Hamas attacking Israel

[pinguin]

10 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

There won't be any peace deal until Hamas is destroyed.  They have already declared their intentions.  Also, peace deals have been put in place since 1947 and the Palestinians never agreed to any of them.  Also, when you say the Palestinians who were removed from their homes are allowed to return, in what year are you referring to?  1947, 1967, 2005?

I’m speaking of the 700k people that were removed from the towns and villages in Palestine in order to ensure that when Israel declared independence, the demographic ratio was desirable. So if you want to pick a date, 1947. 
If those people, their kids, and their grandkids are permitted to return to their hometowns (and there has been a UN resolution every year calling for it since 1950) the fighting would be over. 
 

Yes there have been attempted peace deals, and on the one that got us “closest” to peace, Israel was willing to let 5000 people return. That’s it. 

[CBH1926]

12 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

I think you are trying to use old information to influence people. 

 

As I said above, there's one goal here, to rid everyone of Hamas.

 

And look, a new account just jumping right in to the discussion.

Just like the old CDC, new account and it looked like they have been around for years.

I still remember clam getting banned over and over and over again.

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Just like the old CDC, new account and it looked like they have been around for years.

I still remember clam getting banned over and over and over again.

 

I'm just tired of the "influencer" attempts. 

[The Arrogant Worms]

Pro-Palestinian protesters worldwide call for Israel's elimination

 

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/americas/1699168321-pro-palestine-protesters-threaten-to-storm-white-house-call-for-israel-s-elimination

[The Arrogant Worms]

How Israel shot down a ballistic missile in space for the first time

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israel-shot-down-a-ballistic-missile-in-space-for-the-first-time/ar-AA1jonof

[Satchmo]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I'm just tired of the "influencer" attempts. 

He's just 'obligated to try to provide some historical context to the grievances that have brought us here. '

 

We need more of that don't we?  

[Bob Long]

10 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

He's just 'obligated to try to provide some historical context to the grievances that have brought us here. '

 

We need more of that don't we?  

 

Dunno, I'm still mad about that asteroid that killed the dinosaurs.

[Alflives]

36 minutes ago, pinguin said:

I’m speaking of the 700k people that were removed from the towns and villages in Palestine in order to ensure that when Israel declared independence, the demographic ratio was desirable. So if you want to pick a date, 1947. 
If those people, their kids, and their grandkids are permitted to return to their hometowns (and there has been a UN resolution every year calling for it since 1950) the fighting would be over. 
 

Yes there have been attempted peace deals, and on the one that got us “closest” to peace, Israel was willing to let 5000 people return. That’s it. 

What is to be done with Hamas though? 

[Boudrias]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

What is to be done with Hamas though? 

It is never going to happen as it would be the end of the Jewish state. The Arab vote inside Israel would destroy them. They could never be trusted. 

[Satchmo]

2 hours ago, pinguin said:

I’m speaking of the 700k people that were removed from the towns and villages in Palestine in order to ensure that when Israel declared independence, the demographic ratio was desirable. So if you want to pick a date, 1947. 
If those people, their kids, and their grandkids are permitted to return to their hometowns (and there has been a UN resolution every year calling for it since 1950) the fighting would be over. 
 

Yes there have been attempted peace deals, and on the one that got us “closest” to peace, Israel was willing to let 5000 people return. That’s it. 

You continue to make some interesting points, but you seem to be ignoring all questions relating to Hamas.

 

I've thought a bit about your two point peace plan.   It looks promising at first at first glance, but it's a bit like:

 

1) Make dinner

2} Make dessert

 

Each of those two would have to be broken down into an extremely large number of steps.   And you might have to take into account a swarm of mosquitos that don't want dinner, and a swarm of hornets that don't want dessert. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Satchmo
sp

[Alflives]

Just now, Satchmo said:

You continue to make some interesting points, but you seem to be ignoring all questions relating to Hamas.

 

I've thought a bit about your two point peace plan.   It looks promising at first at first glance, but it's a bit like:

 

1) Make dinner

2} Make desert

 

Each of those two would have to be broken down into an extremely large number of steps.   And you might have to take into account a swarm of mosquitos that don't want dinner, and a swarm of hornets that don't want desert. 

And those mosquitoes and hornets don’t want others even preparing the meal, let alone eating it. 
 

[pinguin]

44 minutes ago, Alflives said:

What is to be done with Hamas though? 

Pose a choice to the Palestinians:

 

root out and hand over Hamas militants, and if you do, we’re prepared to allow those of you who have NEVER been affiliated with Hamas or terrorism to come back to your towns, subject to screening 

 

Palestinians would go door to door and hunt down Hamas themselves, this would be over in a matter of days. Israel wouldn’t even need a ground invasion. 
 

Hamas only gained power in 2006. Before that, the Palestinians overwhelmingly backed the PLO renouncing violence to negotiate. 
 

the problem is even in all those negotiations, the right of return was never acknowledged. That remains the sticking point in any negotiations over the Palestinian question. 
 

If Israel is willing to compromise on that question, even on a conditional basis (hand over Hamas, and we’ll do it) Hamas loses in an instant. 

[Alflives]

11 minutes ago, pinguin said:

Pose a choice to the Palestinians:

 

root out and hand over Hamas militants, and if you do, we’re prepared to allow those of you who have NEVER been affiliated with Hamas or terrorism to come back to your towns, subject to screening 

 

Palestinians would go door to door and hunt down Hamas themselves, this would be over in a matter of days. Israel wouldn’t even need a ground invasion. 
 

Hamas only gained power in 2006. Before that, the Palestinians overwhelmingly backed the PLO renouncing violence to negotiate. 
 

the problem is even in all those negotiations, the right of return was never acknowledged. That remains the sticking point in any negotiations over the Palestinian question. 
 

If Israel is willing to compromise on that question, even on a conditional basis (hand over Hamas, and we’ll do it) Hamas loses in an instant. 

What do the Palestinians use for weapons to capture the Hamas people?  It might be a really ugly civil war, no? 

[Satchmo]

4 minutes ago, pinguin said:

Pose a choice to the Palestinians:

 

root out and hand over Hamas militants, and if you do, we’re prepared to allow those of you who have NEVER been affiliated with Hamas or terrorism to come back to your towns, subject to screening 

 

Palestinians would go door to door and hunt down Hamas themselves, this would be over in a matter of days. Israel wouldn’t even need a ground invasion. 
 

Hamas only gained power in 2006. Before that, the Palestinians overwhelmingly backed the PLO renouncing violence to negotiate. 
 

the problem is even in all those negotiations, the right of return was never acknowledged. That remains the sticking point in any negotiations over the Palestinian question. 
 

If Israel is willing to compromise on that question, even on a conditional basis (hand over Hamas, and we’ll do it) Hamas loses in an instant. 

Once again you make everything sound so easy...

 

It may be a bad analogy, and one I would be insulted by if it was sent my way, but it reminds me in some ways of Trump saying he'd solve the Ukraine/Russia hostilities in a few days. 

 

That said, I'm open to any ideas that can bring lasting peace.   If this is the idea, who is going to start it up? 

[pinguin]

15 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

You continue to make some interesting points, but you seem to be ignoring all questions relating to Hamas.

 

I've thought a bit about your two point peace plan.   It looks promising at first at first glance, but it's a bit like:

 

1) Make dinner

2} Make desert

 

Each of those two would have to be broken down into an extremely large number of steps.   And you might have to take into account a swarm of mosquitos that don't want dinner, and a swarm of hornets that don't want desert. 

Sorry I don’t mean to ignore, busy day of home Reno’s. My position on Hamas is the following:

 

1. terrorist organization that must be destroyed, it’s continued to exist for far too long. Elections were almost 20 years ago, and more than half of Palestinians currently in Gaza weren’t even alive during those elections. It’s not a democratically elected political party, it’s a cancer that has to be cut out and removed 

 

2. Hamas preys on a legitimate grievance and frustration felt by Palestinians. Palestinians want to go home and they are tired of living in a concentration camp. They’re also tired of getting massacred by indiscriminate weapons used by Israel. Every bomb dropped by Israel killing a child or a mother or a father created another Palestinian who has “nothing left to lose” and unimaginable anger towards Israel. Hamas knows this which is why it did what it did on October 7. Hamas WANTS Israel to use indiscriminate weapons to kill civilians, knowing that this creates soldiers for Hamas in the coming years. 
 

3. This anger and rage felt by Palestinians is a virus that only continues to spread, but is easily dealt with if approached from a place of compassion and understanding, and a true acknowledgement of its history. Truth and reconciliation. Israel has done that at times in its history, and those are times that a permanent deal was close. 

[pinguin]

8 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Once again you make everything sound so easy...

 

It may be a bad analogy, and one I would be insulted by if it was sent my way, but it reminds me in some ways of Trump saying he'd solve the Ukraine/Russia hostilities in a few days. 

 

That said, I'm open to any ideas that can bring lasting peace.   If this is the idea, who is going to start it up? 

The trouble with my idea is it’s a non-starter for Israel, it’s been a non-starter since 1950. 
Letting those refugees go back to their hometowns is a non negotiable. The best deal the Palestinians were offered at any point here was 5000 would be allowed to return. 
 

im hopeful that by creating an understanding of the origin of these refugees, we will see a broader call to Israel to negotiate on this point, and that some compromise will be found. I understand that having 2-3 million Arabs move into Israel would permanently end Israel’s status as a Jewish state but surely there has to be SOME compromise there. Maybe 10% can return, land swaps for the rest, along with compensation and a “truth and reconciliation” type acknowledgement. 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, pinguin said:

The trouble with my idea is it’s a non-starter for Israel, it’s been a non-starter since 1950. 
Letting those refugees go back to their hometowns is a non negotiable. The best deal the Palestinians were offered at any point here was 5000 would be allowed to return. 
 

im hopeful that by creating an understanding of the origin of these refugees, we will see a broader call to Israel to negotiate on this point, and that some compromise will be found. I understand that having 2-3 million Arabs move into Israel would permanently end Israel’s status as a Jewish state but surely there has to be SOME compromise there. Maybe 10% can return, land swaps for the rest, along with compensation and a “truth and reconciliation” type acknowledgement. 

What about Hamas? They are not going to stop. 

[pinguin]

15 minutes ago, Alflives said:

What do the Palestinians use for weapons to capture the Hamas people?  It might be a really ugly civil war, no? 

There’s 2 million Palestinians vs 20k Hamas militants. Since Hamas hides weapons and itself inside civilian structures like mosques and hospitals and etc. they wouldn’t be able to hide. 
 

it would also put Hamas in a position where it needs to start openly killing Palestinians. It would lose any and all support. 
 

it would be a civil war, but PR wise Israel would be a hero, and Hamas would have nowhere to hide. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, pinguin said:

There’s 2 million Palestinians vs 20k Hamas militants. Since Hamas hides weapons and itself inside civilian structures like mosques and hospitals and etc. they wouldn’t be able to hide. 
 

it would also put Hamas in a position where it needs to start openly killing Palestinians. It would lose any and all support. 
 

it would be a civil war, but PR wise Israel would be a hero, and Hamas would have nowhere to hide. 

Where do the Palestinians get the weapons they need? How do they organize? Their government is Hamas, isn’t it? 

[pinguin]

Just now, Alflives said:

What about Hamas? They are not going to stop. 

That’s what people said about the PLO too, but when Israel produced governments that were willing to negotiate in good faith, the PLO put its weapons down and became Fatah, the current political party that rules the West Bank. 
 

Hamas’s existence hangs by a thread. They know this. Remember to WHO the soldiers of Hamas are- many are 18-20 year olds who have no job, no family. A lot are people who’s mothers fathers kids etc were killed in Israeli bombing campaigns over the past 20 years (like 2014). If you take away the violence and put a true opportunity for reconciliation on the table, Hamas loses its fighting force. Barely anybody wanted to fight for the PLO when Israel came to the table in good faith. Same would happen today. 

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, pinguin said:

That’s what people said about the PLO too, but when Israel produced governments that were willing to negotiate in good faith, the PLO put its weapons down and became Fatah, the current political party that rules the West Bank. 
 

Hamas’s existence hangs by a thread. They know this. Remember to WHO the soldiers of Hamas are- many are 18-20 year olds who have no job, no family. A lot are people who’s mothers fathers kids etc were killed in Israeli bombing campaigns over the past 20 years (like 2014). If you take away the violence and put a true opportunity for reconciliation on the table, Hamas loses its fighting force. Barely anybody wanted to fight for the PLO when Israel came to the table in good faith. Same would happen today. 

I hope you’re right. Because Hamas has horrible ideas about how to live as a society, as posted in their doctrine. 

[RomanPer]

21 minutes ago, pinguin said:

Sorry I don’t mean to ignore, busy day of home Reno’s. My position on Hamas is the following:

 

1. terrorist organization that must be destroyed, it’s continued to exist for far too long. Elections were almost 20 years ago, and more than half of Palestinians currently in Gaza weren’t even alive during those elections. It’s not a democratically elected political party, it’s a cancer that has to be cut out and removed 

 

2. Hamas preys on a legitimate grievance and frustration felt by Palestinians. Palestinians want to go home and they are tired of living in a concentration camp. They’re also tired of getting massacred by indiscriminate weapons used by Israel. Every bomb dropped by Israel killing a child or a mother or a father created another Palestinian who has “nothing left to lose” and unimaginable anger towards Israel. Hamas knows this which is why it did what it did on October 7. Hamas WANTS Israel to use indiscriminate weapons to kill civilians, knowing that this creates soldiers for Hamas in the coming years. 
 

3. This anger and rage felt by Palestinians is a virus that only continues to spread, but is easily dealt with if approached from a place of compassion and understanding, and a true acknowledgement of its history. Truth and reconciliation. Israel has done that at times in its history, and those are times that a permanent deal was close. 

 

So, when that permanent deal was close, who exactly acted to break it? Asking for a friend…

[Satchmo]

3 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

So, when that permanent deal was close, who exactly acted to break it? Asking for a friend…

I'd be telling my friend to look to the future, in hopes that it can be made brighter than the past...

[pinguin]

5 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

So, when that permanent deal was close, who exactly acted to break it? Asking for a friend…

the deal with Arafat was never close because at that time, Ehud Barak wasn’t willing to compromise on the right or return. 
 

Abbas was closer in 2008 with Olmert, Olmert said himself that he was willing to go beyond 5000 and compromise a bit more, but he lost election so negotiations ended. Abbas was reportedly willing to settle for 40-60k refugees going home. 
 

to me those numbers are still frankly appalling, but the fact that Abbas was willing to go that low says a lot. 

[the destroyer of worlds]

I pretty sure there were some who made a big deal about the swastika flag at the rally.  Turns out police are investigating.  

 

 

 

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-police-investigating-nazi-swastika-spotted-at-pro-palestine-rally-1.6631911

Ottawa police investigating Nazi swastika spotted at pro-Palestine rally