Hamas attacking Israel

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

So the Hamas actual doctrine is garbage and not to be believed as their way of living and their goals? 
Those are very nasty beliefs they have. 
Or is this not what they believe and desire? 

 

Hamas are psychopaths and extremely dangerous as a  terrorist group. 

[bolt]

3 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

There is no place in this world for any discrimination.   Thats what we are all asking for.   Freedom and peace for Palestinians.  Equality - end of discrimination and discriminary Israeli government policies. 

Freedom and peace for Palestine is only possible without Hamas.  You always point at Israelis instead of the barbaric Hamas terrorists who are the main culprits of Gazan poverty and misery. 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by bolt

[Satchmo]

7 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Garbage.  Anti Israeli protestors are also typically anti Hamas.

 

Move on please.   Those days of putting people in small boxes are over....    People are now informed. 

Thanks for the edit.   I saw the original, began a nastygram post, asked myself if it would really help, and deleted it before posting.

 

May cooler heads prevail.  Here and in Gaza.

[Alflives]

Just now, moosehead said:

 

Hamas are psychopaths and extremely dangerous as a  terrorist group. 

Aren’t they the government too? 

[bolt]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

 

Hamas are psychopaths and extremely dangerous as a  terrorist group. 

So how do you free Palestine with those psychopaths running the show?

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Israel or their leaders, like Bibi, are wanting this? 

 

Yes Israel government officials and IDF.   Many jewish in NA and in Israel are totally against this genocide. 

[bishopshodan]

They're saying ten's of thousands protesting in DC.

 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-thousands-march-in-washington-dc-to-support-palestinians-gaza-2023-11

 

[moosehead]

1 minute ago, Satchmo said:

Thanks for the edit.   I saw the original, began a nastygram post, asked myself if it would really help, and deleted it before posting.

 

May cooler heads prevail.  Here and in Gaza.

 

Yes, we are all in discussion with each other.  I truly think everyone here wants Peace in the region.

We just disagree on the path forwards to achieve this peace.    We do need to be kind to each other here in this crazy time in our world. 

[Canuck Surfer]

The current environment suggests, according to this polling done by 'political scientists' in Palestine the week before Oct 7th;

 

Aprox. 24% of Ghazan support is for Hamas.

About 34% for Fatah, opposition.

Only 5% are not experiencing food shortage pre invasion.

 

About the video. The economy has shrunk about 50% relative to the 'more free' West Bank, a statistical comment, not poll item. There is general commentary on life in Gaza, simplified internal politics. Make some notes about the situation currently & in which Hamas won power in 2006.  Its not inflammatory, nor fixated on fault so while the conclusions are even juvenile as far as think tank opinion? Its reasonable to believe they were asking the right questions.  I believe the sample size is waaaay too small to be conclusive.  They suggest their poll notes are accurate within 5%.

 

1/3rd again blame Hamas.

1/4 blame Sanctions.

35% blame Corruption.

 

 

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, bolt said:

So how do you free Palestine with those psychopaths running the show?

 

No idea but i think it may take USA and middle east countries  money /support / peacekeepers.  May take decades. 

 

[moosehead]

12 minutes ago, bolt said:

Freedom and peace for Palestine is only possible without Hamas.  You always point at Israelis instead of the barbaric Hamas terrorists who are the main culprits of Gazan poverty and misery. 

 

Muslim Brotherhood /  Islamist Resistance Movement. / Hamas

 

Been around over a. VERY LONG TIME ..   they are not going anywhere.

 

World will have to establish peace in this region that includes all the players in region..... or at least with moderates that can limit the power/ activities of Hamas....

 

 

Hamas, an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya (“Islamic Resistance Movement”), was founded by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, a Palestinian cleric who became an activist in local branches of the Muslim Brotherhood after dedicating his early life to Islamic scholarship in Cairo. Beginning in the late 1960s, Yassin preached and performed charitable work in the West Bank and Gaza, both of which Israel occupied following the 1967 Six-Day War.

 

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas

Edited November 4, 2023 by moosehead

[Super19]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

Exactly. 50 bodies in the rubble of what used to be Hamas tunnel. 8 times less than 400 reported.

Here's the wishy washy:

Your headline reads: Israel targets a Hamas official and Hamas tunnel, in the location of a Gaza refugee camp. 6 airstrikes launched. 50 dead, mostly men of military age. 

 

Easy, simple, nothing more to see hear move along folks please and thankyou.

 

 

But there's a lot to dissect here. A refugee camp was bombed - heavily.  six, 2,000lb bombs in fact. Too much destruction happened. And guaranteed more than 5o  young males lives were destroyed from this.

 

[Riddikulus]

6 minutes ago, bolt said:

So how do you free Palestine with those psychopaths running the show?

You free Palestine by not having it be in Israel's control. A two state solution with clearly defined borders would mean that the Palestinians would have to take care of the Hamas problem on their own. If they cannot, then that is their problem. Israel is only responsible for defending its borders just like any other country around the world which shares a border with a hostile neighbour. The Western interventionist policies have failed, occupying countries in order to keep the extremists at bay have failed in both Afghanistan and Iraq which are worse after American occupation than they were prior to the invasion.

[StrayDog]

36 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

But we are not going to be able to move forward until we fully sort out the past.

How does sorting out the Irish past resolve the Israeli one? There are similarities, sure, but nothing that would say what worked for one would work for the other.

[StrayDog]

43 minutes ago, moosehead said:

As expected.... thanks

If you want to have a discussion about the Israeli/ Hamas situation then I'll have that discussion with you. But if all you want to argue is "What Ifs" and "Gotcha" then I'm less interested.

[Canuck Surfer]

25 minutes ago, moosehead said:

A 2021 report by the Israel Democracy Institute found significant social and economic gaps between Jewish and Arab citizens, with poverty among Arabs more than three times higher.

 

Arabs are mainly employed in low-income industrial jobs, the report said. They tend to live in overcrowded towns and villages with infrastructure deficiencies and poorer-funded schools.

 

Describe Arab?

 

Israel is a first World Country, well educated, well funded.  The standard of living is going to be higher than most ME countries. Many poorer parts of which are much closer to a traditional life? True democracy is few and far between a 2knd factor.  Which is only to say people who feel oppressed have less opportunity to campaign for improvement. Women's rights, that of minorities ethnic & otherwise have greater disparity to ruling classes. Albeit the rich send their daughters to Princeton & Harvard, work in high level business. This is valid even in wealthier, stable countries in the Middle East. Countries on the edge of first world status like Iran & Turkey.

 

It grows three fold worse in states led by autocrats and militants, destabilized countries.  Corruption means opportunity for your family means joining militant society, at best paying militant society, to survive. Then, if you are not dead, a good fighter, or someone willing to be even more ruthless? Has opportunity to partake in the underground economy. Or bring back spoils of war. 

 

Whomever is in the top gang is the one who's family eats well. Who are not that concerned with the quality of schools. No opportunity to impose a take? Aside from teaching school age children how to arm a Kalashnikov, dig a tunnel? Start the recruitment process early.  Such is life in Gaza.   

 

 

[RomanPer]

14 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Here's the wishy washy:

Your headline reads: Israel targets a Hamas official and Hamas tunnel, in the location of a Gaza refugee camp. 6 airstrikes launched. 50 dead, mostly men of military age. 

 

Easy, simple, nothing more to see hear move along folks please and thankyou.

 

 

But there's a lot to dissect here. A refugee camp was bombed - heavily.  six, 2,000lb bombs in fact. Too much destruction happened. And guaranteed more than 5o  young males lives were destroyed from this.

 

 

I'm not talking about emotions, only strict facts.

 

The initial news after the hospital bombing was "Israel bombed hospital, 500 dead". After a few days - not Israel, self-inflicted, nowhere close to 500 dead, explosion in a parking lot.

 

The initial news after the refugee camp bombing was "400 dead, mainly women and children". Bombing that occurred after weeks of warnings to leave the area due to Hamas tunnels being hidden beneath the civilian buildings. After a few days - only 50 confirmed dead, most fitting profile of Hamas soldiers. Everything else is an assumption, which must be avoided under the circumstances.

[moosehead]

5 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Describe Arab?

 

Israel is a first World Country, well educated, well funded.  The standard of living is going to be higher than most ME countries. Many poorer parts of which are much closer to a traditional life? True democracy is few and far between a 2knd factor.  Which is only to say people who feel oppressed have less opportunity to campaign for improvement. Women's rights, that of minorities ethnic & otherwise have greater disparity to ruling classes. Albeit the rich send their daughters to Princeton & Harvard, work in high level business. This is valid even in wealthier, stable countries in the Middle East. Countries on the edge of first world status like Iran & Turkey.

 

It grows three fold worse in states led by autocrats and militants, destabilized countries.  Corruption means opportunity for your family means joining militant society, at best paying militant society, to survive. Then, if you are not dead, a good fighter, or someone willing to be even more ruthless? Has opportunity to partake in the underground economy. Or bring back spoils of war. 

 

Whomever is in the top gang is the one who's family eats well. Who are not that concerned with the quality of schools. No opportunity to impose a take? Aside from teaching school age children how to arm a Kalashnikov, dig a tunnel? Start the recruitment process early.  Such is life in Gaza.   

 

 

 

However, Amnesty International’s report shows that successive Israeli governments have considered Palestinians a demographic threat, and imposed measures to control and decrease their presence and access to land in Israel and the OPT. These demographic aims are well illustrated by official plans to “Judaize” areas of Israel and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, which continue to put thousands of Palestinians at risk of forcible transfer.

 

Palestinian citizens in Israel currently enjoy greater rights and freedoms than their counterparts in the OPT, while the experience of Palestinians in Gaza is very different to that of those living in the West Bank. Nonetheless, Amnesty International’s research shows that all Palestinians are subject to the same overarching system. Israel’s treatment of Palestinians across all areas is pursuant to the same objective: to privilege Jewish Israelis in distribution of land and resources, and to minimize the Palestinian presence and access to land.

 

mnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/

Edited November 4, 2023 by moosehead

[SilentSam]

 

 

[Satchmo]

16 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

How does sorting out the Irish past resolve the Israeli one? There are similarities, sure, but nothing that would say what worked for one would work for the other.

I think I have to make my attempts at sarcasm a bit more obvious, or use /s more often.  Or be funnier.  I try to be sardonic but only make it to sarcastic.

 

I think you and I are in agreement.  

 

My point was that so much of this thread seems to be arguments over who has done the most wrong over the years.   If we try to sort that out, it's going to take a while because there has been so much damn past and so much damn wrongdoing.   

 

Here's to the future.  I want world peace and a jetpack. (a hydrogen powered one)

[The Arrogant Worms]

What did Hamas think would happen when they attacked Is Israel?

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

What did Hamas think would happen when they attacked Is Israel?

 

that Israel would invade. After that its anyones guess how they strategized it playing out. We'll find out pretty soon just how far Lebanon and Iran governments are willing to go in support of it. 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Bob Long

[moosehead]

1 minute ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

What did Hamas think would happen when they attacked Is Israel?

 

Hamas was hoping for a ground invasion in Gaza to raise their popularity in Gaza and in the whole middle east region.   It is working. 

[Canuck Surfer]

6 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

However, Amnesty International’s report shows that successive Israeli governments have considered Palestinians a demographic threat, and imposed measures to control and decrease their presence and access to land in Israel and the OPT. These demographic aims are well illustrated by official plans to “Judaize” areas of Israel and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, which continue to put thousands of Palestinians at risk of forcible transfer.

 

Palestinian citizens in Israel currently enjoy greater rights and freedoms than their counterparts in the OPT, while the experience of Palestinians in Gaza is very different to that of those living in the West Bank. Nonetheless, Amnesty International’s research shows that all Palestinians are subject to the same overarching system. Israel’s treatment of Palestinians across all areas is pursuant to the same objective: to privilege Jewish Israelis in distribution of land and resources, and to minimize the Palestinian presence and access to land.

 

mnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/

 

I have zero doubt, Israeli policy & activity have negative impact on life quality for Palestinians outside Israel.

 

I also believe they will 'Judaize' or attempt to spread their religion. Probably in ways more destructive than having a Mormon ring your doorbell 1st thing Monday morning?

 

 

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, bishopshodan said:

They're saying ten's of thousands protesting in DC.

 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-thousands-march-in-washington-dc-to-support-palestinians-gaza-2023-11

 

 

 

I find it ironic that people in Iran, Lebaon, Gaza and many other places would never, ever be able to do this in those countries. 

 

So I guess the US is bad, except when it isn't. 

 

It would be great to see this kind of freedom in Gaza. I don't see how stopping the current war helps that become a reality. 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Bob Long