Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuckle]

18 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

its really something, the terms that get thrown around when discussing Israel. You just don't hear it to the same extent with other global conflicts, imo. I can't put a quantity on it, but I think the bias is clear. Just my 2 cents. 

 

Don't know what to tell you. I don't like Terrorist states. So it goes for Israel as it does for the United States or any other that commits crimes against humanity.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity

 

[King Heffy]

30 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

They didn't "invade" anything.  What kind of standing army do they have?

 

Invade is the wrong word to use there.

 

 

Not sure how else to describe foreign fighters massacring a music festival after crossing the border, with support from their "government".

[I.Am.Ironman]

11 hours ago, Canuckle said:

 

"Independently." By who? CNN? NBC? Mossad? Lol

 

And frankly it's irrelevant anyway.

Many news sources like those you listed but also Al Jazeera and even Fox have reported similar, along with governments/their intelligence agencies. But you won't trust anything that comes from news or governments if it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

And no, it's not irrelevant. Context matters. This is an area of the world with a complex history and conflict with nuance. Many people are making broad statements that over simplify the issue. The reality is someone needs a PhD in middle eastern history to have an educated opinion on this conflict that actually hold weight. I'm assuming very few of us here come close to meeting that criteria. Additionally, very few of us have practical military experience so who are we to judge how Israel executes its goal to eradicate Hamas.

[King Heffy]

14 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

No, it's the wrong word.  And nice of you to ignore the MASSIVE power discrepancy in standing armies and trillions of dollars of weapons I pointed out.

 

Palestinians didn't "invade" anyone.

 

You let me know when that occupied territory is no longer occupied and you can talk about who the invading force is

 

 

Do you think Israel has a right to exist?  All of it's territory is considered "occupied" by Hamas.

[JIAHN]

OK..................Been wanting to point this out and have not wanted to sound racist or inhumane, but......................

 

Since time began, Man has fought over land, wealth and women (slaves)

 

This is a reality.........

 

Ukraine has been owned by Poland, Russia, Turkey, Lithuania, and of course Ukraines. Wars have continually happened on that land

Haida warred with the Salish, long before white man ever showed up

African tribes have and are still warring, since time began...........

The English warred with the Scots, the French with the English, the Romans with the Greek's

The Mayans with the Inca's

 

And the list goes on...................not one of these wars/invasions were humane.............most were on mass..............and most were brutal

 

The truth is, in some cases, whole civilizations were displaced, and in some cases, almost eradicated..........

 

Man is vicious, and will use any means at their disposal to win.

 

There is always a winner and a losers, and the winner always dominates by oppression afterwards.

 

Today, we are bombarded by social media, and news is instant......and graphic! And manipulated! 

 

But in the end, it does not matter, peace comes when someone loses........some times too many people, sometimes their land, sometimes their will to fight!

 

It is a sad reality, and will continue, long after this period in time, and just like most have forgotten about WW! and WW2, these will be forgotten in time.......

 

Yes, it is real, yes it is sad, but it is reality...............

 

And lets face it.........the UN is useless!

 

Russia heading up the security Council

Iran heading up the Human Rights

 

Pretty bloody funny, really! Sadly Funny!

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by JIAHN

[Canuckle]

Just now, King Heffy said:

Not sure how else to describe foreign fighters massacring a music festival after crossing the border, with support from their "government".

 

Ooooo how many bulldozers and tanks did they bring with them.

 

Russia into Ukraine is an invasion.

 

Germany into Poland is an invasion.

 

Not sure what definition you're using but last I looked Palestinians didn't have an occupied territory to the their name where they bulldoze houses and throw residents to the streets.  Thats Israel you're thinking of.

 

This awful incident does not constitute an "invasion." Still not.  But the opposing case sure does. Just happens to be over a longer time period, moving inch by inch, home by home, stricture by structure, body by body, but hey. Hamas are the  "invaders" right?    ....uummmmm no

 

[Optimist Prime]

Opinion: This moment in history has created a perfect storm for antisemitism

 

Opinion by Frida Ghitis

 6 minute read 

Updated 4:37 AM EDT, Thu November 2, 2023

Some passengers feared for their lives Sunday night, when they landed at the main airport in Dagestan, a majority-Muslim Russian republic, and found their plane quickly swarmed by a throng that had smashed its way into the airport terminal and the tarmac after hearing that a flight from Tel Aviv was arriving.

A few of the rioters carried Palestinian flags, underscoring the obvious link between the attack and the war between Israel and Hamas. But the mob’s target was Jews.

In terrifying scenes, the rampaging crowd, some shouting “Allahu akbar,” surrounded passengers, pressuring them to prove they were not Jewish. Outside the terminal, they searched cars looking for Jews. One of the passengers told local media he was let through after showing his Russian passport and being told they were “not touching non-Jews today.”

The shocking event, in the country that gave the world the word “pogrom” — an organized massacre of Jews, common in the 19th and early 20th centuries — was one more in the global explosion of antisemitism that erupted immediately after thousands of Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel on October 7 and set out to kill as many Jews as they were able in gruesome fashion, murdering at least 1,400 men, women and children of all ages and taking hundreds more hostage into Gaza.

The surge in antisemitism became much more visible as Israel launched an operation to uproot Hamas, the Islamist organization that rules over Gaza, in a military campaign that has created enormous suffering for the Palestinians trapped between Hamas fighters — positioned in underground tunnels below civilians — the Israeli military and the Gaza border with Egypt, which remained closed until Wednesday when a limited number were let through.

------------edited for brevity----------read more at the link

As Israel Policy Forum’s Michael Koplow wrote, “… too much of the left is now demonstrating that its calls for universal justice exclude Jews from that universe.”

The historian Simon Sebag Montefiore, dismantling the “decolonization narrative” that scholars use against Israel, noted bitterly, “I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler.” Now, he said, he sees the same pattern among Hamas apologists and atrocity deniers, who ignore overwhelming evidence of what Hamas is and what it did.

The phenomenon, from the left and from the right, is unfolding across the globe. Antisemites have struck in Austria, South Africa, Nicaragua, Germany, Venezuela and elsewhere. In Milan, an anti-Israel protester shouted, “Open the borders so we can kill the Jews.” A teenager in an anti-Israel demonstration in Hamburg, Germany, shouted, “I’m for Hitler, for gassing the Jews.”

While antisemitism is rampant, it’s worth nothing that for millions around the world, the phenomenon is utterly unacceptable. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz said he was “outraged” after a synagogue was firebombed in Berlin, one of many political leaders around the world who have decried the assaults, from Australia to Argentina.

In the US, the Biden administration has stood at the forefront of the fight, pledging to take action. And Republican presidential candidates have also denounced antisemitic activities on university campuses.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/01/opinions/dagestan-antisemitism-rise-israel-ghitis/index.html

 

 

[Canuckle]

8 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

Many news sources like those you listed but also Al Jazeera and even Fox have reported similar, along with governments/their intelligence agencies. But you won't trust anything that comes from news or governments if it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

And no, it's not irrelevant. Context matters. This is an area of the world with a complex history and conflict with nuance. Many people are making broad statements that over simplify the issue. The reality is someone needs a PhD in middle eastern history to have an educated opinion on this conflict that actually hold weight. I'm assuming very few of us here come close to meeting that criteria. Additionally, very few of us have practical military experience so who are we to judge how Israel executes its goal to eradicate Hamas.

Yes, the orginal point was absolutely  irrelevant. It was ignoring the larger context of Israeli state policy to take land from the undesirable "barbarians."

 

Look with you waking eyes.  Which side has been bulldozing homes and kicking people to the streets and settling occupied lands. That ain't Palestinians.

 

And you don't need a PhD to see what's happening to Palestinian people.

 

It's textbook genocide.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity

 

But of course the oppressors deny doing the oppressing. What the fuck else is new.

[Canuckle]

22 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Do you think Israel has a right to exist?  All of it's territory is considered "occupied" by Hamas.

 

I'm glad you put that word in quotations. You already knew it was the wrong way to frame it. Like saying First Nations peoples "occupied" the lands of "Canada" would also be the wrong way to frame it.

 

This is what we're talking about when we say occupation:

 

Israel’s Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession

 

But since you ask, I don't think ANY state has the "right" to exist. Afterall, all anarchists oppose institutions of hierarchical authority, private property rights, and the state appartus. And that goes for Israel, the US, Canada or any other.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Israel

[Bob Long]

52 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Don't know what to tell you. I don't like Terrorist states.

 

 

no one does. 

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

no one does. 

No one does

 

 

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

No, it's the wrong word.  And nice of you to ignore the MASSIVE power discrepancy in standing armies and trillions of dollars of weapons I pointed out.

 

Isn't part of the definition of that word you like to use a net reduction in population? Palestinian population growth is about 5X since 1948. 

 

I don't care about pseudo-Marxist views on this. But if we're going to discuss regional power discrepancy anyway, lets look at the map of Arab states vs Jewish ones, then tell me about power imbalances. 

 

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

Palestinians didn't "invade" anyone.

 

No one said they did. Hamas did. 

 

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

You let me know when that occupied territory is no longer occupied and you can talk about who the invading force is

 

 

 

Which occupied territory are you talking about? 

 

[Satchmo]

3 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

But since you ask, I don't think ANY state has the "right" to exist. Afterall, all anarchists oppose institutions of hierarchical authority, private property rights, and the state appartus. And that goes for Israel, the US, Canada or any other.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Israel

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and have every right to voice it.

 

Some might say though that you listen to wrong people, read the wrong books (if at all), watch the wrong videos, etc. and generally lack the knowledge and/or life experience to critically think about what you think about.

 

Not that I would say that.  I've just heard it said.

[Bob Long]

41 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

 

It's textbook genocide.

 

 

no it isn't. You're disrespecting cultures that have actually gone through that. Go look at the Palestinian population numbers and try this again.

 

If the Israeli government was actually interested in something like this, there wouldn't be a West Bank. 

 

[Bob Long]

56 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

OK..................Been wanting to point this out and have not wanted to sound racist or inhumane, but......................

 

Since time began, Man has fought over land, wealth and women (slaves)

 

This is a reality.........

 

Ukraine has been owned by Poland, Russia, Turkey, Lithuania, and of course Ukraines. Wars have continually happened on that land

Haida warred with the Salish, long before white man ever showed up

African tribes have and are still warring, since time began...........

The English warred with the Scots, the French with the English, the Romans with the Greek's

The Mayans with the Inca's

 

And the list goes on...................not one of these wars/invasions were humane.............most were on mass..............and most were brutal

 

The truth is, in some cases, whole civilizations were displaced, and in some cases, almost eradicated..........

 

Man is vicious, and will use any means at their disposal to win.

 

There is always a winner and a losers, and the winner always dominates by oppression afterwards.

 

Today, we are bombarded by social media, and news is instant......and graphic! And manipulated! 

 

But in the end, it does not matter, peace comes when someone loses........some times too many people, sometimes their land, sometimes their will to fight!

 

It is a sad reality, and will continue, long after this period in time, and just like most have forgotten about WW! and WW2, these will be forgotten in time.......

 

Yes, it is real, yes it is sad, but it is reality...............

 

And lets face it.........the UN is useless!

 

Russia heading up the security Council

Iran heading up the Human Rights

 

Pretty bloody funny, really! Sadly Funny!

 

 

 

I was just in Japan and had a really interesting guide, who talked to us about the US influence there. Its really fascinating to see what happened in that circumstance from 1945 to today, and how things are viewed. Its really complex. 

 

You are 100% correct imo, both sides in a conflict have to decide its over. The world needs to recognize that its over, in order to heal and move on. We're not there yet with Israel, for some reason. I think I know what it is, and I think we see it in some comments in this thread. 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

Quote

Israel is discussing an option in which Hamas leaders will be allowed to leave the Gaza Strip in exchange for the release of all hostages, writes Yedioth Ahronoth.

 

[Canuckle]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

Isn't part of the definition of that word you like to use a net reduction in population? Palestinian population growth is about 5X since 1948. 

 

I don't care about pseudo-Marxist views on this. But if we're going to discuss regional power discrepancy anyway, lets look at the map of Arab states vs Jewish ones, then tell me about power imbalances. 

 

 

No one said they did. Hamas did. 

 

 

Which occupied territory are you talking about? 

 

My pseudo-Marxist views? Lol

 

Coming from a fascist enabler like yourself that's pretty fucking funny dude. Lol.

 

Deflect all you want. Dismiss all you want.

 

The fact is Israel is commiting genocide on Palestinians right now.

A genocide is under way in Palestine

And the imperial West is an active participant.

It is now clear that Israel is engaging in a genocide of the Palestinian people. As reported by Al Jazeera, the Israeli state has “loosened” its military rules of engagement, essentially giving its soldiers the green light to kill anyone they encounter inside the Gaza Strip as part of their ground operations. Israeli politicians and soldiers are talking openly about turning Gaza into dust, eliminating Palestinians, and imagining Israeli settlers living on land that used to be called Gaza. Palestinians are being deliberately deprived of all the basic necessities for life, including food, water, shelter and medical care. Bombs from the air are indiscriminately killing and maiming Palestinians. Palestinians are being encouraged to leave their lands and homes in northern Gaza and head towards the south – Israel clearly wants to colonise northern Gaza and turn it into a security or military zone, permanently expelling the Palestinians who currently live there.

Scholars of genocide have always argued that such mass atrocities are rarely the product of an “evil leader” or “a small extremist political class”. The terrifying reality of genocide is that it happens with mass support, which either comes in the form of active participation (direct and indirect), or complicity through silence.

I am not sure that we have ever seen a case of genocide being supported by this many actors, openly and actively. The majority of institutions in North America, Western Europe and elsewhere are either actively participating in this genocide, or completely silent and are thus complicit.

For genocide to happen, two critical elements are needed: the infrastructural and material capabilities to commit the genocide and the ability to conceal the genocide by calling it something other than what it is. The West is participating in both of these critical elements.

In terms of material capabilities, the United States empire has sent, not one, but two aircraft carriers to the region, and has made it abundantly clear in word and deed that if any state or group attempts to enter the picture and aid Palestinians in their desperate attempt to survive Israel’s genocidal operation, that the US will intervene with its full force. The United Kingdom has also sent naval ships to support this Western imperial threat to the people of the region. The US is sending military equipment and weaponry to Israel, refusing to call for a ceasefire or de-escalation. Corporations and economic institutions are providing financial support to Israel all in the name of supporting Israeli victims, as well as reportedly offering financial incentives to Egypt, attempting to entice it to host the Palestinian refugees who will not be allowed to re-enter the Gaza Strip. Years of US and Western aid and support to Israel have allowed Israel to develop the infrastructural capabilities to carry out a genocide.

In terms of concealment, political, media, social and cultural institutions are fully mobilised in the West to hide and conceal this act of genocide, presenting it as a righteous violence of a victimised Jewish people everywhere in the world. Those expressing support for Palestine in the West are being threatened with job loss (and are actually losing their jobs), possible criminal charges and bans, and other punitive measures and harassment campaigns. The media is continuously and consistently sending the outrageous message that Hamas is the one responsible for the loss of Palestinian civil life in the Gaza Strip, attempting to wash their hands clean of the genocide. The Israeli operation is being framed as a mission to “eliminate Hamas” as opposed to what it really is: a genocide of the Palestinian people and their erasure from the map. The few voices that are questioning these narratives are being marginalised, silenced and de-platformed.

In short, all of the establishment institutions in the West are mobilised, fully and coherently, at this moment in enabling the genocide of Palestinians, all under the guise of protecting “civilisation” from “barbarism”.

As I write this, I am dreading what’s to come. The suffering that Palestinians have endured so far is already unfathomable and very difficult to register in words. And what is coming is going to be even worse.

In moments like this, everything becomes clear. It was clear to many of us for a long time, but now there can be no doubt. The imperial West is still firmly committed to the imperial project it launched against the world late in the 15th century. Yes, it has changed and transformed its methods, tactics, strategies, and its apparatus of power and force. The players have changed, some things became more complex, some things less so. And on and on. All of these academic debates are important, but not right now. What is important right now is to say it clearly and loudly – the imperial West is hell-bent on maintaining its supremacy and will kill indiscriminately in order to achieve the only goal it has ever had, the only value it has ever stood for, power and wealth.

The same imperial project that brutalised millions of Black Africans, committed genocide against millions of Indigenous peoples across the Americas, in Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere, colonised Asia and Africa through unfathomable brutality and force, destroyed countless societies full of complexity and beauty, massacred civilians in its imperial wars in places like Vietnam and Iraq, dropped atomic bombs on Japanese civilians, created a neocolonial economic infrastructure that is continuously robbing the majority of the world’s population blind, and I can go on and on, but this project is ongoing and nowhere at this moment is this more visible than in Palestine.

M Muhannad Ayyas. Professor of Sociology at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Canada.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/2/a-genocide-is-under-way-in-palestine

 

 

[Bob Long]

13 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

No one does

 

 

 

 

I see asshat cops here. Not sure I see support for terror. 

 

[Canuckle]

10 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

no it isn't. You're disrespecting cultures that have actually gone through that. Go look at the Palestinian population numbers and try this again.

 

If the Israeli government was actually interested in something like this, there wouldn't be a West Bank. 

 

Wrong again, Bobby

 

It's genocide by any other name.

[Sharpshooter]

12 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

@Sharpshooter 

Having an opinion against the Israeli government is fine, to a degree. 
 

That same statement against Jewish or Israeli people as a collective, wouldn’t have been fine. 

 

 

 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

My pseudo-Marxist views? Lol

 

Coming from a fascist enabler like yourself that's pretty fucking funny dude. Lol.

 

Deflect all you want. Dismiss all you want.

 

The fact is Israel is commiting genocide on Palestinians right now.

A genocide is under way in Palestine

And the imperial West is an active participant.

It is now clear that Israel is engaging in a genocide of the Palestinian people. As reported by Al Jazeera, the Israeli state has “loosened” its military rules of engagement, essentially giving its soldiers the green light to kill anyone they encounter inside the Gaza Strip as part of their ground operations. Israeli politicians and soldiers are talking openly about turning Gaza into dust, eliminating Palestinians, and imagining Israeli settlers living on land that used to be called Gaza. Palestinians are being deliberately deprived of all the basic necessities for life, including food, water, shelter and medical care. Bombs from the air are indiscriminately killing and maiming Palestinians. Palestinians are being encouraged to leave their lands and homes in northern Gaza and head towards the south – Israel clearly wants to colonise northern Gaza and turn it into a security or military zone, permanently expelling the Palestinians who currently live there.

Scholars of genocide have always argued that such mass atrocities are rarely the product of an “evil leader” or “a small extremist political class”. The terrifying reality of genocide is that it happens with mass support, which either comes in the form of active participation (direct and indirect), or complicity through silence.

I am not sure that we have ever seen a case of genocide being supported by this many actors, openly and actively. The majority of institutions in North America, Western Europe and elsewhere are either actively participating in this genocide, or completely silent and are thus complicit.

For genocide to happen, two critical elements are needed: the infrastructural and material capabilities to commit the genocide and the ability to conceal the genocide by calling it something other than what it is. The West is participating in both of these critical elements.

In terms of material capabilities, the United States empire has sent, not one, but two aircraft carriers to the region, and has made it abundantly clear in word and deed that if any state or group attempts to enter the picture and aid Palestinians in their desperate attempt to survive Israel’s genocidal operation, that the US will intervene with its full force. The United Kingdom has also sent naval ships to support this Western imperial threat to the people of the region. The US is sending military equipment and weaponry to Israel, refusing to call for a ceasefire or de-escalation. Corporations and economic institutions are providing financial support to Israel all in the name of supporting Israeli victims, as well as reportedly offering financial incentives to Egypt, attempting to entice it to host the Palestinian refugees who will not be allowed to re-enter the Gaza Strip. Years of US and Western aid and support to Israel have allowed Israel to develop the infrastructural capabilities to carry out a genocide.

In terms of concealment, political, media, social and cultural institutions are fully mobilised in the West to hide and conceal this act of genocide, presenting it as a righteous violence of a victimised Jewish people everywhere in the world. Those expressing support for Palestine in the West are being threatened with job loss (and are actually losing their jobs), possible criminal charges and bans, and other punitive measures and harassment campaigns. The media is continuously and consistently sending the outrageous message that Hamas is the one responsible for the loss of Palestinian civil life in the Gaza Strip, attempting to wash their hands clean of the genocide. The Israeli operation is being framed as a mission to “eliminate Hamas” as opposed to what it really is: a genocide of the Palestinian people and their erasure from the map. The few voices that are questioning these narratives are being marginalised, silenced and de-platformed.

In short, all of the establishment institutions in the West are mobilised, fully and coherently, at this moment in enabling the genocide of Palestinians, all under the guise of protecting “civilisation” from “barbarism”.

As I write this, I am dreading what’s to come. The suffering that Palestinians have endured so far is already unfathomable and very difficult to register in words. And what is coming is going to be even worse.

In moments like this, everything becomes clear. It was clear to many of us for a long time, but now there can be no doubt. The imperial West is still firmly committed to the imperial project it launched against the world late in the 15th century. Yes, it has changed and transformed its methods, tactics, strategies, and its apparatus of power and force. The players have changed, some things became more complex, some things less so. And on and on. All of these academic debates are important, but not right now. What is important right now is to say it clearly and loudly – the imperial West is hell-bent on maintaining its supremacy and will kill indiscriminately in order to achieve the only goal it has ever had, the only value it has ever stood for, power and wealth.

The same imperial project that brutalised millions of Black Africans, committed genocide against millions of Indigenous peoples across the Americas, in Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere, colonised Asia and Africa through unfathomable brutality and force, destroyed countless societies full of complexity and beauty, massacred civilians in its imperial wars in places like Vietnam and Iraq, dropped atomic bombs on Japanese civilians, created a neocolonial economic infrastructure that is continuously robbing the majority of the world’s population blind, and I can go on and on, but this project is ongoing and nowhere at this moment is this more visible than in Palestine.

M Muhannad Ayyas. Professor of Sociology at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Canada.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/2/a-genocide-is-under-way-in-palestine

 

 

 

We have a term for this on the prairies, a lot of feather and not much chicken.

 

Show the the actual facts, not the hyperbole. 

 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

Wrong again, Bobby

 

It's genocide by any other name.

 

yes, that name is war. You can't support the term you're using with actual statistics, so you resort to hyperbole and pseudo-marxists Ideas, which is your right of course. Its a democratic right in fact. Hmm... do Palestinians in Gaza have democratic rights? who took those away again?

 

[Warhippy]

13 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

 

Unacceptable.

 

Exchanging leaders from a combat zone for hostages is something but they'll literally just turn around and do it again.

 

What happened to no red line and acceptable casualties?

 

If these leaders are allowed to go free this will just happen again in 2-5 years time and will result in another 5k dead palestinians and homes flattened.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Warhippy

[Warhippy]

8 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

I see asshat cops here. Not sure I see support for terror. 

 

Not saying anything about terror.  I am agreeing with you.

 

The video shows people are willing to disagree with their government nothing more.

[bolt]