Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

49 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I'll let the experts do that.

 

X is an unknown quantity

Spurt is a drip under pressure.

 

What qualifies a person to be an expert on something ?

A master's , a PHD, a lifetime of researching and studying a subject with no letters after your name ? 

 

What I trust is my ability to research a subject, my ability to think critically about it, recognise that I am fallible, then come to a conclusion 

[Sharpshooter]

2 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Should people be worried about a genocide?

Is the mission of Israel currently to eradicate the Palestinian people as a group? 

[Satchmo]

9 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Should people be worried about a genocide?

Always.   Are you working towards asking me if I see one here?   If so, my answer would be no.

[Super19]

4 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Is the mission of Israel currently to eradicate the Palestinian people as a group? 

Israel says they are targeting Hamas with the goal to eradicate Hamas for good. But facta non verba? The question still stands. Should we be worried about a potential genocide?

[Sharpshooter]

Just now, Super19 said:

Israel says they are targeting Hamas with the goal to eradicate Hamas for good. But facta non verba? The question still stands. Should we be worried about a potential genocide?

Is Hamas ‘the Palestinian people’ or a terrorist group disguised as a political party? Aperi oculos tuos. 

 

[Sharpshooter]

 

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

Is Hamas ‘the Palestinian people’ or a terrorist group disguised as a political party? Aperi oculos tuos. 

 

Israel is targeting Hamas. 4,000+ children dead since Israeli airstrikes began Oct 7th. Israel...targeting... Hamas.... 4,000+ children dead.... is there an option 3, Hamas = children?

Or is Israel that careless? Incompetent? Malicious? No, they're justified. Actually those children's death aren't even on Israel, it's all on Hamas. Infact, did that many children even die, really? There are no red lines for Israel in this war - The US said that.

[Taxi]

8 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

 

My guess is that while the citizens of the West Bank support the Gazans, they also do not care much for Hamas and don't want to be ruled by Hamas, and they're ultra conservative agenda.

[Super19]

6 minutes ago, Taxi said:

My guess is that while the citizens of the West Bank support the Gazans, they also do not care much for Hamas and don't want to be ruled by Hamas, and they're ultra conservative agenda.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-rights-office-raises-alarm-over-situation-west-bank-2023-11-03/

 

There's been deaths on the West Bank as well and increased military coverage there.

[Ballisticsports]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

 

 

It also begs questions that need to be solved, like how did Israel's defense and Intelligence systems fail on Oct 7th, when their worst terror attack in history was because Hamas terrorists were able to infiltrate into Israel by paragliding. 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not into wars as it seems senseless and just a control of someone else wanting power

I honestly have not been following this war very closely, (as it is too depressing and sad what the human race does to people, animals and the planet)

So maybe I am naive (which I would rather carry, than hate and revenge)

Just putting the question out here

 

The title of this thread is Hamas attacking Israel , and you beg to know why Israel defense failed?

Why was Israel attacked in the 1st place, begs the question more?

Were they expecting Israel to invite them to a tea party after ?

Smash a wasp nest down, walk into a den, grab a cub- even nature will retaliate, (expecting less is foolish) 

 

Unfortunately as long as there is money and power, there will always be war

America has it's own lil war,(a lot less severe than other parts of the world or this topic tragedy) now that the country is built and no need for middle class

Found this George Carlin view interesting

#georgecarlin | Rag Paper Media | mindset.essentials · Original audio

facebook.com

 

Point being, does anyone really have a choice, or opinion that matters in extremities such as war etc to change what will happen?

 

 

 

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Gurn said:

How do we 'know'?

 

Or have 'we' just decided which media reports and which government reports 'we' believe?

 

The first casualty of war is truth.

 

Yes, how do we know what's accurate? 

 

Am I supposed to believe the group that attacked on Oct 7? Does that seem reasonable?

[Super19]

5 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

I am not into wars as it seems senseless and just a control of someone else wanting power

I honestly have not been following this war very closely, (as it is too depressing and sad what the human race does to people, animals and the planet)

So maybe I am naive (which I would rather carry, than hate and revenge)

Just putting the question out here

 

The title of this thread is Hamas attacking Israel , and you beg to know why Israel defense failed?

Why was Israel attacked in the 1st place, begs the question more?

Were they expecting Israel to invite them to a tea party after ?

Smash a wasp nest down, walk into a den, grab a cub- even nature will retaliate, (expecting less is foolish) 

 

Unfortunately as long as there is money and power, there will always be war

America has it's own lil war,(a lot less severe than other parts of the world or this topic tragedy) now that the country is built and no need for middle class

Found this George Carlin view interesting

#georgecarlin | Rag Paper Media | mindset.essentials · Original audio

facebook.com

 

Point being, does anyone really have a choice, or opinion that matters in extremities such as war etc to change what will happen?

 

 

 

Israeli defense and Intel is the top in the world. Those guys are good, really good, at what they do. So the failure on Oct 7th does need to be looked into, absolutely. Especially when it was hamas on paragliders which doesn't sound like what should thwart a sophisticated system. They'll need to answer for the breach in time, surely.

 

Hamas is made up of many young Palestinians. These young men, anyone over the age of 20, have survived through 4 major wars in just their lifetime. They've likely had families and lives torn apart from Israeli violence all their life. These guys have vengeance in their blood. Total villain origin story, the question why they attacked Israel is not perplexing. Vengeance. Retaliation. Terror. This is why Israeli defense and Intelligence is so good, because it needs to be as the constant threat they have from these villains is real.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RomanPer]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

 

These numbers coming out of Israel actually dwarfs the numbers coming out from the Palestinian Health Authority

 

 

I cannot find any such news on the Yediot Ahronot website in Hebrew. I'd like to see something beyond this tweet (whoever that low key guys is).

[Junkyard Dog]

15 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Israel is targeting Hamas. 4,000+ children dead since Israeli airstrikes began Oct 7th. Israel...targeting... Hamas.... 4,000+ children dead.... is there an option 3, Hamas = children?

Or is Israel that careless? Incompetent? Malicious? No, they're justified. Actually those children's death aren't even on Israel, it's all on Hamas. Infact, did that many children even die, really? There are no red lines for Israel in this war - The US said that.

 

 

The unfortunate reality is that Gaza is an immensely packed area that Hamas likes to hide from and attack Israel amongst the population, the Gaza population's average age is around 19(nearly half the population is under 18 and their biggest demographic is 0-14 at over 40% of the population) and that Israel wants to eliminate Hamas.

 

The population is overwhelmingly young which means a lot of young people are gonna die in civilian casualties.

 

To contextualize this, the number of children dead in comparison with the total amount dead(roughly around 10,000) in Gaza roughly aligns with the age demographic of the Gazan population.

 

It's a horrendous and unfortunate circumstance of the situation that I wish wasn't the case but is. 

 

2 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Israeli defense and Intel is the top in the world. Those guys are good, really good, at what they do. So the failure on Oct 7th does need to be looked into, absolutely. Especially when it was hamas on paragliders which doesn't sound like what should thwart a sophisticated system. They'll need to answer for the breach in time, surely.

 

Hamas is made up of many young Palestinians. These young men, anyone over the age of 20, have survived through 4 major wars in just their lifetime. They've likely had families and lives torn apart from Israeli violence all their life. These guys have vengeance in their blood. Total villain origin story, the question why they attacked Israel is not perplexing. Vengeance. Retaliation. Terror. This is why Israeli defense and Intelligence is so good, because it needs to be as the constant threat they have from these villains is real.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wasn't Israel going through a lot of internal turmoil with Bibi and the Supreme Court? IDF reservists protesting/refusing to take part or show up in drills, protests in Israel, etc. Likely was a perfect time to attack for Hamas.  Maybe @RomanPer can elaborate on this?

 

There are protests happening now too calling for Bibi's head, faulting him apparently. I wonder if what was happening prior to the attack correlates. I don't expect Bibi to survive politically at the very least after all is said and done. 

 

Seems like the clock is ticking for Bibi. Only a matter of time even with this war going on. 

[moosehead]

5 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

 

The unfortunate reality is that Gaza is an immensely packed area that Hamas likes to hide from and attack Israel amongst the population, the Gaza population's average age is around 19(nearly half the population is under 18 and their biggest demographic is 0-14 at over 40% of the population) and that Israel wants to eliminate Hamas.

 

The population is overwhelmingly young which means a lot of young people are gonna die in civilian casualties.

 

To contextualize this, the number of children dead in comparison with the total amount dead(roughly around 10,000) in Gaza roughly aligns with the age demographic of the Gazan population.

 

It's a horrendous and unfortunate circumstance of the situation that I wish wasn't the case but is. 

 

 

Wasn't Israel going through a lot of internal turmoil with Bibi and the Supreme Court? IDF reservists protesting/refusing to take part or show up in drills, protests in Israel, etc. Likely was a perfect time to attack for Hamas.  Maybe @RomanPer can elaborate on this?

 

There are protests happening now too calling for Bibi's head, faulting him apparently. I wonder if what was happening prior to the attack correlates. I don't expect Bibi to survive politically at the very least after all is said and done. 

 

Seems like the clock is ticking for Bibi. Only a matter of time even with this war going on. 

 

There is actually MANY more politicians in Israel that are even much more extreme than Bibi......   

 

[RomanPer]

41 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Israel is targeting Hamas. 4,000+ children dead since Israeli airstrikes began Oct 7th. Israel...targeting... Hamas.... 4,000+ children dead.... is there an option 3, Hamas = children?

Or is Israel that careless? Incompetent? Malicious? No, they're justified. Actually those children's death aren't even on Israel, it's all on Hamas. Infact, did that many children even die, really? There are no red lines for Israel in this war - The US said that.

 

I guess I'll join a good company of Biden and Israel - and I wrote it in this thread before and I'll write it again. Let's take 2 highest profile events during this war:

 

1) "Israeli bomb kills 500 in a hospital" - the initial headline. After the fact checking - it's not Israeli bomb and it's not 500 but more like 50 in a parking lot

2) "Jibalya refugee camp bombing kills 400 people, mainly women and children" - the initial headline. After the fact checking - only 50 confirmed death and majority look to be Hamas fighters

 

All the numbers are coming only from Hamas controlled Health Ministry. If the 2 cases above are any indication, we should probably divide these "official" numbers by about 8. Does it make death of these people less important? Absolutely not. It's awful that civilians that Hamas is using as human shield are dying. But it puts the whole "genocide" narrative in perspective. It also significantly changes the percentage split between killed civilians and killed Hamas terrorists.

[Junkyard Dog]

13 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

There is actually MANY more politicians in Israel that are even much more extreme than Bibi......   

 

 

Yeah, that one that got reprimanded for wanting nukes. What a dumbass. 

 

Bibi is at odds with the people now.. What he was doing with the judicial overhaul of the Supreme Court that has been going on for a while. There were mass protests and a general strike about it months before the attack and even some talk of civil war. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Junkyard Dog

[Super19]

8 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I guess I'll join a good company of Biden and Israel - and I wrote it in this thread before and I'll write it again. Let's take 2 highest profile events during this war:

 

1) "Israeli bomb kills 500 in a hospital" - the initial headline. After the fact checking - it's not Israeli bomb and it's not 500 but more like 50 in a parking lot

2) "Jibalya refugee camp bombing kills 400 people, mainly women and children" - the initial headline. After the fact checking - only 50 confirmed death and majority look to be Hamas fighters

 

All the numbers are coming only from Hamas controlled Health Ministry. If the 2 cases above are any indication, we should probably divide these "official" numbers by about 8. Does it make death of these people less important? Absolutely not. It's awful that civilians that Hamas is using as human shield are dying. But it puts the whole "genocide" narrative in perspective. It also significantly changes the percentage split between killed civilians and killed Hamas terrorists.

1) the whodunit is still up for contention. The health authority finalized their numbers to 471 in regards to the hospital bombing. American intel have it estimated between 100-300 but did not say how they arrived to the conclusion. 

The Palestinian health authority, believe it or not, has an accurate track record in reporting deaths. Credit to where credit is due.

[RomanPer]

10 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

 

The unfortunate reality is that Gaza is an immensely packed area that Hamas likes to hide from and attack Israel amongst the population, the Gaza population's average age is around 19(nearly half the population is under 18 and their biggest demographic is 0-14 at over 40% of the population) and that Israel wants to eliminate Hamas.

 

The population is overwhelmingly young which means a lot of young people are gonna die in civilian casualties.

 

To contextualize this, the number of children dead in comparison with the total amount dead(roughly around 10,000) in Gaza roughly aligns with the age demographic of the Gazan population.

 

It's a horrendous and unfortunate circumstance of the situation that I wish wasn't the case but is. 

 

 

Wasn't Israel going through a lot of internal turmoil with Bibi and the Supreme Court? IDF reservists protesting/refusing to take part or show up in drills, protests in Israel, etc. Likely was a perfect time to attack for Hamas.  Maybe @RomanPer can elaborate on this?

 

There are protests happening now too calling for Bibi's head, faulting him apparently. I wonder if what was happening prior to the attack correlates. I don't expect Bibi to survive politically at the very least after all is said and done. 

 

Seems like the clock is ticking for Bibi. Only a matter of time even with this war going on. 

 

You are correct, Bibi's attempt on usurping the power by passing the dictatorial reform of justice system most like was part of it. But I think that the primary reason was the typical Israeli mentality that "ha kol yihye beseder" (everything will be fine). There are multiple reports from the female soldiers whose job is to watch the cameras facing the wall with Gaza - they saw large numbers of Gazans come to the wall with various surveillance equipment, they saw Gazans dig holes near the wall. All this was reported to their commanding officers, who would just shake it off and tell the girls that "these are just farmers". The inquiry will definitely happen and it will determine whether all this was incredible negligence or deliberate sabotage of intelligence gathering.

 

Protests in Israel near the offices of Netanyahu are now almost non-stop, at different levels of aggression. Even within Likud, his numbers are dropping and Likud's numbers as a party are extremely low. I don't see him recovering from it and I really hope he doesn't and takes Ben Gvirs of his government with him. Don't get me wrong - I'm not "peace at all cost" type of a guy, I don't trust the other side (I truly believe that trust is earned and not given), I definitely don't want an agreement signed for the sake of agreement. Any peace deal will have to be enforceable and Palestinian Authority will have to work hard to earn trust of the Israelis if they truly want peace with Israel. But Bibi and his extreme right side and ultra orthodox chronies are definitely not the ones to take us there.

[RomanPer]

1 minute ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

Yeah, that one that got reprimanded for wanting nukes. What a dumbass. 

 

Bibi is at odds with the people now.. What he was doing with the judicial overhaul of the Supreme Court that has been going on for a while. There were mass protests and a general strike about it months before the attack and even some talk of civil war. 

 

"MANY more"? I'd really like to know who those "many" are. 1-2 idiots doesn't count as "many more".

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

"MANY more"? I'd really like to know who those "many" are. 1-2 idiots doesn't count as "many more".

 

IDK, I can't speak for that. I simply stated that one dude who wanted nukes was the dumbass that stands out.

 

Moose would have to answer the total number.

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, RomanPer said:

 

You are correct, Bibi's attempt on usurping the power by passing the dictatorial reform of justice system most like was part of it. But I think that the primary reason was the typical Israeli mentality that "ha kol yihye beseder" (everything will be fine). There are multiple reports from the female soldiers whose job is to watch the cameras facing the wall with Gaza - they saw large numbers of Gazans come to the wall with various surveillance equipment, they saw Gazans dig holes near the wall. All this was reported to their commanding officers, who would just shake it off and tell the girls that "these are just farmers". The inquiry will definitely happen and it will determine whether all this was incredible negligence or deliberate sabotage of intelligence gathering.

 

Protests in Israel near the offices of Netanyahu are now almost non-stop, at different levels of aggression. Even within Likud, his numbers are dropping and Likud's numbers as a party are extremely low. I don't see him recovering from it and I really hope he doesn't and takes Ben Gvirs of his government with him. Don't get me wrong - I'm not "peace at all cost" type of a guy, I don't trust the other side (I truly believe that trust is earned and not given), I definitely don't want an agreement signed for the sake of agreement. Any peace deal will have to be enforceable and Palestinian Authority will have to work hard to earn trust of the Israelis if they truly want peace with Israel. But Bibi and his extreme right side and ultra orthodox chronies are definitely not the ones to take us there.

 

Do you think Bibi is jailed or even killed after the dust has settled? Or just politically nullified.

 

Seems like he was already on bad terms with the people even prior to the attacks even last spring. Weren't there talks of civil war or was that overblown by media?

 

I am curious from your POV about how much tension and turmoil Bibi brought about earlier this year. 

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, Super19 said:

1) the whodunit is still up for contention. The health authority finalized their numbers to 471 in regards to the hospital bombing. American intel have it estimated between 100-300 but did not say how they arrived to the conclusion. 

The Palestinian health authority, believe it or not, has an accurate track record in reporting deaths. Credit to where credit is due.

 

There's no contention on who bombed the parking lot in front of the hospitals. There was no Israeli rocket in that vicinity. Of course, you can believe what you want, but it won't make it a fact.

 

How can you substantiate that last statement? It seems just like something you believe in. And I believe in something completely different. Please tell me - did you see actual cemeteries with these thousands dead? As per Islam, a body can't be cremated, it has to be buried within pretty short period of time. One would expect to see pretty large fresh cemeteries with all the thousands of dead. And I'm sure Hamas propaganda would love to use the images of such large cemeteries in their PR campaign.

2 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

IDK, I can't speak for that. I simply stated that one dude who wanted nukes was the dumbass that stands out.

 

Moose would have to answer the total number.

 

Sorry, bud, moose is on my ignore list so I only see his "escapades" in quotes of others. It was directed to his comment.

[moosehead]

7 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

"MANY more"? I'd really like to know who those "many" are. 1-2 idiots doesn't count as "many more".

 

One of the key factors that led to the victory of Benjamin Netanyahu’s right-wing bloc in Tuesday's Israeli elections was the unprecedented rise of the extreme right.

 

Why it matters: The next Israeli government will include a large number of politicians known for their racist, misogynistic, ultra-religious, anti-Arab or anti-LGBTQ rhetoric.

 

Driving the news: For many years, Netanyahu kept his distance from the extreme right, especially Jewish supremacist politician Itamar Ben-Gvir and his Jewish Power party.

• But since the 2019 elections, he cultivated his relationship with extreme right politicians as he worked to unite its different factions. Unlike any previous Likud leader, Netanyahu normalized this relationship inside his constituency.

With a campaign focused on "law and order" and promises to increase personal security and implement the death penalty against terrorists, Ben-Gvir, who was a fringe politician, gained support among new constituencies that hadn't supported him before.

• Many of Ben-Gvir’s voters were young first-time voters, including many soldiers and some secular voters who reside in upper-middle-class cities in central Israel.
• He also managed to swing voters who used to support centrist parties to the right-wing bloc.

What they're saying: During his victory speech last night, Ben-Gvir called to the stage Rabbi Dov Lior, who is known for his extremist, racist and misogynistic religious rulings and rhetoric.

• He then praised Bentzi Gopstein, a member of his party who was disqualified by the Supreme Court from running in the elections due to his racist statements.
• At a certain point during Ben-Gvir’s speech, some of his supporters started chanting “death to the Arabs” and “death to the terrorists."

Catch up quick: Ben-Gvir is a follower and a student of Rabbi Mair Kahane, who was known for his racist rhetoric. Kahane, who was assassinated in 1990, formed the Kach party, which until last May was designated as a terror organization by the U.S. government.

 

• Ben-Gvir was convicted in 2007 of supporting a terror organization and inciting racism.
• Ben-Gvir has said he wants to establish a new ministry for encouraging the emigration of "enemies" and people who are "disloyal" to the state. He also says he will try to pass laws for implementing the death sentence against those he calls "terrorists."
• Ben-Gvir’s political partner, Bezalel Smotrich, the leader of the Religious Zionism party, has a history of making racist remarks about Arab citizens of Israel. Smotrich has said the murder of a Palestinian family by Jewish settlers was not terrorism, and he organized an anti-gay parade in Jerusalem.

Their parties also include Avi Maoz, the leader of Noam, a radical religious party that focuses primarily on opposing LGBTQ+ rights.

• One of the members of Ben-Gvir’s party, Isaac Wasserlauf, was an activist against African asylum-seekers. Almog Cohen, another member of Ben-Gvir’s party, expressed support for Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

https://www.axios.com/2022/11/02/israel-election-extreme-far-right-rise-netanyahu-victory

 

[moosehead]

Mr Netanyahu's coalition partners reject the idea of a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict - the internationally backed formula for peace which envisages an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank alongside Israel, with Jerusalem as their shared capital.

 

The leader of the Religious Zionism party, which in alliance with two other far-right parties won the third largest number of seats in the knesset (parliament), wants to see Israel annex the West Bank and has been given wide powers over its activities there.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63942616