Hamas attacking Israel

[bishopshodan]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Because of the way Hamas is, it's actually hard to answer this because they haven't allowed an election since they took power in Gaza.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Kinda my point and why I asked that poster why he makes that assertion about the majority of Palestinians...

Is he including the 1.6million that live in Isreal? 

 

Careless statement imo. But i tried to give him an article about it anyway, just incase he wants to learn a bit. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by bishopshodan

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Thank you.

 

Kinda my point and why I asked that poster why he makes that assertion about the majority of Palestinians...

Is he including the 1.6million that live in Isreal? 

 

Careless statement imo. But i tried to give him an article about it anyway, just incase he wants to learn a bit. 

 

Well there's a lot to unpack there. Can we infer there's support? For sure. Can we put a number on it? Nope.

 

Not sure it matters. Hamas does the horrible crap it does and also removes any chance for democratic peace.

 

Regardless of the percentage of supporters they have to go.

[bishopshodan]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

Well there's a lot to unpack there. Can we infer there's support? For sure. Can we put a number on it? Nope.

 

Not sure it matters. Hamas does the horrible crap it does and also removes any chance for democratic peace.

 

Regardless of the percentage of supporters they have to go.

I agree with you.

Not with him.

 

Big blanket statement that he could not really know. But my guess is using the word 'majority' is only put there by him to justify his support of what Isreal is doing.

 

As has been mentioned a few times in this thread... lets not paint all Palestinians as Hamas and lets not paint all Jews as Zionist, Bibi supporters. 

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

I agree with you.

Not with him.

 

Big blanket statement that he could not really know. But my guess is using the word 'majority' is only put there by him to justify his support of what Isreal is doing.

 

As has been mentioned a few times in this thread... lets not paint all Palestinians as Hamas and lets not paint all Jews as Zionist, Bibi supporters. 

 

I don’t know if you meant it, but you just put “Zionist” and “Hamas” as one and the same. Not every Zionist is a crazy settler.

[bishopshodan]

3 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I don’t know if you meant it, but you just put “Zionist” and “Hamas” as one and the same. Not every Zionist is a crazy settler.

My apologies. It is more Bibi that i dont trust.

 

I am still trying to learn. Thank you for your correction. 

[Taxi]

7 hours ago, Canuckle said:

 

Since you ignored my previous post and jumped right back into...whatever this is...  I'm gonna repost it.

 

Genocide is in fact Israeli policy. Just as it was policy of the Canadian government with Indigenous peoples or Australian government with Aboriginal peoples.

 

That land you're currently on? Yeah, I want it. Move so I can take it. Or I kill you and then take it anyway.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

 

People can try and justify all sorts of shit in all sorts of ways. Sure, use some scripture. Whatever it takes to claim to be right. The end result is the still same.

 

And last I checked I didn't see Palestinians bulldozing, taking homes and throwing people on the streets claiming them for themselves. The Israeli state on the other hand...

 

 

 

Israel gained control of the West Bank after it was invaded by outside nations multiple times. They offered 97% and 95% (plus land swaps within Israel) of it to the Palestinians in exchange for peace. Instead, the Palestinians elected Hamas to lead them. 

 

Name one time, after a war, the victorious nation just gave all the land back, while being threatened by the losing nation.

 

While I agree that taking land in the West Bank is an act of conflict. Both sides, however, are clearly engaging in conflict. To expect the victorious nation to just give up disputed land when they are being threatened is absurd. Hamas has straight up said that if they get land back, it will only ever result in a temporary ceasefire and they will use that land to attack Israel. Which is exactly what happened when Israel withdrew all its people from Gaza. Hamas took the area over after and used it as a staging ground to launch attacks at Israel. Even most recently, Israel had allowed 20,000 workers from Gaza to work in Israel. Hamas used that opportunity to gather intel on the surrounding communities, which was how their attack on Oct 7 was so effective.

 

On top of that this matter is complicated by the fact that Jewish people have historical, cultural, and genetic roots in the West Bank, and there were Jews living in the West Bank prior to 1944 who were all expelled by the Arabs.

 

Especially after Oct 7, Israel has no obligation to make continued one sided peace offerings. Hamas has straight up said they will never have a peace agreement with Israel.

[bishopshodan]

Biden is calling for a pause. 

[RomanPer]

Let’s talk again about “400 civilians dead at the refugee camp”. Just like we talked about “500 people dead after Israeli bombing of the hospital”…

 

[Taxi]

4 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Biden is calling for a pause. 

What he actually said was he wants a pause to get the hostages out. Israel would definitely allow that if it means release of the hostages. Not a chance Hamas releases the hostages and then goes back to war after. That's their only leverage right now.

 

I do think that Hamas should immediately release all the foreign workers and international students they are holding. Those people aren't involved in this conflict.

[bolt]

hamas-massacre.net

 

 

[Bob Long]

38 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

As has been mentioned a few times in this thread... lets not paint all Palestinians as Hamas and lets not paint all Jews as Zionist, Bibi supporters. 

 

100%. I really only think this is happening with a couple of folks on here. 

 

 

[Canuckle]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

You are Native Canadian, or Palestinian?

 

Jewish people were in these contested regions 1500 years before they became sacred to 'Palestinians.' Have a guess how they became sacred to Muslim's? 

 

Have another guess what happened to Jewish people living in Palestine, their ancestral home in 1935?  They were suffering the same, lets use your term, Genocide, as Palestinian people today. Restricted access to their religious sites.  Being forced off their lands as displacement, secular violence, beatings, murder, forced control over businesses. Aggressive gangs killed people. On about the same scale as happened to Palestinians after. So they fought for their home exactly as you would have?

 

Here is a picture I took in a 2000 year old Mosque about 15 years ago. A mosaic of Jesus in Roman times that had been covered by Persian artifacts 500 years ago, uncovered. How dare those guys! It was a church for almost 1500 years, now a call to Muslim prayers rings through the sky at 4AM every day. 

 

 

 

My own guess is if you feel mistreated as an aboriginal? Think how Jews would feel.  

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

You are Native Canadian, or Palestinian?

 

Jewish people were in these contested regions 1500 years before they became sacred to 'Palestinians.' Have a guess how they became sacred to Muslim's? 

 

Have another guess what happened to Jewish people living in Palestine, their ancestral home in 1935?  They were suffering the same, lets use your term, Genocide, as Palestinian people today. Restricted access to their religious sites.  Being forced off their lands as displacement, secular violence, beatings, murder, forced control over businesses. Aggressive gangs killed people. On about the same scale as happened to Palestinians after. So they fought for their home exactly as you would have?

 

Here is a picture I took in a 2000 year old Mosque about 15 years ago. A mosaic of Jesus in Roman times that had been covered by Persian artifacts 500 years ago, uncovered. How dare those guys! It was a church for almost 1500 years, now a call to Muslim prayers rings through the sky at 4AM every day. 

 

 

 

My own guess is if you feel mistreated as an aboriginal? Think how Jews would feel.  

 

 

 

Dodge and weave all you want. I repeat,

 

The Israeli state is an invading force. And no amount of rationalizing this or that atrocity, this or that passage in whatever book can convince me it's justified.

 

Just think. If our historically oppressed Indigenous populations became the ruling class in Canada...and they just started bulldozing and kicking people out of their homes into the streets in Vancouver.

 

This was our land before you got here. We will take it back by force if we have to.

 

Would that be right to do?

 

Not so much.

 

But we somehow convince ourselves it's justified for the Israeli state to do it to Palestinian people. And yes, it's Israeli state policy. You can go ahead and point the finger at whatever arab person or group you want. Until the systematic genocide in Palestine ends, Israel doesn't have a justifiable defense for much of anything here far as I'm concerned. 

 

When the oppressed become the oppressors. When the abused become the abusers. And on and on we go.

 

Yes, it's genocide. And pretty obvious at that.

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

 

Dodge and weave all you want. I repeat,

 

The Israeli state is an invading force. And no amount of rationalizing this or that atrocity, this or that passage in whatever book can convince me it's justified.

 

Just think. If our historically oppressed Indigenous populations became the ruling class in Canada...and they just started bulldozing and kicking people out of their homes into the streets in Vancouver.

 

This was our land before you got here. We will take it back by force if we have to.

 

Would that be right to do?

 

Not so much.

 

But we somehow convince ourselves it's justified for the Israeli state to do it to Palestinian people. And yes, it's Israeli state policy. You can go ahead and point the finger at whatever arab person or group you want. Until the systematic genocide in Palestine ends, Israel doesn't have a justifiable defense for much of anything here far as I'm concerned. 

 

When the oppressed become the oppressors. When the abused become the abusers. And on and on we go.

 

Yes, it's genocide. And pretty obvious at that.

 

By this definition, everyone but First Nations people should pack up and head to whatever country their ancestors came from. I guess I'm going to have to split myself in 1/2 and go my separate ways to Ukraine and Russia.

 

I didn't think this needed reminding, but Hamas invaded Israel to begin this latest conflict. 

 

[bolt]

50 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Let’s talk again about “400 civilians dead at the refugee camp”. Just like we talked about “500 people dead after Israeli bombing of the hospital”…

 

But we need to believe all the Hamas propaganda.   Don't they have a 100% success rate using their water pipe rockets?

[Canuckle]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

100%. I really only think this is happening with a couple of folks on here.

 

You may not be able to paint Palestinians in this light, but sure you can the Israeli state.

 

Genocide is Israel state policy codified in law and deemed moral by the state.

 

Settlement expansion has been in violation with international law but on and on it goes.

 

https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm

 

Israel is a terrorist state.

 

[Warhippy]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

 

My own guess is if you feel mistreated as an aboriginal? Think how Jews would feel.  

 

 

As a matter of fact.  I am in fact a recognized first nations individual in canada.

 

Having spent time as a kid on the reservation system and having family that survived the scoop program, forcible relocation as well as residential school systems.  I can actually empathize with the issues of Judaism over the last hundred years.  but with this in mind I can also sympathize with what has been happening in gaza to Palestinians and on the west bank for the exact same reasons

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

 

You may not be able to paint Palestinians in this light, but sure you can the Israeli state.

 

Genocide is Israel state policy codified in law and deemed moral by the state.

 

Settlement expansion has been in violation with international law but on and on it goes.

 

https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm

 

Israel is a terrorist state.

 

 

I really wish people wouldn't just throw extreme words around like that. You may not like Israel existing, but to just throw those ideas around is really not a good look. 

 

 

[Canuckle]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

By this definition, everyone but First Nations people should pack up and head to whatever country their ancestors came from. I guess I'm going to have to split myself in 1/2 and go my separate ways to Ukraine and Russia.

 

I didn't think this needed reminding, but Hamas invaded Israel to begin this latest conflict. 

 

They didn't "invade" anything.  What kind of standing army do they have?

 

Invade is the wrong word to use there.

 

One side has trillions worth of military gear and supplies, weapons defense systems, forced conscription, and the other has....? 

 

"By this definition, everyone but First Nations people should pack up and head to whatever country their ancestors came from."

 

More or less. But you can live on the streets, too. Or you can die. Maybe both. They don't care. Either way the notion 'this was ours before and we will take it back by force' if we have to do (and they do) leads to the genocide of an entire population.

[bishopshodan]

1 hour ago, Taxi said:

What he actually said was he wants a pause to get the hostages out. Israel would definitely allow that if it means release of the hostages. Not a chance Hamas releases the hostages and then goes back to war after. That's their only leverage right now.

 

I do think that Hamas should immediately release all the foreign workers and international students they are holding. Those people aren't involved in this conflict.

Yes.

Biden wants a pause.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Canuckle said:

They didn't "invade" anything.  What kind of standing army do they have?

 

Invade is the wrong word to use there.

 

no, its the right word. And they chose civilian targets.

 

You might have some sort of partial leg to stand on had Hamas only decided to attack military targets in Isreal, but they went after unarmed civilians. Maybe thats something you kind of glossed over in your analysis of the situation?

 

Just now, Canuckle said:

One side has trillions worth of military gear and supplies, weapons defense systems, forced conscription, and the other has....? 

 

rockets, bombs, training and support from Iran. Global support from people. BTW, do you support Hamas? I can't tell. 

 

Just now, Canuckle said:

"By this definition, everyone but First Nations people should pack up and head to whatever country their ancestors came from."

 

More or less. But you can live on the streets, too. Or you can die. Maybe both. They don't care. Either way the notion 'this was ours before and we will take it back by force' if we have to do (and they do) leads to the genocide of an entire population.

 

Again with that term. That hasn't happened. The only groups calling for that are Hamas, Iran and Hezbollah. 

 

[RomanPer]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

no, its the right word. And they chose civilian targets.

 

You might have some sort of partial leg to stand on had Hamas only decided to attack military targets in Isreal, but they went after unarmed civilians. Maybe thats something you kind of glossed over in your analysis of the situation?

 

 

rockets, bombs, training and support from Iran. Global support from people. BTW, do you support Hamas? I can't tell. 

 

 

Again with that term. That hasn't happened. The only groups calling for that are Hamas, Iran and Hezbollah. 

 

 

Don't waste your breath.

[Bob Long]

Just now, RomanPer said:

 

Don't waste your breath.

 

its really something, the terms that get thrown around when discussing Israel. You just don't hear it to the same extent with other global conflicts, imo. I can't put a quantity on it, but I think the bias is clear. Just my 2 cents. 

[Canuckle]

6 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I really wish people wouldn't just throw extreme words around like that. You may not like Israel existing, but to just throw those ideas around is really not a good look.

 

Oh you don't have talk to me about   that. Talk to the Israeli state. Because you're night. It's not a good look for them whatsoever.  Yes, genocide.

 

There may be a few of the converted in here claiming justification for whatever the fuck ideas have infected their brains, but I have no problem calling a spade a spade.

 

You already know how anarchists view hierarchical institutions of authority, the capitalist mode of production and the state appartus which holds the monopoly on the legimate use of force.... so are you really so surprised that leftists would view Israeli state action as genocidal?  Yes, water is wet.

 

Yes, Israel is a genocidal state. It is state policy.

 

They're just ramping up a bit more lately is all.

 

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls

[Warhippy]

It's remarkable how we've come full circle so many times in this thread in under 170 pages.

 

Let's unpack a few things here.  This is just my opinion only.

 

Nobody to my knowledge has ever said that there is no space or place for Jews, those of the jewish faith in the middle east.  Having been corrected recently; by and large almost to a poster most have not said that ISrael does not deserve to exist.

 

On the other side.  Most posters also do not conflate Israel and those of the jewish faith with Israeli policy.

 

To the counter, the same can be said about posts and posters comments and Palestine, Palestinians and Hamas.  For the most part.

 

Nobody can argue that Israeli policy under Netenyahu over the last 20 ish years has been aggressive and expansionist.  That the IDF forcing Palestinians out at gun point and violence for illegal settlements hasn't exacerbated an already hot issue.

 

At the same time nobody can argue that Hamas has not allowed for any legal or credible elections in almost 2 decades and forcibly coerces citizens in to doing what they want with threats of or acts of violence.

 

The statements made by israeli leadership about Hamas and about the ongoing settlement in Palestinian lands coupled with the near 2 decade blockades suggest that Israeli leadership is happy with how things are going and have been in no rush to remove the leadership of Hamas or help the Palestinian people rid themselves of them.

 

While the leadership of hamas is happy to siphon aid money and sit comfortably in other nations protected by friendly regimes knowing that they're safe and fighters fro other lands and pissed off Palestinian kids will do the dirty work for them.

 

The answer is very clear in that leadership from both groups and policies need to change immediately yet neither side is willing to do so.  Israelis have had the chance to rid themselves of the leadership causing the expansionist issues for almost 2 decades but haven't.  Palestinians have not had the same opportunity as they are effectively unarmed but the same methods need be applied to start to fix their issues.

 

Israel is currently killing fleas with hammers by dropping bombs indiscriminately claiming it is collateral or it is worth the price to kill one middling leader of Hamas; but this also suggests they know exactly where they are and how to remove them with surgical precision.  This suggests that they are happy to do things the way they are with blunt violence.

 

hamas happily uses the palestinians as shields knowing that israel is ok with collateral damage as it plays in to their hands.  Hamas also knows that 3 dead fighters is nothing because there are tens of thousands more armed by other nations which doesn't take a dime out of their fat and safe pockets.

 

The answer to both issues is clear.

 

Remove the leadership.

Start open lines of communication

End the blockades

Integrate

Stop the violence.

 

But both sides receive so much money from various sources as well as protection that ending this cycle means it is all over for them because once they can't hate each other the actual hard work starts and that doesn't earn them any money, protection or give them a green card towards violence.

 

Meanwhile, we all happily sit here and blame each side for their issues knowing that deep down both sides are incredibly wrong and a happily accept it without a care.

[Canuckle]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

no, its the right word. And they chose civilian targets.

 

You might have some sort of partial leg to stand on had Hamas only decided to attack military targets in Isreal, but they went after unarmed civilians. Maybe thats something you kind of glossed over in your analysis of the situation?

 

 

rockets, bombs, training and support from Iran. Global support from people. BTW, do you support Hamas? I can't tell. 

 

 

Again with that term. That hasn't happened. The only groups calling for that are Hamas, Iran and Hezbollah. 

 

No, it's the wrong word.  And nice of you to ignore the MASSIVE power discrepancy in standing armies and trillions of dollars of weapons I pointed out.

 

Palestinians didn't "invade" anyone.

 

You let me know when that occupied territory is no longer occupied and you can talk about who the invading force is