Hamas attacking Israel

[Satchmo]

13 minutes ago, pinguin said:

 

I would like that to be true, because I truly believe that if everyone did know the history well, we'd all have one solution we agree on as the morally correct one:

 

1. Israel continues its democratic and peaceful existence

2. The people who were removed from their homes are allowed to return to those places they were removed from

 

This would resolve the Palestinians grievance, and there would be no more need for anger. 

 

This approach seems to have some good aspects to it.  I'm all for the resolution of grievances, and for peace.   I would certainly need more information about who would be moving and to where.

 

But most importantly, would Hamas agree to this?

 

I'm about to sign out until tomorrow... 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, pinguin said:

 

Because I'm sick of seeing a bunch of people who just discovered this conflict on October 7th say uninformed things, so I feel obligated to try to provide some historical context to the grievances that have brought us here. 

 

The history of the region has been shared in this thread over the last 190 pages.  Most people already know the history...

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, pinguin said:

 

I would like that to be true, because I truly believe that if everyone did know the history well, we'd all have one solution we agree on as the morally correct one:

 

1. Israel continues its democratic and peaceful existence

2. The people who were removed from their homes are allowed to return to those places they were removed from

 

This would resolve the Palestinians grievance, and there would be no more need for anger. 

 

 

There won't be any peace deal until Hamas is destroyed.  They have already declared their intentions.  Also, peace deals have been put in place since 1947 and the Palestinians never agreed to any of them.  Also, when you say the Palestinians who were removed from their homes are allowed to return, in what year are you referring to?  1947, 1967, 2005?

Edited November 5, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Ilunga]

 

We all condemn Hamas and want them to be neutralized as a military and political force

 

As we know for all the bullshit he spouts, Netanyahu doesn't really feel the same as we do 

 

From a speech he gave in 2019 to his Likud party 

 

" In words reported and never denied - anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering and transferring money to Hamas.....this is part of our strategy "

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/03/war-israel-hamas-conflict-peace-extremists

 

 

This article is written by a British Jew 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Freedland

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

10 hours ago, moosehead said:

 

Yes, but getting world support their cause is the first step in that direction.

Getting USA to stop or reduce  support to Isreal is another step for them. 

 

Hamas are evil .   Peace in the region and economic support for Palestinians is the way to eliminate Hamas.

 

I agree with the right to protest. And free speech.  Not to the extent of the US, in Canada its much more limited against prejudice. Which is a hate crime. In both cases against calls to violence.

 

The Swastika represents a step which has not occurred yet by Israel.  Gaza's population has grown almost 6 times since 1948.  For all the crimes Israel has, may have have committed? They have not had a determined plan? To round up the 1st 1000 healthiest men. Take them to a ravine and shoot them, defenseless. Repeat. Then take the next 10,000 women & children in a cattle car to a concentration camp. In 6 years Jewish populations diminished as much as 80%.  I think its fair we look at justice for Palestine.  These two don't equal each other; Swastika does not == Free speech. 

 

This is also why suggestion of Genocide has to be made carefully. Its important to discuss it. But carefully. 

 

Say what you will about Gaza? People are not being shipped there against there will. Taken to gas chambers. I won't draw out the comparison. 

 

While you have spoken out against Hamas, I propose some thought goes in to exactly what is acceptable at protests. World support behind a frenzy of hate filled people wanting to do what A Swastika represents? Is not advancing the chances for peace or justice.  

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, pinguin said:

From 2014 but worth sharing. This is Israeli residents of Sderot watching Gaza being bombarded and cheering it on, like a fireworks show.

 

Sderot also used to be an arab village called Huj. Huj's arab inhabitants were actually very friendly to their Jewish neighbors - they even shielded Haganah fighters from the British army. 

 

The arab inhabitants were violently removed from their homes by the zionist paramilitary forces- some killed, and their homes destroyed. They were sent to Gaza as refugees. 

 

This is a matter of historical fact - acknowledged by the first Prime Minister of Israel - David Ben Gurion who lamented it, but ultimately refused to let them come home. 

 

This is also the story shared by the 700,000 Palestinians who are the grandparents, parents, and residents of 70% of Gaza's population today.

 

If you wish to read about that, here's the link:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-suffering-of-sderot-how-its-true-inhabitants-were-wiped-from-israel-s-maps-and-memories-8348734.html

 

 

 

 

 

This is of course terribly sad.  Sad behaviour.  Sad that the bombardment occurred. 

 

Like watching youth in Sydney Oct 8th rallies claim they were ''elated'' with 'justified death and destruction.'

 

In a better world? A justice + accountability both sides could count on would contribute to peace. 

 

 

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

We all condemn Hamas and want them to be neutralized as a military and political force

 

As we know for all the bullshit he spouts, Netanyahu doesn't really feel the same as we do 

 

From a speech he gave in 2019 to his Likud party 

 

" In words reported and never denied - anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering and transferring money to Hamas.....this is part of our strategy "

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/03/war-israel-hamas-conflict-peace-extremists

 

 

This article is written by a British Jew 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Freedland

 

 

 

Just of note - just because it’s written by a Jew, doesn’t automatically make it correct in relation to Israel. I’m not claiming that Bibi didn’t say these things. But we can’t automatically assume he did only because the author of the article is Jewish. I know some Jews with very warped view of the world and Israel.

[RomanPer]

Just wanted to preempt the outcry about the comment by the Israeli Minister of Heritage Amichai Eliahu about nuking Gaza as an option - as I said before, there are idiots in Israel. He is a clear result of coalition from a proportional vote and the ministry itself is absolutely useless and was formed to give extra ministerial position to the Ben Gvir’s party. There was an immediate huge outcry within Israel about this comment and the idiot has already been suspended and there’s a high chance he’ll be fired.

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, pinguin said:

 

I would like that to be true, because I truly believe that if everyone did know the history well, we'd all have one solution we agree on as the morally correct one:

 

1. Israel continues its democratic and peaceful existence

2. The people who were removed from their homes are allowed to return to those places they were removed from

 

This would resolve the Palestinians grievance, and there would be no more need for anger. 

 

 

I have, here in this thread, called for both acknowledgement and reparations to families of expulsion in 1948. So have others.  I believe in this, even though its largely symbolic. Jewish people were offered historical reparations from Germany for lost property, Gold, Jewelry. Its not everything? It has value. Specifically setting a precedent it cannot happen moving forward. A commitment to law and order!

 

60,000,000 people killed 75,000,000 displaced in World Wars I & II. This does count what happened in-between. More powerful nations claimed spoils. Pogroms, ethnic cleansing, the end of Empire's including the Ottoman empire impacting Palestine, Imperialism including Britain who had taken over Palestine? This was rampant, commonplace. As cultures fell victim, many also grabbed what they could. Behaved equally bloodthirsty. Switched alliances.

 

Tried to survive? 750,000 is incredibly overwhelming & tragic in simple human terms. Its not 1/10th of 1% of those displaced by war in a generation from 1914 to 1948.

 

I don't believe my own family has an opportunity to ask for their farm back in the Carpathian mountains? Which was, at the time, the Austro Hungarian Empire. Which fell to  Russians, Turks, Poles, Russian revolution... Was declared independent, fought over for independence against Poles again, became Russian under Stalin regardless. My grandfather shipped in a cattle car to the Gulags in Siberia at 13. 'Conscripted' and sent to the front at 16 by his captors. Came back 'home' to civil war, never saw his ten siblings or parents again. Did hear one of his sisters may have been in Warsaw? The fight over Palestine was much simpler in comparison to landslide injustice around the world.

 

While I believe in reparations, I don't think you can re-write borders from 75 years ago? I would boot 'recent' settlers have have become territorial, militant in occupied territories. I don't know what date to pick; 1967? I honestly don't know, its complex. From 1948 nearly every Arabic power surrounding 'Israel' tried to conquer it immediately. It's not likely most Palestinian 'brothers' would have been allowed homesteading anyway.  Similar wars with Israel occurred in the 60's and 70's. Israel took over the Sinai peninsula, subsequently negotiated peace with Egypt; gave it back. There is history that 5 times Palestinians have been offered two state solutions.  It was close under Arafat, even though he was amongst the most corrupt of leaders. Each time rejected. Israel was then, like clockwork each & every time, attacked immediately thereafter autonomy was put forward.  Palestinian history in these years is FULL of suffrage, they have also passed on opportunity for peace.

 

Going back to just before 1948; Arabic people treated Jews in Palestine just like Palestinians were then treated by Zionists. Further by corrupt Middle Eastern nations and warlords, who helped clear Palestinians for a Jewish state in 1948. 

 

What you have brought to the table is valid. Honest! Maybe one sided? I could be wrong. A bit loud considering we already know what has been brought up. Many of us here have committed that Israel & Hamas have much blame to share.  

 

There will be lots of history to read in these threads.  Plenty of evidence; even if your suggestions are morally correct, well intended?

 

Hamas would reject peace regardless. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

14 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Just of note - just because it’s written by a Jew, doesn’t automatically make it correct in relation to Israel. I’m not claiming that Bibi didn’t say these things. But we can’t automatically assume he did only because the author of the article is Jewish. I know some Jews with very warped view of the world and Israel.

 

Check out his wiki page.

Very active in promoting Jewish culture in Britain.

Self proclaimed liberal Zionist, though he doesn't like how the word Zionist has morphed somewhat due the actions of many modern Zionists.

He is a governor of Simon Marks Jewish Primary School.

 

Netanyahu is a corrupt, power hungry piece of crap.

He is literally a trump clone as a person.

According to the article he hasn't gone to not a single one of the funerals of the victims of the attacks.

His son hides out in Miami while other reservists his age are joining the fight against Hamas. 

 

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/netanyahu-has-sidestepped-accountability-for-failing-to-prevent-hamas-attack-focusing-blame-on-others

 

" Netanyahu is fighting a personal battle of survival that takes precedence over fighting Isreals war against Hamas said Netanyahu biographer and journalist Anshel Pfeffer "

 

I have been on this guys case for years.

[Canuck Surfer]

The problem with Bibi isn't that he is a Trump clone?

 

I do see similarities.  The problem is he is a lot smarter than Donald Trump.  I argue that makes him more dangerous? Certainly faster, more heavy on the trigger.

 

It kinda begs the question of what you consider dangerous I suppose?   

[RomanPer]

16 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Check out his wiki page.

Very active in promoting Jewish culture in Britain.

Self proclaimed liberal Zionist, though he doesn't like how the word Zionist has morphed somewhat due the actions of many modern Zionists.

He is a governor of Simon Marks Jewish Primary School.

 

Netanyahu is a corrupt, power hungry piece of crap.

He is literally a trump clone as a person.

According to the article he hasn't gone to not a single one of the funerals of the victims of the attacks.

His son hides out in Miami while other reservists his age are joining the fight against Hamas. 

 

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/netanyahu-has-sidestepped-accountability-for-failing-to-prevent-hamas-attack-focusing-blame-on-others

 

" Netanyahu is fighting a personal battle of survival that takes precedence over fighting Isreals war against Hamas said Netanyahu biographer and journalist Anshel Pfeffer "

 

I have been on this guys case for years.

 

I wasn’t challenging the information itself. Just wanted to note that the nationality/religion of an author shouldn’t mean anything as long as the facts reported are correct.

[RomanPer]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

The problem with Bibi isn't that he is a Trump clone?

 

I do see similarities.  The problem is he is a lot smarter than Donald Trump.  I argue that makes him more dangerous? Certainly faster, more heavy on the trigger.

 

It kinda begs the question of what you consider dangerous I suppose?   

 

He pretty much became one in the last 10-15 years, for sure. But I also remember when he won his first election in 1996 - it was a breath of fresh air, compared to an ancient Shimon Peres. Here we had a new young Premier, educated in the US, former Israeli representative in UN, with perfect English and desire to break the monopoly of some 1200 wealthy families that ruled Israel for many years. On his trip to former Soviet Union republics, he loaded several Jewish families in Tbilisi to bring them to Israel since they couldn’t find transportation to Israel for “aliya” (a Hebrew word for Jewish immigration, verbatim translated as “ascension”). He challenged variety of monopolies of government controlled businesses (similar to “crown corporations” in Canada). And then things started to change. His second and especially third terms as PM he started converting into what he is today. It breaks my heart how such a promising start of the career turned into this rubbish that hurts Israel so much.

[Squirter]

 

[Squirter]

44 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I wasn’t challenging the information itself. Just wanted to note that the nationality/religion of an author shouldn’t mean anything as long as the facts reported are correct.

 

[Bob Long]

8 hours ago, pinguin said:

 

Influence people in a misleading way? Am I lying or in any way being dishonest? Or does the context that you were previously unaware of make you a bit.. uncomfortable because it suggests that there may be a legitimate grievance felt by Palestinians?

 

There's plenty of tweets and topics discussed here outside of "getting rid of Hamas" including ones shared by yourself. I've seen posts about Suharto in Indonesia, about posters getting pulled down in the UK, and about rallies happening all over the world. These topics are outside of the scope of "getting rid of Hamas", so they are off topic in your opinion?

 

We just migrated to a new forum Bob.

 

 

 

 

 

"Does it make me uncomfortable"

Edited November 5, 2023 by Bob Long

[Squirter]

 

[Squirter]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

I wasn’t challenging the information itself. Just wanted to note that the nationality/religion of an author shouldn’t mean anything as long as the facts reported are correct.

Here’s a fact for y’a if you’re willing to listen 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Squirter

[Boudrias]

16 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

It seems to me that Canada had no problem arresting 'trucker convoy' people for uttering hate speech and threatening civil order. Why should Hamas supporters be any different. Lock them up and charge them. 

[Junkyard Dog]

2 hours ago, Squirter said:

 

Hasan Piker   

[Bob Long]

42 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

It seems to me that Canada had no problem arresting 'trucker convoy' people for uttering hate speech and threatening civil order. Why should Hamas supporters be any different. Lock them up and charge them. 

 

Sure but they felt entitled enough to hang around for weeks.

 

I'd like to know if the pic we are discussing has been confirmed to be real. 

[bishopshodan]

21 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

Did you copy your poem from the old site before goes down ?

That was beautiful writing.

 

I have copied mine.

 

Thank you man. 

 

I used to write a lot. I wrote lyrics for a few different musical projects many moons ago. I even sang with a couple bands for some time. What I posted on CDC was lyrics from one of my songs i really liked. It was an electronic project, I had a friend of mine come into the studio and do some parts. Can she ever sing, the track turned out great, I sang the verses and she killed the chorus. One day you will hear it. 

 

I miss those days. Maybe, just maybe, i will start writing my thoughts down again. It was always a therapeutic thing for me.  

 

BTW, back at ya... most of the posts I read of yours are to be admired. You`re artistic, smart, and compassionate. Thanks for all you contribute. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by bishopshodan

[Squirter]

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Squirter

[Squirter]

1 hour ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Hasan Piker   

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Squirter

[Optimist Prime]

5 hours ago, RomanPer said:

Just wanted to preempt the outcry about the comment by the Israeli Minister of Heritage Amichai Eliahu about nuking Gaza as an option - as I said before, there are idiots in Israel. He is a clear result of coalition from a proportional vote and the ministry itself is absolutely useless and was formed to give extra ministerial position to the Ben Gvir’s party. There was an immediate huge outcry within Israel about this comment and the idiot has already been suspended and there’s a high chance he’ll be fired.

This is why proportional rep is such a stupid thing for democracy: there needs to be some electoral changes to first past the post, but PROP REP is not it. Any mad hatter with money can raise up 2% of the vote just by buying promo spots. Then that fringe element could be the balance of power seat in a minority government... I really hope we will adopt in Canada the same mechanism as the Conservative Party of Canada uses to elect its leader: Ranked Ballots. You end up wiht someone that more than 50% of voters could support and that person is specifically voted in for that riding, providing human accountability, but I digress. 
I am glad he has been suspended from the proceedings of parliament, there is no use for anyone calling to NUKE muslims.