Hamas attacking Israel

[RomanPer]

1 minute ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

Do you think Bibi is jailed or even killed after the dust has settled? Or just politically nullified.

 

Seems like he was already on bad terms with the people even prior to the attacks even last spring. Weren't there talks of civil war or was that overblown by media?

 

I am curious from your POV about how much tension and turmoil Bibi brought about earlier this year. 

 

There's no death penalty in Israel. I'd like to see him jailed, for sure, for variety of reasons. Politically - I believe he's already dead.

 

Bibi's "justice reform" was a disaster. In order to protect himself, he tried to remove any power of oversight over the government decisions from the judicial system, which is essentially removing all the checks and balances that must exist in any healthy democracy. The country was paralyzed with the protests against it and yet he kept on pushing.

 

The problem going forward is that the proportional election system will continue producing results in which small marginal party would have disproportional influence on the government policy. In the old forum there was a discussion about implementing similar proportional system in Canada and I was screaming there about the negative effect of such system, using Israel as an example.

[moosehead]

Further clues to how Netanyahu and his partners will govern are apparent in the coalition agreement that sets out the new government’s guidelines. Though it is not legally binding, it states plainly its ideology: “The Jewish people have an exclusive and inalienable right over all areas of the Land of Israel. The government will promote and develop the settlement of all parts of the Land of Israel — in the Galilee, the Negev, the Golan and Judea and Samaria,” the latter referring to the occupied West Bank.

 

This goes further than any previous agreements. The government has made “explicit the coalition parties’ long-standing intent to further entrench Jewish supremacy and Palestinian repression throughout the State of Israel and the occupied West Bank through a two-tiered system of governance on all levels,’’ Israeli human rights organization Adalah writes in a report

 

https://www.vox.com/world/2023/1/20/23561464/israel-new-right-wing-government-extreme-protests-netanyahu-biden-ben-gvir

[Super19]

16 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

There's no contention on who bombed the parking lot in front of the hospitals. There was no Israeli rocket in that vicinity. Of course, you can believe what you want, but it won't make it a fact.

 

How can you substantiate that last statement? It seems just like something you believe in. And I believe in something completely different. Please tell me - did you see actual cemeteries with these thousands dead? As per Islam, a body can't be cremated, it has to be buried within pretty short period of time. One would expect to see pretty large fresh cemeteries with all the thousands of dead. And I'm sure Hamas propaganda would love to use the images of such large cemeteries in their PR campaign.

 

Sorry, bud, moose is on my ignore list so I only see his "escapades" in quotes of others. It was directed to his comment.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion

 

It's heavily contested. Also why would Israel need to fake that conversation -  that's been ruled out as not a credible source and fabricated. Also, an Israeli official had tweeted about the strike moments around the time it happened but almost immediately deleted it and then backtracked. 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-death-toll-records-1.7010255

 

Again, credit to where credit is due, you can see how the Health Authority has an accurate track record. You can give them that much, at least to acknowledge in the immediate past they were accurate.

 

Please take a look at Shaun Kings social media posts on Instagram to see the dead bodies.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

X is an unknown quantity

Spurt is a drip under pressure.

 

What qualifies a person to be an expert on something ?

A master's , a PHD, a lifetime of researching and studying a subject with no letters after your name ? 

 

Sure sometimes. E.g we have seen posts with satellite photos and I know people with no training cant  accurately assess those. Same goes for many subjects.

 

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

What I trust is my ability to research a subject, my ability to think critically about it, recognise that I am fallible, then come to a conclusion 

 

Agreed totally. Part of that critical assessment is evaluating the sources. For me, I am highly suspect of numbers from Hamas controlled agencies. That seems reasonable to me that we'd need their information independently verified by a group with less of an agenda. 

 

It's always worth asking who has what to gain from the info that they put out .

Edited November 6, 2023 by Bob Long

[Super19]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

Sure sometimes. E.g we have seen posts with satellite photos and I know people with no training can accurately assess those. Same goes for many subjects.

 

 

Agreed totally. Part of that critical assessment is evaluating the sources. For me, I am highly suspect of numbers from Hamas controlled agencies. They seems reasonable to me that we'd need their information independently verified by a group with less of an agenda. 

 

 

You realize with all this collective punishment and collateral damage, and electricity issues it makes it very hard for journalists to do their job in Gaza right now? Entire families of journalists have already been killed since Oct 7. It's so dangerous, because Gaza is being carpet bombed amd destroyed.

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

In the cases we do know so far all we know is that the media doesn't know, and the media have just set a floor to 'at least' a portion of what was initially said out of Gaza.

Mind you there's bodies under rubble not found, and while th3 minute by minute numbers may not be correct, the Health Authority verifies each dead in the morgue with a name in the records and virtually everyone besides Biden and Israel accept it.

 

But no one is in a position to know the numbers are accurate yet. You want me to believe Hamas?

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

You realize with all this collective punishment and collateral damage, and electricity issues it makes it very hard for journalists to do their job in Gaza right now? Entire families of journalists have already been killed since Oct 7. It's so dangerous, because Gaza is being carpet bombed amd destroyed.

 

No it's not been carpet bombed. 

 

Hamas is still firing rockets. If they cared at all about Palestinians they would stop. 

[Super19]

A speaker sayings words to the 300,000 person protest in DC this weekend

 

 

[moosehead]

‘Accusing Israel of apartheid is not anti-Semitic’: Holocaust historian

A growing number of Jewish academics are using the term apartheid to describe Israel’s treatment of Palestinians.

 

Amos Goldberg, a leading professor of the Holocaust at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, has published a scathing retort saying that describing Israel’s treatment of Palestinians as “apartheid” is not anti-Semitic,

 

 

The Israeli government, Goldberg stated, fights against human rights, democracy and equality and propagates the opposite: “authoritarianism, discrimination, racism and apartheid”.

 

“Accusing Israel of apartheid is not anti-Semitic. It describes reality,” he said.

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/27/accusing-israel-of-apartheid-is-not-anti-semitic-holocaust-historian

[Elias Pettersson]

Muslims in Germany are getting ready to take over the country.  The dream of Hamas for a world caliphate...

 

 

[Super19]

16 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Muslims in Germany are getting ready to take over the country.  The dream of Hamas for a world caliphate...

 

 

Israelis in New York are ready to destroy Palestine and kill all Palestinians.

 

 

[CBH1926]

Came across a video of Hamas trying to behead injured Thai man with a garden hoe.

Some sick fucks inhibit this planet indeed.

 

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

Sure sometimes. E.g we have seen posts with satellite photos and I know people with no training cant  accurately assess those. Same goes for many subjects.

 

 

Agreed totally. Part of that critical assessment is evaluating the sources. For me, I am highly suspect of numbers from Hamas controlled agencies. That seems reasonable to me that we'd need their information independently verified by a group with less of an agenda. 

 

It's always worth asking who has what to gain from the info that they put out .

 

Not saying I am totally educated in reading sattelite images however ever since they have been available online in relation to weather, I have accessed them regularly and have been taught and learnt to read them reasonably competently, ski- bum / farmer.

The BOM weather radar I have on my phone is freakin awesome for being able to see when the rain is coming and save myself getting wet. 

 

I have already stated my basic 3 bullshit detectors which cover the points you make. 

 

As far as I am concerned those videos/ stories I post are real information from the source.

Real people telling their stories accompanied by video footage of the situation in the occupied territories. 

 

As for Hamas I don't believe much of the information they put out there. 

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

A speaker sayings words to the 300,000 person protest in DC this weekend

 

 

 

Over the years that I have been a member of this and the old board I have brought up the fact that after the holocaust the world promised we would never let that happen again.

As I have often pointed out there has been over half dozen genocides since WW2.

 

I do not believe that Isreal is committing genocide on the Palestinian people.

 

Words have meanings 

Genocide

The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. 

 

There are 5.35 million Palestinians in the state of Palestine, quick google search. 

 

There are a few different figures however what I come up with is in the last 15 years 6,407 have been killed, in the last 20 a bit over 10,000 up until the current conflict.

If you do believe Hamas and it's figure of 10,000 or so in the last month, over 5million people, 10,000 killed in the

last month, 20,000 since 2,000. 

Does this look like the Isrealis are trying to destroy that ethnic group ?

 

While I mourn the deaths of the innocents, those figures certainly prove that Isreal is not committing genocide. 

 

Just because a person claims something in front of hundreds of thousands of people does not make what he is claiming true.

[Gurn]

8 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Yes, how do we know what's accurate? 

 

Am I supposed to believe the group that attacked on Oct 7? Does that seem reasonable?

Or should I believe  another group, that also will not abide by U.N resolutions, and continues to turf people from their own lands?

 

Or perhaps, and stay with me for a bit, maybe believe all sides are full of crap?

 

[CBH1926]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Over the years that I have been a member of this and the old board I have brought up the fact that after the holocaust the world promised we would never let that happen again.

As I have often pointed out there has been over half dozen genocides since WW2.

 

I do not believe that Isreal is committing genocide on the Palestinian people.

 

Words have meanings 

Genocide

The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. 

 

There are 5.35 million Palestinians in the state of Palestine, quick google search. 

 

There are a few different figures however what I come up with is in the last 15 years 6,407 have been killed, in the last 20 a bit over 10,000 up until the current conflict.

If you do believe Hamas and it's figure of 10,000 or so in the last month, over 5million people, 10,000 killed in the

last month, 20,000 since 2,000. 

Does this look like the Isrealis are trying to destroy that ethnic group ?

 

While I mourn the deaths of the innocents, those figures certainly prove that Isreal is not committing genocide. 

 

Just because a person claims something in front of hundreds of thousands of people does not make what he is claiming true.

Just like word racism and nazism are thrown around indiscriminately, word genocide is getting the same treatment.

What happened to Tutsis, Armenians, Darfuri, Cherkess, Cambodians etc. is a genocide.

 

 

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Gurn said:

Or should I believe  another group, that also will not abide by U.N resolutions, and continues to turf people from their own lands?

 

Or perhaps, and stay with me for a bit, maybe believe all sides are full of crap?

 

 

For sure there can be bs all around.

 

What I think is a major problem though is our instant anger culture. Get mad first and ask questions later. Maybe .

[Bob Long]

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Not saying I am totally educated in reading sattelite images however ever since they have been available online in relation to weather, I have accessed them regularly and have been taught and learnt to read them reasonably competently, ski- bum / farmer.

The BOM weather radar I have on my phone is freakin awesome for being able to see when the rain is coming and save myself getting wet. 

 

I have already stated my basic 3 bullshit detectors which cover the points you make. 

 

As far as I am concerned those videos/ stories I post are real information from the source.

Real people telling their stories accompanied by video footage of the situation in the occupied territories. 

 

Those videos are great from the pov it gives a viewer time to think about the issue.

 

There's something about the immediate dopamine hit of social media that makes us collectively more willing to join a mob mentality and not bother with a deeper look like in the videos you share.

 

I also dislike being instantly "sided" - nothing about Israel is that simple.

 

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

As for Hamas I don't believe much of the information they put out there. 

 

 

That's it, how can you? Particularly in the middle of things going on. 

[Bob Long]

24 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Just like word racism and nazism are thrown around indiscriminately, word genocide is getting the same treatment.

What happened to Tutsis, Armenians, Darfuri, Cherkess, Cambodians etc. is a genocide.

 

 

 

When I see these posts it reminds me of the old joke question "when did you stop beating your wife?". So many of these tweets are designed to manipulate. If I don't instantly agree or get upset then I'm an amoral monster.

[RomanPer]

21 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

When I see these posts it reminds me of the old joke question "when did you stop beating your wife?". So many of these tweets are designed to manipulate. If I don't instantly agree or get upset then I'm an amoral monster.

 

There’s another one, more humane - “Did you stop drinking cognac in the mornings?”

[moosehead]

 

'We are failing again': UN, US resignations highlight splits over Israel's Gaza assault

While many Western leaders and officials were quick to express their support for Israel in its war against Hamas, there have been signs of dissent in senior US and UN circles over the West’s unwavering backing of Israel's massive retaliatory bombardments on Gaza. Some have even quit their posts.

When Craig Mokhiber, director of the New York office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, quit his job in protest over Israel’s bombardment of Gaza, his resignation letter citing the West’s "complicity" in a “genocide unfolding before our eyes” immediately went viral on social media sites.

Mokhiber's resignation followed that of US State Department official Josh Paul, who was the director of congressional and public affairs for the State Department’s Bureau of Political-Military Affairs for more than 11 years.

In his October 28 letter to Volker Türk, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mokhiber explained that he was stepping down in protest over the "genocide unfolding before our eyes" in Gaza.

 

"The current wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people, rooted in an ethno-nationalist settler colonial ideology, in continuation of decades of their systematic persecution and purging [...], coupled with explicit statements of intent by leaders in the Israeli government and military, leaves no room for doubt or debate," wrote Mokhiber, a US human rights lawyer who joined the UN in 1992 and has served in several conflict zones, including the Palestinian Territories, Afghanistan and Sudan.

 

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231105-we-are-failing-again-un-us-resignations-highlight-splits-over-israel-s-gaza-assault

[moosehead]

Part 2

 

Citing the UN's failure to prevent "genocides against the Tutsis, Bosnian Muslims, the Yazidi and the Rohingya", Mokhiber added a stark warning to the UN's top human rights official. "High Commissioner, we are failing again," he said in a letter that did not mention the October 7 Hamas attack that marked the start of the latest cycle of violence.

 

 

Mokhiber also mentioned the "complicity" of Western governments in Israel's offensive in Gaza.

"Not only are these governments refusing to meet their treaty obligations ‘to ensure respect’ for the Geneva Conventions, but they are in fact actively arming the assault, providing economic and intelligence support, and giving political and diplomatic cover for Israel’s atrocities," he said.

[moosehead]

For those that support the  Israeli IDF ground invasion / mass indiscriminate  bombing  campaign in Gaza

 

 

Tough decision for this family

 

Vancouver man’s family in Gaza ponders whether to stay together so they die together

 

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-man-family-gaza-israel-hamas-war

Edited November 6, 2023 by moosehead

[Satchmo]

When I was growing up my parents had a big coffee table book full of New Yorker cartoons.  I truly wish I still had it.

 

Many of the back & forth volleys of videos and news clippings in this thread remind me of one 3 panel cartoon in particular.   

 

A guy is sitting in an easy chair watching football on tv. The caption has the tv announcer say '5 minutes to go in the final quarter and the Bulldogs are up by 11.'

The guy frowns and reaches over to change the channel.

The guy is smiling and the caption reads 'The game is all but over and Ole Miss is really trouncing the Bulldogs.'

 

My point?  If you look hard enough you can find somebody saying just about anything.  If you disagree with what they say you can just keep looking.