Hamas attacking Israel

[pinguin]

Just now, the destroyer of worlds said:

I pretty sure there were some who made a big deal about the swastika flag at the rally.  Turns out police are investigating.  

 

 

 

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-police-investigating-nazi-swastika-spotted-at-pro-palestine-rally-1.6631911

Ottawa police investigating Nazi swastika spotted at pro-Palestine rally

Good, now publish their names too so we can ensure they never get hired anywhere. 

[pinguin]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

I'm just tired of the "influencer" attempts. 

You are of course welcome to dispute, question, and refute anything that I have to say  

Otherwise, if I’m being factually accurate, it’s not a great look to whine about how I’m “influencing” people with my gosh darn facts 

[pinguin]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

This is why proportional rep is such a stupid thing for democracy: there needs to be some electoral changes to first past the post, but PROP REP is not it. Any mad hatter with money can raise up 2% of the vote just by buying promo spots. Then that fringe element could be the balance of power seat in a minority government... I really hope we will adopt in Canada the same mechanism as the Conservative Party of Canada uses to elect its leader: Ranked Ballots. You end up wiht someone that more than 50% of voters could support and that person is specifically voted in for that riding, providing human accountability, but I digress. 
I am glad he has been suspended from the proceedings of parliament, there is no use for anyone calling to NUKE muslims. 

Proportional rep is garbage, the only reason why someone like Netanyahu can even get elected. Heck, it’s the only reason Hitler was able to rise within the Weimar government. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, pinguin said:

Proportional rep is garbage, the only reason why someone like Netanyahu can even get elected. Heck, it’s the only reason Hitler was able to rise within the Weimar government. 

How did Hamas get elected as the government? They are evil. 

[pinguin]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

How did Hamas get elected as the government? They are evil. 

 

throughout history, terrorist organizations have become political parties, or political parties have become terrorists. Remember that the IRA also had Sinn Fein (political party). There’s some specific reasons why people voted for Hamas: Fatah was very corrupt, people in Gaza were unhappy with that. Hamas promised hospitals and schools and to improve people’s day to day lives. Remember how much public support Pablo Escobar got? Mass murderer and killer but people still loved him. The FARC in Columbia consistently received public support too, even though it was a terror organization because it supplied medical services and food to a destitute population. 
 

Hamas changed over time, as many terror organizations do. It also lied and masked its true intentions at times (at one point it lied and said it would be prepared to recognize Israel. It of course wasn’t willing to do so, but it did this to gain some intl recognition)

 

I wrote a paper in university about how terrorist organizations can become more violent as their resource extraction needs change. They can also become less violent if their survival depends on them doing so (IRA, PLO as examples of terrorists putting down their weapons) 
 

the history is fascinating and the Wikipedia article on the history of Hamas and how it got elected is actually quite on point 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas

 

Hamas won’t be the last terrorist organization that comes out of the region, if the underlying grievances aren’t resolved. That’s sort of where I’m going with all my posts. The best way to take Hamas out at the knees is expose them as frauds by removing the peoples support. 

[Canuck Surfer]

On 11/4/2023 at 3:49 PM, moosehead said:

 

Most people that DO NOT support Israel... in fact also  do not support Hezbolah.

 

Not much evidence of this in rallies around the world.  

[Sharpshooter]

9 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

He pretty much became one in the last 10-15 years, for sure. But I also remember when he won his first election in 1996 - it was a breath of fresh air, compared to an ancient Shimon Peres. Here we had a new young Premier, educated in the US, former Israeli representative in UN, with perfect English and desire to break the monopoly of some 1200 wealthy families that ruled Israel for many years. On his trip to former Soviet Union republics, he loaded several Jewish families in Tbilisi to bring them to Israel since they couldn’t find transportation to Israel for “aliya” (a Hebrew word for Jewish immigration, verbatim translated as “ascension”). He challenged variety of monopolies of government controlled businesses (similar to “crown corporations” in Canada). And then things started to change. His second and especially third terms as PM he started converting into what he is today. It breaks my heart how such a promising start of the career turned into this rubbish that hurts Israel so much.

He’s a terrible PM now and has been for some time. 
 

We’ve discussed this in the Russian War thread, so you know my opinion about him and I know yours. 
 

Just wanted to restate my total contempt for Bibi. 
 

 

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

How did Hamas get elected as the government? They are evil. 

 

The usual, propaganda, anger, Iran government backing. But the people made a serious mistake and are paying for it.

 

 

[Super19]

9 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

The usual, propaganda, anger, Iran government backing. But the people made a serious mistake and are paying for it.

 

 

The Palestinian people have been suffering at the hands of Israel long before Oct 7 as well. Just because Israel gets a free pass in the transgressions it commits, doesn't mean that Israel has not committed war crimes and crimes against the Palestinians for years.

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Super19 said:

The Palestinian people have been suffering at the hands of Israel long before Oct 7 as well. Just because Israel gets a free pass in the transgressions it commits, doesn't mean that Israel has not committed war crimes and crimes against the Palestinians for years.

 

So correct me if I'm wrong here, but as far as war crimes convictions go, hasn't this been limited to a handful of individuals over Israel's history? I see people using this term a lot, along with "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" but I see nothing that stands up to the gravity of those terms. Sure people use them but thats not evidence or a conviction.

 

There's a lot of history, a lot of blame, a lot of missed opportunities. And guess what? we can't do anything about any of it. 

 

There's now, and whats happening now. Once the shared goal of removing the terrorists from Gaza has been completed (or at least completed to a manageable state) then we can all get back to historical blame game if someone wants to. 

 

Right now, the only benefit to playing that game is to Hamas, Iran and maybe Russia. 

 

[moosehead]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Not much evidence of this in rallies around the world.  

 

Not true.   You need to provide evidence when making these kinds of accusations. 

 

In other news

Very smart guy...

 

Former President Barack Obama has urged Americans to “take in the whole truth” when weighing Israel’s war against Hamas, saying everyone is “complicit to some to degree” in the conflict.

 

“Nobody’s hands are clean,” the 44th president said during an interview with Pod Save America, a podcast hosted by former White House aides from his presidency, in an excerpt released Saturday.

 

“What Hamas did was horrific, and there’s no justification for it. And what is also true is that the occupation, and what’s happening to Palestinians, is unbearable,” Obama, 62, said, explaining that the only way to solve the crisis was to accept those seemingly contradictory ideas.

 

https://nypost.com/2023/11/05/news/obama-says-both-sides-to-blame-for-israel-hamas-conflict-nobodys-hands-are-clean/

Edited November 5, 2023 by moosehead

[Super19]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

So correct me if I'm wrong here, but as far as war crimes convictions go, hasn't this been limited to a handful of individuals over Israel's history? I see people using this term a lot, along with "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" but I see nothing that stands up to the gravity of those terms. Sure people use them but thats not evidence or a conviction.

 

There's a lot of history, a lot of blame, a lot of missed opportunities. And guess what? we can't do anything about any of it. 

 

There's now, and whats happening now. Once the shared goal of removing the terrorists from Gaza has been completed (or at least completed to a manageable state) then we can all get back to historical blame game if someone wants to. 

 

Right now, the only benefit to playing that game is to Hamas, Iran and maybe Russia. 

 

What's happening now is a destruction of Gaza and everything in it. Reports of the equivalent of 2 nukes have been dropped on Gaza. If Hamas was in Downtown Vancouver, would it be acceptable to bomb all of Downtown? 

Israel is destroying universities, hospitals, bread factories, neighborhoods, refugee camps, families, cats, dogs, I've seen everything been bombed. 

Some Israeli citizens chanting "turn it into a parking lot". Netanyahu wants to destroy Gaza as we know it today, including Gazans. Hamas or not, it doesn't matter to him as evident from the collaterall damage we have seen. Some Israelie leaders even calling Palestinians "animals". This is turning into a genocide, and you may not believe in the death totals coming out from Palestine, but they are increasing everyday at a fast rate.

[Sharpshooter]

12 minutes ago, Super19 said:

What's happening now is a destruction of Gaza and everything in it. Reports of the equivalent of 2 nukes have been dropped on Gaza. If Hamas was in Downtown Vancouver, would it be acceptable to bomb all of Downtown? 

Israel is destroying universities, hospitals, bread factories, neighborhoods, refugee camps, families, cats, dogs, I've seen everything been bombed. 

Some Israeli citizens chanting "turn it into a parking lot". Netanyahu wants to destroy Gaza as we know it today, including Gazans. Hamas or not, it doesn't matter to him as evident from the collaterall damage we have seen. Some Israelie leaders even calling Palestinians "animals". This is turning into a genocide, and you may not believe in the death totals coming out from Palestine, but they are increasing everyday at a fast rate.

I understand your passion and frustration but you need to dial it back. 
 

 

[Satchmo]

12 minutes ago, Super19 said:

What's happening now is a destruction of Gaza and everything in it. Reports of the equivalent of 2 nukes have been dropped on Gaza. If Hamas was in Downtown Vancouver, would it be acceptable to bomb all of Downtown? 

Israel is destroying universities, hospitals, bread factories, neighborhoods, refugee camps, families, cats, dogs, I've seen everything been bombed. 

Some Israeli citizens chanting "turn it into a parking lot". Netanyahu wants to destroy Gaza as we know it today, including Gazans. Hamas or not, it doesn't matter to him as evident from the collaterall damage we have seen. Some Israelie leaders even calling Palestinians "animals". This is turning into a genocide, and you may not believe in the death totals coming out from Palestine, but they are increasing everyday at a fast rate.

here I go again...  At the risk of pissing off Bob for once more responding to a response of one of his posts:

 

I agree many horrific acts have taken place and many people are saying horrible things.

 

What do you think are the best moves going forward to end this mess?

 

[CBH1926]

Looking at the poll numbers in Israel, Netanyahu support is pretty low despite recent terrorist attack.

Even Bush who was one of the worst presidents ever, got approval numbers around 80% in the aftermath of the September 11th. Once this carnage stops, Bibi is going to be out as a PM imo.

[Bob Long]

17 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

here I go again...  At the risk of pissing off Bob for once more responding to a response of one of his posts:

 

I agree many horrific acts have taken place and many people are saying horrible things.

 

What do you think are the best moves going forward to end this mess?

 

 

You're not pissing me off at all, this is a difficult topic.

 

I really think what the IDF is currently doing is the only path forward. Not saying I like it or an happy about it. I just see no other choice.

[Bob Long]

36 minutes ago, Super19 said:

What's happening now is a destruction of Gaza and everything in it. Reports of the equivalent of 2 nukes have been dropped on Gaza. If Hamas was in Downtown Vancouver, would it be acceptable to bomb all of Downtown? 

Israel is destroying universities, hospitals, bread factories, neighborhoods, refugee camps, families, cats, dogs, I've seen everything been bombed. 

Some Israeli citizens chanting "turn it into a parking lot". Netanyahu wants to destroy Gaza as we know it today, including Gazans. Hamas or not, it doesn't matter to him as evident from the collaterall damage we have seen. Some Israelie leaders even calling Palestinians "animals". This is turning into a genocide, and you may not believe in the death totals coming out from Palestine, but they are increasing everyday at a fast rate.

 

Ok so "2 nukes" would mean all of Israel was gone too.

 

If Israel wanted Gaza destroyed they could have done that many times over. 

 

We have to resist falling into hyperbolic discussion on this, it doesn't help anyone imo.

[Satchmo]

12 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

You're not pissing me off at all, this is a difficult topic.

 

I really think what the IDF is currently doing is the only path forward. Not saying I like it or an happy about it. I just see no other choice.

Respect your opinion, but I think that approach - if indeed it worked - would only be a temporary solution and we would be back at this before long.

 

I'm holding out hope for something more permanent, in the same way the conflict resolutions in Ireland and South Africa at least appear to be permanent.

 

I understand how complex everything is, and how there are actually many countries and organizations involved in this, with decades of bad blood, but I still hope.

 

It once struck me that the correct response to 90% of all CDC/CFF posts is: 'We'll see'.  So I guess we'll see.

[RomanPer]

4 hours ago, pinguin said:

the deal with Arafat was never close because at that time, Ehud Barak wasn’t willing to compromise on the right or return. 
 

Abbas was closer in 2008 with Olmert, Olmert said himself that he was willing to go beyond 5000 and compromise a bit more, but he lost election so negotiations ended. Abbas was reportedly willing to settle for 40-60k refugees going home. 
 

to me those numbers are still frankly appalling, but the fact that Abbas was willing to go that low says a lot. 

Ok, we moved to the next step - what was the reaction of Arafat and Abbas when they didn’t get everything they wanted?

[Super19]

21 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Ok so "2 nukes" would mean all of Israel was gone too.

 

If Israel wanted Gaza destroyed they could have done that many times over. 

 

We have to resist falling into hyperbolic discussion on this, it doesn't help anyone imo.

 

"If Israel wanted Gaza destroyed, they would have done it 10x over by now with ease, so thus, Israel doesn't want Gaza destroyed". Is a dangerous statement in these times, because while Israel has had the means to obliterate Gaza swiftly and definitively, it is not their only way of doing it. And why would they do it this way anyway? Such an open attack would not get the backing of any world leader.

But this "attack on Hamas" has led to a carpet bomb on Gaza, with escalations and a long campain on the horizon... with the fear that it'll go on until Gaza as we know it is gone. Infact, Gaza as we knew it from a month ago is now already gone. There's already been lots of destruction this past month.

 

Statements like "if Israel wanted Gaza destroyed it'd already have been destroyed" is a fallacy. Especially when right now, Israel under this Nentanyahu leadership, is destroying Gaza in real time more violently than it has been in recent history.

 

If Nentanyahu can convince that this is a fight against Hamas and Gaza isn't being targetted/destroyed right now, then he could get away with a genocide. Which is what many people are worried and critical about. Because it certainly loooks like Gaza is being destroyed this time, isn't it?

 

It also begs questions that need to be solved, like how did Israel's defense and Intelligence systems fail on Oct 7th, when their worst terror attack in history was because Hamas terrorists were able to infiltrate into Israel by paragliding. 

 

I'm not trying to paint a hyperbole. But what's happening right now deserves a critical look from all angles. Because the collateral damage is far too much, too many elderly, women and children have died, and Gaza is becoming more and more inhabitible by the day as more and more bombs drop. People need to be assured that this is not a genocide in the making.

 

 

 

[RomanPer]

25 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 

 

It also begs questions that need to be solved, like how did Israel's defense and Intelligence systems fail on Oct 7th, when their worst terror attack in history was because Hamas terrorists were able to infiltrate into Israel by paragliding. 

 

 

It absolutely does, but it’s entirely internal Israeli matter that will be dealt with in due time.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by RomanPer

[Bob Long]

23 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 

"If Israel wanted Gaza destroyed, they would have done it 10x over by now with ease, so thus, Israel doesn't want Gaza destroyed". Is a dangerous statement in these times, because while Israel has had the means to obliterate Gaza swiftly and definitively, it is not their only way of doing it. And why would they do it this way anyway? Such an open attack would not get the backing of any world leader.

But this "attack on Hamas" has led to a carpet bomb on Gaza, with escalations and a long campain on the horizon... with the fear that it'll go on until Gaza as we know it is gone. Infact, Gaza as we knew it from a month ago is now already gone. There's already been lots of destruction this past month.

 

Statements like "if Israel wanted Gaza destroyed it'd already have been destroyed" is a fallacy. Especially when right now, Israel under this Nentanyahu leadership, is destroying Gaza in real time more violently than it has been in recent history.

 

If Nentanyahu can convince that this is a fight against Hamas and Gaza isn't being targetted/destroyed right now, then he could get away with a genocide. Which is what many people are worried and critical about. Because it certainly loooks like Gaza is being destroyed this time, isn't it?

 

Again, carpet bombing didn't happen. Genocide didn't happen.

 

Lots of things could happen. Let's concentrate on what is happening.

 

23 minutes ago, Super19 said:

It also begs questions that need to be solved, like how did Israel's defense and Intelligence systems fail on Oct 7th, when their worst terror attack in history was because Hamas terrorists were able to infiltrate into Israel by paragliding. 

 

Israel is in no way to blame for Oct 7.

 

23 minutes ago, Super19 said:

I'm not trying to paint a hyperbole. But what's happening right now deserves a critical look from all angles. Because the collateral damage is far too much, too many elderly, women and children have died, and Gaza is becoming more and more inhabitible by the day as more and more bombs drop. People need to be assured that this is not a genocide in the making.

 

 

 

 

People don't need to be reassured of anything like that imo. It's baseless when you actually look at what's happening.

[Super19]

20 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Again, carpet bombing didn't happen. Genocide didn't happen.

 

Lots of things could happen. Let's concentrate on what is happening.

 

 

Israel is in no way to blame for Oct 7.

 

 

People don't need to be reassured of anything like that imo. It's baseless when you actually look at what's happening.

 

These numbers coming out of Israel actually dwarfs the numbers coming out from the Palestinian Health Authority

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

 

These numbers coming out of Israel actually dwarfs the numbers coming out from the Palestinian Health Authority

 

Would the PHA be government so Hamas?

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 

These numbers coming out of Israel actually dwarfs the numbers coming out from the Palestinian Health Authority

 

 

So let's wait for confirmation. I'm not going to jump to any conclusions off some rando tweet. 

 

imo its really important to temper these discussions with some deep breaths and not jump to instant twitter reaction. Doing that will hurt Palestinians, because people will just tune it all out faster when they learn much of what they are being presented with is disinformation.

 

If thats 20,000 Hamas terrorists its time to celebrate. 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Bob Long