaza?”

Hamas: “no, all of Israel.”

 

How do you negotiate a ceasefire with a group that only has one goal?

[bolt]

1 hour ago, moosehead said:

Ethnic cleansing of Gaza will not fix anything...

Enough bloodshed has been shed. Enough women and children have been killed.

Time now for a cease fire and start sowing the seeds of Peace....

 

 

Vs Hamas:The massacres and terrorist attacks will continue until attitudes improve.  

[Provost]

So the Israeli response to the international condemnation over bombing a refugee camp…. was to bomb it again for good measure as I guess they missed too many kids last time?

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/1/israel-hamas-war-live-anger-grows-over-israeli-attack-on-gaza-refugee-camp

 

 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

23 minutes ago, Provost said:

So the Israeli response to the international condemnation over bombing a refugee camp…. was to bomb it again for good measure as I guess they missed too many kids last time?

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/1/israel-hamas-war-live-anger-grows-over-israeli-attack-on-gaza-refugee-camp

 

 

 

 

Let’s separate the Israeli Leadership from the ‘Israeli’s’. 
 

Words matter. 
 

Just like Palestinians aren’t all Hamas, Israelis aren’t are their government. 
 

This is the kind of nuance needed going further so that we can have better discourse here amongst ourselves. 

[Squirter]

5 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Ah, I see. So my ideas are all false and the other side is totally based in reality. Got it. Clearly not a biased position at all...

When one refuses to look at the evidence pouring in every day of the outright murder of whole neighborhoods by dropping precision air strikes, that amounts to collective punishment of civilians not condemning these attacks is ignoring the truth and creating one’s own reality in the guise of self defence while they act as the perpetrators and also the victims. Denial and playing the victims role will get one only so far. They killed one of ours so let’s kill 1 child every 10 minutes to show them who we are, totally truthful and realistic.

 

A top UN human rights official, who resigned over the body’s handling of the war in Gaza, has told Al Jazeera that Israel’s actions in Gaza amount to “genocide”.

 

“Usually the most difficult part of proving genocide is intent, because there has to be an intention to destroy in whole or, in part, a particular group. In this case, the intent by Israeli leaders has been so explicitly stated and publicly stated by the prime minister, by the president, by senior cabinet ministers, by military leaders, that that is an easy case to make,” Craig Mokhiber told Al Jazeera’s Gabriel Elizondo. “It’s on the public record.”

Edited November 2, 2023 by Squirter

[moosehead]

1 hour ago, Sharpshooter said:

Let’s separate the Israeli Leadership from the ‘Israeli’s’. 
 

Words matter. 
 

Just like Palestinians aren’t all Hamas, Israelis aren’t are their government. 
 

This is the kind of nuance needed going further so that we can have better discourse here amongst ourselves. 

 

 

100% true

 

I know on my behalf sometimes i am typing and i lazily put Israeli... when clearly it should be Israell government.  Big difference.

Israel has millions of people that disagree with this current  Israeli government policy of ethnic cleansing and collective punishment / genocide.

 

Totally agree with your point. I will try to be  less lazy and put the blame where it actually lies.  Israeli government , Hamas and IDF . 

Edited November 2, 2023 by moosehead

[Elias Pettersson]

Hamas leader calls for the complete destruction of Israel…