Hamas attacking Israel

[Bure_Pavel]

47 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Exactly.

 

I am pro-jewish, and anti-state through and through. We're talking about the maltreatment of entire populations and state mandate justifying the behavior.

 

Nobody is advocating violence against Jewish people... but there have been  people in here advocating violence against Palestinians going as far to call them "barbarians." Reading some pretty abhorrent shit by a few people in here.

I think its more Hamas that people are advocating violence against the Palestinians are just caught in the middle of it. The terrorist organization was elected into power by Palestinians residing in Gaza and now are being used a human shield in a extremely densely populated area with no escape. Israel is using using its best course of action in Gaza by attacking via airstrikes where they have the biggest tactical advantage over Hamas, the ground attacks are easier to avoid collateral but much more complicated due to the vast tunnels systems in the area. The Hamas attack was considered a declaration of war and the only way I see this ending is if the currently population overthrows Hamas or Israel forces them into submission unfortunately.    

[bolt]

12 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Quite the pair you two are. Other times in history you'd have been advocating the genocide of First Nations people. Hell even supporting China in the ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs right now. Incredible.

 

And yes, you've both been reading the wrong books and listening to the wrong people. It's on full display.

 

Israel is a terrorist state and shouldn't exist.

 

Fuck Israel.

 

And Fuck Zionism.

 

Wow, this is a post full of hatred.  You're basically calling for a genocide of your own.

Edited November 2, 2023 by bolt

[Canuckle]

3 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

yes, that name is war. You can't support the term you're using with actual statistics, so you resort to hyperbole and pseudo-marxists Ideas, which is your right of course. Its a democratic right in fact. Hmm... do Palestinians in Gaza have democratic rights? who took those away again?

 

 

 

I like how you failed to address any of talking points in the article I posted (granted, kinda your M.O. given what I've seen in our interactions in the past.) Deflect deflect deflect! All just eeeevilllll mmmeeeeerxissst hypeerrbollleeee eh. Ahahahaha

 

Nope.

A genocide is under way in Palestine

And the imperial West is an active participant.

 

It is now clear that Israel is engaging in a genocide of the Palestinian people. As reported by Al Jazeera, the Israeli state has “loosened” its military rules of engagement, essentially giving its soldiers the green light to kill anyone they encounter inside the Gaza Strip as part of their ground operations. Israeli politicians and soldiers are talking openly about turning Gaza into dust, eliminating Palestinians, and imagining Israeli settlers living on land that used to be called Gaza.

 

Palestinians are being deliberately deprived of all the basic necessities for life, including food, water, shelter and medical care. Bombs from the air are indiscriminately killing and maiming Palestinians. Palestinians are being encouraged to leave their lands and homes in northern Gaza and head towards the south – Israel clearly wants to colonise northern Gaza and turn it into a security or military zone, permanently expelling the Palestinians who currently live there.

 

Scholars of genocide have always argued that such mass atrocities are rarely the product of an “evil leader” or “a small extremist political class”. The terrifying reality of genocide is that it happens with mass support, which either comes in the form of active participation (direct and indirect), or complicity through silence.

 

I am not sure that we have ever seen a case of genocide being supported by this many actors, openly and actively. The majority of institutions in North America, Western Europe and elsewhere are either actively participating in this genocide, or completely silent and are thus complicit.

 

For genocide to happen, two critical elements are needed: the infrastructural and material capabilities to commit the genocide and the ability to conceal the genocide by calling it something other than what it is. The West is participating in both of these critical elements.

 

In terms of material capabilities, the United States empire has sent, not one, but two aircraft carriers to the region, and has made it abundantly clear in word and deed that if any state or group attempts to enter the picture and aid Palestinians in their desperate attempt to survive Israel’s genocidal operation, that the US will intervene with its full force. The United Kingdom has also sent naval ships to support this Western imperial threat to the people of the region. The US is sending military equipment and weaponry to Israel, refusing to call for a ceasefire or de-escalation.

Corporations and economic institutions are providing financial support to Israel all in the name of supporting Israeli victims, as well as reportedly offering financial incentives to Egypt, attempting to entice it to host the Palestinian refugees who will not be allowed to re-enter the Gaza Strip. Years of US and Western aid and support to Israel have allowed Israel to develop the infrastructural capabilities to carry out a genocide.

 

In terms of concealment, political, media, social and cultural institutions are fully mobilised in the West to hide and conceal this act of genocide, presenting it as a righteous violence of a victimised Jewish people everywhere in the world. Those expressing support for Palestine in the West are being threatened with job loss (and are actually losing their jobs), possible criminal charges and bans, and other punitive measures and harassment campaigns. The media is continuously and consistently sending the outrageous message that Hamas is the one responsible for the loss of Palestinian civil life in the Gaza Strip, attempting to wash their hands clean of the genocide. The Israeli operation is being framed as a mission to “eliminate Hamas” as opposed to what it really is: a genocide of the Palestinian people and their erasure from the map. The few voices that are questioning these narratives are being marginalised, silenced and de-platformed.

 

In short, all of the establishment institutions in the West are mobilised, fully and coherently, at this moment in enabling the genocide of Palestinians, all under the guise of protecting “civilisation” from “barbarism”.

As I write this, I am dreading what’s to come. The suffering that Palestinians have endured so far is already unfathomable and very difficult to register in words. And what is coming is going to be even worse.

 

In moments like this, everything becomes clear. It was clear to many of us for a long time, but now there can be no doubt. The imperial West is still firmly committed to the imperial project it launched against the world late in the 15th century. Yes, it has changed and transformed its methods, tactics, strategies, and its apparatus of power and force. The players have changed, some things became more complex, some things less so. And on and on. All of these academic debates are important, but not right now. What is important right now is to say it clearly and loudly – the imperial West is hell-bent on maintaining its supremacy and will kill indiscriminately in order to achieve the only goal it has ever had, the only value it has ever stood for, power and wealth.

 

The same imperial project that brutalised millions of Black Africans, committed genocide against millions of Indigenous peoples across the Americas, in Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere, colonised Asia and Africa through unfathomable brutality and force, destroyed countless societies full of complexity and beauty, massacred civilians in its imperial wars in places like Vietnam and Iraq, dropped atomic bombs on Japanese civilians, created a neocolonial economic infrastructure that is continuously robbing the majority of the world’s population blind, and I can go on and on, but this project is ongoing and nowhere at this moment is this more visible than in Palestine.

 

M Muhannad Ayyas. Professor of Sociology at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Canada.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/2/a-genocide-is-under-way-in-palestine

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Canuckle

[Satchmo]

18 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Quite the pair you two are. Other times in history you'd have been advocating the genocide of First Nations people. Hell even supporting China in the ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs right now. Incredible.

 

And yes, you've both been reading the wrong books and listening to the wrong people. It's on full display.

 

Israel is a terrorist state and shouldn't exist.

 

Fuck Israel.

 

And Fuck Zionism.

 

Don't presume to know what I believe or do not believe regarding the current horrors in Gaza.

 

I just found your statement outrageous enough to chirp you on it. 

 

Edit & BTW - why does it happen so often that when I disagree with you your first recourse is to use the word fuck a lot?

Edited November 2, 2023 by Satchmo

[bolt]

3 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

 

I like how you failed to address any of talking points in the article I posted (granted, kinda your M.O. given what I've seen in our interactions in the past.) Deflect deflect deflect! All just eeeevilllll mmmeeeeerxissst hypeerrbollleeee eh. Ahahahaha

 

Nope.

A genocide is under way in Palestine

And the imperial West is an active participant.

 

It is now clear that Israel is engaging in a genocide of the Palestinian people. As reported by Al Jazeera, the Israeli state has “loosened” its military rules of engagement, essentially giving its soldiers the green light to kill anyone they encounter inside the Gaza Strip as part of their ground operations. Israeli politicians and soldiers are talking openly about turning Gaza into dust, eliminating Palestinians, and imagining Israeli settlers living on land that used to be called Gaza.

 

Palestinians are being deliberately deprived of all the basic necessities for life, including food, water, shelter and medical care. Bombs from the air are indiscriminately killing and maiming Palestinians. Palestinians are being encouraged to leave their lands and homes in northern Gaza and head towards the south – Israel clearly wants to colonise northern Gaza and turn it into a security or military zone, permanently expelling the Palestinians who currently live there.

 

Scholars of genocide have always argued that such mass atrocities are rarely the product of an “evil leader” or “a small extremist political class”. The terrifying reality of genocide is that it happens with mass support, which either comes in the form of active participation (direct and indirect), or complicity through silence.

 

I am not sure that we have ever seen a case of genocide being supported by this many actors, openly and actively. The majority of institutions in North America, Western Europe and elsewhere are either actively participating in this genocide, or completely silent and are thus complicit.

 

For genocide to happen, two critical elements are needed: the infrastructural and material capabilities to commit the genocide and the ability to conceal the genocide by calling it something other than what it is. The West is participating in both of these critical elements.

 

In terms of material capabilities, the United States empire has sent, not one, but two aircraft carriers to the region, and has made it abundantly clear in word and deed that if any state or group attempts to enter the picture and aid Palestinians in their desperate attempt to survive Israel’s genocidal operation, that the US will intervene with its full force. The United Kingdom has also sent naval ships to support this Western imperial threat to the people of the region. The US is sending military equipment and weaponry to Israel, refusing to call for a ceasefire or de-escalation.

Corporations and economic institutions are providing financial support to Israel all in the name of supporting Israeli victims, as well as reportedly offering financial incentives to Egypt, attempting to entice it to host the Palestinian refugees who will not be allowed to re-enter the Gaza Strip. Years of US and Western aid and support to Israel have allowed Israel to develop the infrastructural capabilities to carry out a genocide.

 

In terms of concealment, political, media, social and cultural institutions are fully mobilised in the West to hide and conceal this act of genocide, presenting it as a righteous violence of a victimised Jewish people everywhere in the world. Those expressing support for Palestine in the West are being threatened with job loss (and are actually losing their jobs), possible criminal charges and bans, and other punitive measures and harassment campaigns. The media is continuously and consistently sending the outrageous message that Hamas is the one responsible for the loss of Palestinian civil life in the Gaza Strip, attempting to wash their hands clean of the genocide. The Israeli operation is being framed as a mission to “eliminate Hamas” as opposed to what it really is: a genocide of the Palestinian people and their erasure from the map. The few voices that are questioning these narratives are being marginalised, silenced and de-platformed.

 

In short, all of the establishment institutions in the West are mobilised, fully and coherently, at this moment in enabling the genocide of Palestinians, all under the guise of protecting “civilisation” from “barbarism”.

As I write this, I am dreading what’s to come. The suffering that Palestinians have endured so far is already unfathomable and very difficult to register in words. And what is coming is going to be even worse.

 

In moments like this, everything becomes clear. It was clear to many of us for a long time, but now there can be no doubt. The imperial West is still firmly committed to the imperial project it launched against the world late in the 15th century. Yes, it has changed and transformed its methods, tactics, strategies, and its apparatus of power and force. The players have changed, some things became more complex, some things less so. And on and on. All of these academic debates are important, but not right now. What is important right now is to say it clearly and loudly – the imperial West is hell-bent on maintaining its supremacy and will kill indiscriminately in order to achieve the only goal it has ever had, the only value it has ever stood for, power and wealth.

The same imperial project that brutalised millions of Black Africans, committed genocide against millions of Indigenous peoples across the Americas, in Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere, colonised Asia and Africa through unfathomable brutality and force, destroyed countless societies full of complexity and beauty, massacred civilians in its imperial wars in places like Vietnam and Iraq, dropped atomic bombs on Japanese civilians, created a neocolonial economic infrastructure that is continuously robbing the majority of the world’s population blind, and I can go on and on, but this project is ongoing and nowhere at this moment is this more visible than in Palestine.

 

M Muhannad Ayyas. Professor of Sociology at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Canada.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/2/a-genocide-is-under-way-in-palestine

 

 

If Israel wanted to have a genocide, Gaza would be flattened by now.  

[Canuckle]

3 minutes ago, bolt said:

Wow, this is a post full of hatred.  You're basically calling for a genocide of your own.

 

The fuck? Absolutely not.

 

And the only way you can come to that conclusion is if you change the definition of "genocide" entirely.

 

I'm anti-state, and especially anti-terrorist state when it comes to places like Israel, the US, England, China, Canada or any other.

[Super19]

6 minutes ago, bolt said:

If Israel wanted to have a genocide, Gaza would be flattened by now.  

Have you seen Gaza lately? 

[Canuckle]

10 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Don't presume to know what I believe or do not believe regarding the current horrors in Gaza.

 

I just found your statement outrageous enough to chirp you on it.

 

Oh, I've seen enough of your comments to know your perspective on the genocide of the Palestinian people.

 

And yes. I think there's more than enough evidence in this thread to support the claim you've been listening to the wrong people and watching the wrong things. For if you weren't, you wouldn't be saying half the shit you are. As I repeat the words of Malcolm X yet again,

 

"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing."

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Canuckle

[bolt]

8 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Have you seen Gaza lately? 

7,700 (many of them Hamas terrorists) dead out of 2,400,000.  Israel has the means to completely destroy them but they haven't.  

Edited November 2, 2023 by bolt

[StrayDog]

23 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Israel is a terrorist state and shouldn't exist.

 

Fuck Israel.

 

And Fuck Zionism.

 

You are calling for the destruction of an entire nation (and, presumably, its people) in the same breath that you are claiming people are calling for the destruction of Palestine (and it's people).

And why do I never see you post "Fuck Hamas"?

[Satchmo]

50 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

1) Oh, I've seen enough of your comments to know your perspective on the genocide of the Palestinian people.

 

2) And yes. I think there's more than enough evidence in this thread to support the claim you've been listening to the wrong people and watching the wrong things. For if you weren't, you wouldn't be saying half the shit you are. As I repeat the words of Malcolm X yet again,

 

3) "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing."

 

1) - Can you please point them out to me?  I'm not aware of them.

 

2) My whole point is that while you may think my library is faulty you should accept the fact that I and others may disagree and question yours.   I would not have even mentioned that if you had not sanctimoniously accused us all of reading/watching/thinking all the wrong things.

 

3) Catchy, glib, but not necessarily true.

 

Edit - It just struck me there is a pattern emerging.  You respond to something by telling me or someone/something else to fuck off, and I respond with a post containing the word please.   Geopolitics aside, whose mom would be the most proud?

Edited November 2, 2023 by Satchmo

[Warhippy]

37 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

israel is a terrorist state and shouldn't exist.

Respectfully.  Lemkin defines genocide as including the destruction of a nation and not just the forcible murder or sterilization of a people or culture.

 

By stating Israel should not exist or suggesting it be removed you also are promoting or suggesting genocide of a sort.  Whether it is semantics or not is immaterial.

 

That is an entirely separate argument regarding the creation and existence of Israel in its current form but suggesting they do not deserve to or should not exist is along the same lines as the suggestion of validation or justification for murdering Palestinian children  because they are merely collateral damage.

[moosehead]

2 hours ago, bolt said:

Reported by Hamas as they count their human shield deaths?  There should be less children deaths but Hamas use their shields. Do you believe they fight in honor?

 

There is no honor is fighting,  war, invading, oppression, bombing civilians, murdering civilians,  ethnic cleansing , Apartheid, occupation, terrorism.

 

Quit blaming one side in a conflict that has 2 parties equally to blame - both committing daily atrocities on each other.

The simplistic approach of blaming only one side is at the route of this conflict.  Time to evolve. 

[RomanPer]

17 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

You are calling for the destruction of an entire nation (and, presumably, its people) in the same breath that you are claiming people are calling for the destruction of Palestine (and it's people).

And why do I never see you post "Fuck Hamas"?

 

I wonder how he would react if someone posted "Gaza is a terrorist entity and shouldn't exist. Fuck Gaza. Fuck Islam". Sounds pretty parallel to his point of view. Disclaimer - what I wrote above is NOT my point of view. Just trying to make a point here.

[moosehead]

35 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

 

The same imperial project that brutalised millions of Black Africans, committed genocide against millions of Indigenous peoples across the Americas, in Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere, colonised Asia and Africa through unfathomable brutality and force, destroyed countless societies full of complexity and beauty, massacred civilians in its imperial wars in places like Vietnam and Iraq, dropped atomic bombs on Japanese civilians, created a neocolonial economic infrastructure that is continuously robbing the majority of the world’s population blind, and I can go on and on, but this project is ongoing and nowhere at this moment is this more visible than in Palestine.

 

M Muhannad Ayyas. Professor of Sociology at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Canada.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/2/a-genocide-is-under-way-in-palestine

 

 

 

I think that last paragraph is very powerful and sadly very accurate.....

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

There is no statement of justification there.  Stop getting the parents involved because you don't like the opinion of someone.  If you don't like it ignore it.  Isn't that what you keep saying or suggesting yourself?  Isn't that what the parents are suggesting too?  This is a heavily moderated thread and anything that goes against the rules will be outted and dealt with.

 

tattling isn't cool.

 

I think this is worth emphasizing. Sharpshooter likely reads every single post, we've also seen Ribs post in this thread, folks should focus on discussing and leave moderating to the mods. Block function is also a thing, even if it's not perfect. 

 

I chime in here and there but I mostly just lurk, there are many views, stances, biases, and so on in this thread and none of us are devoid of these things, which is healthy and has stopped it from turning into an echo chamber. 

 

Moving on though.

 

Folks following this conflict and engaging in this thread should be mindful of how doing so affects them. Compassion fatigue is a thing. https://www.ctvnews.ca/lifestyle/what-to-know-about-compassion-fatigue-and-how-to-beat-it-according-to-experts-1.6624692

 

Frequently consuming war and conflict related media can affect people, in the age of modern social media it's easy to be bombarded with it.

 

https://time.com/6155630/ukraine-war-social-media-mental-health/

 

I am intimately familiar with trauma, you don't have to be experience something firsthand for it to affect you. 

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/lifting-the-veil-trauma/202001/watching-the-news-can-be-traumatizing#:~:text=This concept is called vicarious,consequences on our mental health.

 

https://www.banyanmentalhealth.com/2022/03/02/secondary-trauma-symptoms/#:~:text=With that said%2C common secondary,of the traumatic event%2Fstory

 

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2022/11/strain-media-overload

[Super19]

22 minutes ago, bolt said:

7,700 (many of them Hamas terrorists) dead out of 2,400,000.  Israel has the means to completely destroy them but they haven't.  

The latest numbers I saw today are nearly 12k dead in Gaza, many of them women and children.

 

Not to mention that Gaza is being reduced to ash and rabble with more destruction on the way in the form of more bombs signed off by anentanyahu and the effects of the neighbourhoods in ruins (lack of care, food, water, diseases, will just cause even more destruction)

[moosehead]

46 minutes ago, bolt said:

If Israel wanted to have a genocide, Gaza would be flattened by now.  

 

Israel is well on its way to flattening Gaza.

The only thing slowing Israel down is world opinion that right now is comparing Israel to  Iran / North Korea / China and Russia  in terms of atrocities / oppression / genocide  they commit. 

 

Hopefully IOC will announce a ban of Israel for Summer olympics.... that would be fitting.  Countries that practice Apartheid should not be included in the world community until they become nations that respect all the minorities. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by moosehead

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Gaza Health Ministry is Hamas organization. All the other "independent" organizations on the ground (like Amnesty International, for example) - do you really think they have independent employees from other countries collecting this data? They hire locals most of the time and they can hardly be called "independent". We clearly saw this situation unfolding with Amnesty International during the war in Ukraine.

Notably; aid shipments were first overrun and then stolen by military age men in the Gaza, under the leadership of Hamas. One first must have knowledge of where the shipments were going to be stored, and then one must have access to the location and thirdly a Muslim in particular must have assurances that stealing it would not harm their immortal soul. Generally, that would take the blessing of an Imam or governing official.  Most of the UN and NGO groups operating in Gaza are made up of locals, most of those locals are controlled by their government; Hamas. I am not excusing anything, but hoping to clarify the point with a second account. I am unsure of anyone else in the forums who has been involved with one of the forces, or UN or an NGO in the region, but the two of us who have some 'on the ground experience' there are even from two different organizations and we tend to agree with this synopsis. There is a reason the hospital built on top of Hamas operations center tunnel complex has 13 thousand 'refugees' sheltering there, despite many and repeated appeals of the IDF for those sheltering in place to leave. The reason to me, is crystal clear: the folks operating the hospital are working to keep them there, instead of working to move them out of harms way. The vast majority of folks there are simply human shields, yet again, and the hospital workers are not trying to move them to the south, they are keeping them right there in harms way. That speaks volumes to me about who makes up the majority of the volunteers and staff working at the hospital. 

 

Just my two cents. The job of destroying Hamas ability to stay in power and wage war is an extremely tough one, and one that should be done with the least harm to civilians, that goes without saying, but at this point, as of Oct 7th, it is a job that must be done. 

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

Notably; aid shipments were first overrun and then stolen by military age men in the Gaza, under the leadership of Hamas. One first must have knowledge of where the shipments were going to be stored, and then one must have access to the location and thirdly a Muslim in particular must have assurances that stealing it would not harm their immortal soul. Generally, that would take the blessing of an Imam or governing official.  Most of the UN and NGO groups operating in Gaza are made up of locals, most of those locals are controlled by their government; Hamas. I am not excusing anything, but hoping to clarify the point with a second account. I am unsure of anyone else in the forums who has been involved with one of the forces, or UN or an NGO in the region, but the two of us who have some 'on the ground experience' there are even from two different organizations and we tend to agree with this synopsis. There is a reason the hospital built on top of Hamas operations center tunnel complex has 13 thousand 'refugees' sheltering there, despite many and repeated appeals of the IDF for those sheltering in place to leave. The reason to me, is crystal clear: the folks operating the hospital are working to keep them there, instead of working to move them out of harms way. The vast majority of folks there are simply human shields, yet again, and the hospital workers are not trying to move them to the south, they are keeping them right there in harms way. That speaks volumes to me about who makes up the majority of the volunteers and staff working at the hospital. 

 

Just my two cents. The job of destroying Hamas ability to stay in power and wage war is an extremely tough one, and one that should be done with the least harm to civilians, that goes without saying, but at this point, as of Oct 7th, it is a job that must be done. 

The only alternative to these strikes is a ground invasion and occupation in order to eradicate Hamas.  The people complaining loudest about the strikes wouldn't like that either.  Hamas doesn't have a right to exist and every solution is going to have some drawbacks.

[Taxi]

2 hours ago, Canuckle said:

Quite the pair you two are. Other times in history you'd have been advocating the genocide of First Nations people. Hell even supporting China in the ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs right now. Incredible.

 

And yes, you've both been reading the wrong books and listening to the wrong people. It's on full display.

 

Israel is a terrorist state and shouldn't exist.

 

Fuck Israel.

 

And Fuck Zionism.

 

Interesting, so you acknowledge that genocide of the First Nations people is worse than what has gone on in Israel thus far (as the genocide you are stating is going on hasn't happened yet anyways). 

 

Does that mean you don't have a right to exist, as a non-indigenous Canadian, on land belonging to indigenous people. Or do you just apply these rules to other people and not yourself? And if so, why those people and not you.

 

BTW, this is just a hypothetical based on your argument. I think both Israel and Canada have a right to exist, mostly because they already do. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Taxi

[Taxi]

1 hour ago, moosehead said:

 

Israel is well on its way to flattening Gaza.

The only thing slowing Israel down is world opinion that right now is comparing Israel to  Iran / North Korea / China and Russia  in terms of atrocities / oppression / genocide  they commit. 

 

Hopefully IOC will announce a ban of Israel for Summer olympics.... that would be fitting.  Countries that practice Apartheid should not be included in the world community until they become nations that respect all the minorities. 

 

Yes, but they asked the people to leave first. If genocide was the goal, why would they give Hamas time to prepare. Why wasn't the invasion on day 1? Why an invasion at all? Why not just kill everyone?

 

Israel is not getting banned from the olympics.

[Canuck Surfer]

16 hours ago, Squirter said:

That’s a national message they have openly voiced. To rid the land of palestiniens. Not just the militants but everyone. Here’s some material to get informed on this particular point you are contesting. 
 

 

 

This is just how people use Bibi's language against him.  A biased press.

 

That said & as stated, I am not supportive AT ALL, of the IDF's tactic of bombing Gaza with heavy hitting bombs.  Was not supportive of Israeli Settlers abusing Palestinians in the West Bank. Tolerated due to Israeli Governments needing the votes when they need to be enfocing a rule of law. Its a lot easier to ask Palestinian leaders & people to look to a peaceful outlook, versus Hamas's militant one, when Israel is no engaged in illegal abuse, even death of Palestinians. Of the IDF themselves being heavy handed also in the West Bank / Occupied territories. I have a slogan that you can use tear gas and rubber bullets against those throwing rocks. Don't like that they have 'chaperoned' as extremists have gone on destructive marches! However?

 

You were asked a question; what can & what should Hamas do to tone down their illegal activity? Oct 7 was far from the first time they have engaged in their own genocidal pogroms. 

 

At what point is there going to be an acknowledgement Hamas is part of the problem? Peace comes when both sides commit to justice.  I see Hamas's language as more predatory than Bibi's. Not that I like his!

[JIAHN]

5 hours ago, Canuckle said:

My pseudo-Marxist views? Lol

 

Coming from a fascist enabler like yourself that's pretty fucking funny dude. Lol.

 

Deflect all you want. Dismiss all you want.

 

The fact is Israel is commiting genocide on Palestinians right now.

A genocide is under way in Palestine

And the imperial West is an active participant.

It is now clear that Israel is engaging in a genocide of the Palestinian people. As reported by Al Jazeera, the Israeli state has “loosened” its military rules of engagement, essentially giving its soldiers the green light to kill anyone they encounter inside the Gaza Strip as part of their ground operations. Israeli politicians and soldiers are talking openly about turning Gaza into dust, eliminating Palestinians, and imagining Israeli settlers living on land that used to be called Gaza. Palestinians are being deliberately deprived of all the basic necessities for life, including food, water, shelter and medical care. Bombs from the air are indiscriminately killing and maiming Palestinians. Palestinians are being encouraged to leave their lands and homes in northern Gaza and head towards the south – Israel clearly wants to colonise northern Gaza and turn it into a security or military zone, permanently expelling the Palestinians who currently live there.

Scholars of genocide have always argued that such mass atrocities are rarely the product of an “evil leader” or “a small extremist political class”. The terrifying reality of genocide is that it happens with mass support, which either comes in the form of active participation (direct and indirect), or complicity through silence.

I am not sure that we have ever seen a case of genocide being supported by this many actors, openly and actively. The majority of institutions in North America, Western Europe and elsewhere are either actively participating in this genocide, or completely silent and are thus complicit.

For genocide to happen, two critical elements are needed: the infrastructural and material capabilities to commit the genocide and the ability to conceal the genocide by calling it something other than what it is. The West is participating in both of these critical elements.

In terms of material capabilities, the United States empire has sent, not one, but two aircraft carriers to the region, and has made it abundantly clear in word and deed that if any state or group attempts to enter the picture and aid Palestinians in their desperate attempt to survive Israel’s genocidal operation, that the US will intervene with its full force. The United Kingdom has also sent naval ships to support this Western imperial threat to the people of the region. The US is sending military equipment and weaponry to Israel, refusing to call for a ceasefire or de-escalation. Corporations and economic institutions are providing financial support to Israel all in the name of supporting Israeli victims, as well as reportedly offering financial incentives to Egypt, attempting to entice it to host the Palestinian refugees who will not be allowed to re-enter the Gaza Strip. Years of US and Western aid and support to Israel have allowed Israel to develop the infrastructural capabilities to carry out a genocide.

In terms of concealment, political, media, social and cultural institutions are fully mobilised in the West to hide and conceal this act of genocide, presenting it as a righteous violence of a victimised Jewish people everywhere in the world. Those expressing support for Palestine in the West are being threatened with job loss (and are actually losing their jobs), possible criminal charges and bans, and other punitive measures and harassment campaigns. The media is continuously and consistently sending the outrageous message that Hamas is the one responsible for the loss of Palestinian civil life in the Gaza Strip, attempting to wash their hands clean of the genocide. The Israeli operation is being framed as a mission to “eliminate Hamas” as opposed to what it really is: a genocide of the Palestinian people and their erasure from the map. The few voices that are questioning these narratives are being marginalised, silenced and de-platformed.

In short, all of the establishment institutions in the West are mobilised, fully and coherently, at this moment in enabling the genocide of Palestinians, all under the guise of protecting “civilisation” from “barbarism”.

As I write this, I am dreading what’s to come. The suffering that Palestinians have endured so far is already unfathomable and very difficult to register in words. And what is coming is going to be even worse.

In moments like this, everything becomes clear. It was clear to many of us for a long time, but now there can be no doubt. The imperial West is still firmly committed to the imperial project it launched against the world late in the 15th century. Yes, it has changed and transformed its methods, tactics, strategies, and its apparatus of power and force. The players have changed, some things became more complex, some things less so. And on and on. All of these academic debates are important, but not right now. What is important right now is to say it clearly and loudly – the imperial West is hell-bent on maintaining its supremacy and will kill indiscriminately in order to achieve the only goal it has ever had, the only value it has ever stood for, power and wealth.

The same imperial project that brutalised millions of Black Africans, committed genocide against millions of Indigenous peoples across the Americas, in Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere, colonised Asia and Africa through unfathomable brutality and force, destroyed countless societies full of complexity and beauty, massacred civilians in its imperial wars in places like Vietnam and Iraq, dropped atomic bombs on Japanese civilians, created a neocolonial economic infrastructure that is continuously robbing the majority of the world’s population blind, and I can go on and on, but this project is ongoing and nowhere at this moment is this more visible than in Palestine.

M Muhannad Ayyas. Professor of Sociology at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Canada.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/2/a-genocide-is-under-way-in-palestine

 

 

 

Quoting an Arab isn't really proving a point!

 

"IF" Hamas would come out of the cities and fight on the battlefield, there would not be bombings inside the cities

 

"IF" you can explain why they hide amongst the civilians after killing and abducting 1400 Israeli's, and it is not be genocide

 

I am sorry, I just do not find your argument validated by Hamas's actions.................

 

And do not get me wrong, I detest Palestinians being killed and injured, but until common Palestinian's hold Hamas accountable

 

How can you ask Israel to stop, as to stop will only encourage Hamas to continue with the exact same game plan, repeatedly

 

and Israeli's will have the exact same thing continually happen to them, on a continuous basis, with no cure for Israel

 

Stopping only stops until Hamas want to do it again, and again, and again.....

 

You guarantee me Hamas will never do it again, and I am sure Israel stops, but until then

 

You are shat out of luck.........

 

I do not think you ever answer that in any of your comments

 

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, Canuckle said:

Dodge and weave all you want. I repeat,

 

The Israeli state is an invading force

You can repeat as many times as you like.

 

In 1967 and 2006 Palestinians were offered a two state solution. 

 

Bombs have been launched in to Israel from Gaza, even though they were seeded this territory.  Israel offered to recognize it, more territories that are contested. The first bomb thrown in 2006 was by Hamas. The first sword drawn currently was Oct 7.  Israel is going to respond.  I don't like how they have done it.  

 

Hamas is among a group of Islamic terrorists trying to exert power by force; is the group primarily responsible for initiating attacks.  Israel's view is responsive to those attacks. Defensive in that Hamas has committed to continuing atrocities, so Israel feels they have to hunt them. Reduce them to ineffectiveness.    

 

Israel also has a history of being conciliatory, they returned Muslim Egypts Sinai peninsula. After conquering it for its own security. Had spoke peace with the Palestinian Authority, and the PLO.  Are speaking peace with the Saudi's. 

 

Hamas wiped out these factions politically, and militantly within Gaza so they could go on their own purge of Israelis. Have made no indication they want peace for their people, aside from wiping out Israel all together. Hamas is associated with all or most of the Islamic forms of resistance; including against other Muslim administrations. Have killed more Muslims than Jews. Then hide under civilian populations. Internal Genocide?

 

I hate what Israel is doing.  Hamas is the true Genocidal contingent here.  No indication they have the best interests of their people at heart.