Hamas attacking Israel

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, moosehead said:

Part 2

 

Citing the UN's failure to prevent "genocides against the Tutsis, Bosnian Muslims, the Yazidi and the Rohingya", Mokhiber added a stark warning to the UN's top human rights official. "High Commissioner, we are failing again," he said in a letter that did not mention the October 7 Hamas attack that marked the start of the latest cycle of violence.

 

 

Mokhiber also mentioned the "complicity" of Western governments in Israel's offensive in Gaza.

"Not only are these governments refusing to meet their treaty obligations ‘to ensure respect’ for the Geneva Conventions, but they are in fact actively arming the assault, providing economic and intelligence support, and giving political and diplomatic cover for Israel’s atrocities," he said.

The United Nations is an abject failure. 

[RomanPer]

Here’s a video from Gaza. People speak Hebrew, so I’ll translate - this is a rocket firing station build under a mosque in Gaza, capable of firing 5 rockets at a time and fire twice almost immediately. Direction of the attack is north, towards Ashkelon, Ashdod and Tel Aviv. Single launch can send up to 2 million people into shelters. Also, due to its structure, it’s impossible to detect from air until after the launch. I’d like to hear the opinion of the couch keyboard warriors on how to neutralize such sites without destroying the mosque.

 

 

[moosehead]

Doctors without Borders....

 

Millions of men, women and children are facing a collective punishment in the form of total siege, indiscriminate bombing, and the pending threat of a ground battle. Safe spaces must be established, humanitarian supplies must be allowed into Gaza. The wounded and sick must receive medical care. Medical facilities and personnel must be protected and respected; hospitals and ambulances are not targets.

 

The siege imposed by the Israeli government, including the withholding of food, water, fuel and electricity is unconscionable. Following 16 years of military blockade on the Gaza strip, the medical structures within are already weakened; this siege leaves no respite for patients caught up in the fighting, nor for medical staff. It represents an intentional block on life-saving items; the entry of these supplies and key medical staff must be facilitated urgently.

 

https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/msf-indiscriminate-violence-and-the-collective-punishment-of-gaza-must-cease/

 

[Optimist Prime]

11 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

IDF has captured about 25 square KM's of 'northern gaza' with another 75 square km's to go. 

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

IDF has captured about 25 square KM's of 'northern gaza' with another 75 square km's to go. 

 

I hope they can let more aid into the south once they take control of this area. Seems to be going quite quickly thankfully.

[Satchmo]

35 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

The United Nations is an abject failure. 

I think it's faulty by design.

 

It reminds me of someone.  It's pretty good at the little things but needs an empty net if it wants to score.

[Optimist Prime]

23 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I hope they can let more aid into the south once they take control of this area. Seems to be going quite quickly thankfully.

just from eyeballing it, of the 75 square km still controlled by Hamas in the North, 30 of them are likely very quickly taken, fields and low level built up areas. 45 of the square km's are in urban highly built up areas. Remember seeing the roughly three blocks wide and ten blocks long completely devastated section of Gaza? I believe that was battlefield preparation so they can assault the blocks on the fringe of that and have a de facto 'break' from the house to house urban warfare. So i would look to see the IDF take full charge of the fields and low camps/towns quickly, then more slowly take and hold the blocks 'outside' the levellled 30 block zone in Gaza City, and at that time, there would be around 25 square km's of Hamas controlled area left in the north. Timelines thus far suggest in a month, that is what we will be looking at. I am hopeful it is sooner. I am also hopeful that once the bulk of the fields and outlying low built up areas are 100% under IDF control, at that time I would hope that civilians will be allowed to cross the IDF lines, thouroughly vetted of course, and be taken to new aid camps set up most likely in those fields. 

[RomanPer]

Just to show that simplification of the problem ("remove settlers, stop the violence") will not lead to any solution. Please watch this video. How can any peace agreement be reached when so many people only know partial history and have one-sided education on the subject? People in the video saying "Jews from Europe and US are travelers, they are not from this land". How many generations back should we go to determine who has the right of return and who doesn't? Palestinians know that 700,000 Palestinians were refugees in 1948 but want all their descendants (count in millions) to have a right of return. In this case, how is it different for all the descendants of the Jews who were refugees from the same land a thousand years ago? Why is 1948 more significant than 63 BCE or 638? I'm also pretty sure that if the opposite question was asked on the Israeli side, the answers would correspond to the level of education of the person answering the question. But I did see some sort of light at the end of the tunnel from 3 people in this video (I think it'll be pretty self-explanatory which ones once you watch it)

 

[4petesake]

2 hours ago, Satchmo said:

When I was growing up my parents had a big coffee table book full of New Yorker cartoons.  I truly wish I still had it.

 

Many of the back & forth volleys of videos and news clippings in this thread remind me of one 3 panel cartoon in particular.   

 

A guy is sitting in an easy chair watching football on tv. The caption has the tv announcer say '5 minutes to go in the final quarter and the Bulldogs are up by 11.'

The guy frowns and reaches over to change the channel.

The guy is smiling and the caption reads 'The game is all but over and Ole Miss is really trouncing the Bulldogs.'

 

My point?  If you look hard enough you can find somebody saying just about anything.  If you disagree with what they say you can just keep looking.  

 

 

[Canuckle]

On 11/2/2023 at 3:07 PM, Warhippy said:

Respectfully.  Lemkin defines genocide as including the destruction of a nation and not just the forcible murder or sterilization of a people or culture.

 

By stating Israel should not exist or suggesting it be removed you also are promoting or suggesting genocide of a sort.  Whether it is semantics or not is immaterial.

 

Which is a complete misreading and misrepresentation of what was being said.

 

A state is a social construct.

 

What person or people is being ethnically cleansed with the absence of a state appartus and state authority?

 

Nobody.

 

Sociologist Max Weber describes the state as any organization that succeeds in holding the exclusive right to use, threaten, or authorize physical force against residents of its territory. Such a monopoly, according to Weber, must occur via a process of legitimation.

 

In political philosophy, a monopoly on violence or monopoly on the legal use of force is the property of a polity that is the only entity in its jurisdiction to legitimately use force, and thus the supreme authority of that area.

 

While the monopoly on violence as the defining conception of the state was first described in sociology by Max Weber in his essay Politics as a Vocation (1919), the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force is a core concept of modern public law, which goes back to French jurist and political philosopher Jean Bodin's 1576 work Les Six livres de la République and English philosopher Thomas Hobbes' 1651 book Leviathan. Weber claims that the state is the "only human Gemeinschaft which lays claim to the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force. As such, states can resort to coercive means such as incarceration, expropriation, humiliation, and death threats to obtain the population's compliance with its rule and thus maintain order. However, this monopoly is limited to a certain geographical area, and in fact this limitation to a particular area is one of the things that defines a state.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

 

And once again I will state I am anarchist. This is important to note. For those that do not know, Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is skeptical of all justifications for authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including nation-states, and capitalism.

 

Anarchism advocates for the replacement of the state with stateless societies and voluntary free associations. As a historically left-wing movement, this reading of anarchism is placed on the farthest left of the political spectrum, usually described as the libertarian wing of the socialist movement (libertarian socialism).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

 

 

As for the false claims of antisemitism levied against me, there are Jewish people that advocate against the Zionist Israeli state just the same. They must be antisemitic to... themselves? 

 

Absolute Nonsense.

 

"Anarchism has been an undercurrent in the politics of Palestine and Israel for over a century. The anarchist ideology arrived in Palestine at the beginning of the 20th century, carried by a big wave of emigrants from Eastern Europe (Russia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Poland). The ideas of Peter Kropotkin and Leo Tolstoy had remarkable influence on famous exponents of some Left Zionists. Anarchists organized themselves across Israel and Palestine, and influenced the worker movement in Israel. Anarchists often call for a zero state solution, to the Palestinian Israeli conflict, in reference to a complete abolition of the states of Israel and Palestine."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Israel

 

 

@Ribs@Sharpshooter

 

I should hope this is clarification enough?

Edited November 6, 2023 by Canuckle

[Canuckle]

Rallies supporting Palestinians took place around the world over the weekend.

 

 

 

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Which is a complete misreading and misrepresentation of what was being said.

 

A state is a social construct.

 

What person or people is being ethnically cleansed with the absence of a state appartus and state authority?

 

Nobody.

 

Sociologist Max Weber describes the state as any organization that succeeds in holding the exclusive right to use, threaten, or authorize physical force against residents of its territory. Such a monopoly, according to Weber, must occur via a process of legitimation.

 

In political philosophy, a monopoly on violence or monopoly on the legal use of force is the property of a polity that is the only entity in its jurisdiction to legitimately use force, and thus the supreme authority of that area.

 

While the monopoly on violence as the defining conception of the state was first described in sociology by Max Weber in his essay Politics as a Vocation (1919), the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force is a core concept of modern public law, which goes back to French jurist and political philosopher Jean Bodin's 1576 work Les Six livres de la République and English philosopher Thomas Hobbes' 1651 book Leviathan. Weber claims that the state is the "only human Gemeinschaft which lays claim to the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force. As such, states can resort to coercive means such as incarceration, expropriation, humiliation, and death threats to obtain the population's compliance with its rule and thus maintain order. However, this monopoly is limited to a certain geographical area, and in fact this limitation to a particular area is one of the things that defines a state.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

 

And once I will state I am anarchist. This is important to note. For those that do not know, Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is skeptical of all justifications for authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including nation-states, and capitalism.

 

Anarchism advocates for the replacement of the state with stateless societies and voluntary free associations. As a historically left-wing movement, this reading of anarchism is placed on the farthest left of the political spectrum, usually described as the libertarian wing of the socialist movement (libertarian socialism).

 

As for the false claims of antisemitism levied against me, there are Jewish people that advocate against the Zionist Israeli state just the same. They must be antisemitic to... themselves? 

 

Absolute Nonsense.

 

"Anarchism has been an undercurrent in the politics of Palestine and Israel for over a century. The anarchist ideology arrived in Palestine at the beginning of the 20th century, carried by a big wave of emigrants from Eastern Europe (Russia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Poland). The ideas of Peter Kropotkin and Leo Tolstoy had remarkable influence on famous exponents of some Left Zionists. Anarchists organized themselves across Israel and Palestine, and influenced the worker movement in Israel. Anarchists often call for a zero state solution, to the Palestinian Israeli conflict, in reference to a complete abolition of the states of Israel and Palestine."

 

@Ribs@Sharpshooter

 

I should hope this is clarification enough?

I never called you anti semitic.  I merely pointed out that in calling for a nation to cease existing it roughly fits one of the 5-6 major descriptors of what was discussed nothing more.

 

My position has always been one of middle ground and pointing out the hyopcrisy of people willing to ignoree the evils they champion on their team while being outraged at those same evils because the other team is committing to them.  or partisanship.

[The Arrogant Worms]

SEND IN THE HOUNDS

Israel to deploy ferocious attack dogs to maul Hamas tunnel terrorists as training vid shows hound on rampage

 

https://www.the-sun.com/news/9553820/israel-attack-dogs-hamas-tunnel/

[Satchmo]

40 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Which is a complete misreading and misrepresentation of what was being said.

 

A state is a social construct.

 

What person or people is being ethnically cleansed with the absence of a state appartus and state authority?

 

Nobody.

 

Sociologist Max Weber describes the state as any organization that succeeds in holding the exclusive right to use, threaten, or authorize physical force against residents of its territory. Such a monopoly, according to Weber, must occur via a process of legitimation.

 

In political philosophy, a monopoly on violence or monopoly on the legal use of force is the property of a polity that is the only entity in its jurisdiction to legitimately use force, and thus the supreme authority of that area.

 

While the monopoly on violence as the defining conception of the state was first described in sociology by Max Weber in his essay Politics as a Vocation (1919), the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force is a core concept of modern public law, which goes back to French jurist and political philosopher Jean Bodin's 1576 work Les Six livres de la République and English philosopher Thomas Hobbes' 1651 book Leviathan. Weber claims that the state is the "only human Gemeinschaft which lays claim to the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force. As such, states can resort to coercive means such as incarceration, expropriation, humiliation, and death threats to obtain the population's compliance with its rule and thus maintain order. However, this monopoly is limited to a certain geographical area, and in fact this limitation to a particular area is one of the things that defines a state.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

 

And once again I will state I am anarchist. This is important to note. For those that do not know, Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is skeptical of all justifications for authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including nation-states, and capitalism.

 

Anarchism advocates for the replacement of the state with stateless societies and voluntary free associations. As a historically left-wing movement, this reading of anarchism is placed on the farthest left of the political spectrum, usually described as the libertarian wing of the socialist movement (libertarian socialism).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

 

 

As for the false claims of antisemitism levied against me, there are Jewish people that advocate against the Zionist Israeli state just the same. They must be antisemitic to... themselves? 

 

Absolute Nonsense.

 

"Anarchism has been an undercurrent in the politics of Palestine and Israel for over a century. The anarchist ideology arrived in Palestine at the beginning of the 20th century, carried by a big wave of emigrants from Eastern Europe (Russia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Poland). The ideas of Peter Kropotkin and Leo Tolstoy had remarkable influence on famous exponents of some Left Zionists. Anarchists organized themselves across Israel and Palestine, and influenced the worker movement in Israel. Anarchists often call for a zero state solution, to the Palestinian Israeli conflict, in reference to a complete abolition of the states of Israel and Palestine."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Israel

 

 

@Ribs@Sharpshooter

 

I should hope this is clarification enough?

So the argument regarding how it's ok for you to say Israel should not exist is because you think no nation should exist?  

 

And fuck Zionism is ok too?    I don't agree with all things Zionist but that's a bit harsh and seemed to have been said in an immense rage. 

 

You said it all.  You were banned for a while.   Welcome back.  Please remember we have a dedicated thread for political philosophy.

 

Not promising to respond if you do...

[Canuckle]

On 11/2/2023 at 4:39 PM, Taxi said:

Interesting, so you acknowledge that genocide of the First Nations people is worse than what has gone on in Israel thus far (as the genocide you are stating is going on hasn't happened yet anyways). 

 

Does that mean you don't have a right to exist, as a non-indigenous Canadian, on land belonging to indigenous people. Or do you just apply these rules to other people and not yourself? And if so, why those people and not you.

 

BTW, this is just a hypothetical based on your argument. I think both Israel and Canada have a right to exist, mostly because they already do. 

 

Genocide is absolutely going on in Palestine, perpetrated by the Israeli state. There is no 'better' or 'worse' as is this not a competition of suffering.

 

"Does that mean you don't have a right to exist, as a non-indigenous Canadian, on land belonging to indigenous people. Or do you just apply these rules to other people and not yourself? And if so, why those people and not you."

 

A good question for Israeli state officials, that's for sure. You just nailed the premise.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Canuckle

[Optimist Prime]

46 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

SEND IN THE HOUNDS

Israel to deploy ferocious attack dogs to maul Hamas tunnel terrorists as training vid shows hound on rampage

 

https://www.the-sun.com/news/9553820/israel-attack-dogs-hamas-tunnel/

[Super19]

 

4 hours ago, RomanPer said:

Here’s a video from Gaza. People speak Hebrew, so I’ll translate - this is a rocket firing station build under a mosque in Gaza, capable of firing 5 rockets at a time and fire twice almost immediately. Direction of the attack is north, towards Ashkelon, Ashdod and Tel Aviv. Single launch can send up to 2 million people into shelters. Also, due to its structure, it’s impossible to detect from air until after the launch. I’d like to hear the opinion of the couch keyboard warriors on how to neutralize such sites without destroying the mosque.

 

 

 

[Canuckle]

46 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

So the argument regarding how it's ok for you to say Israel should not exist is because you think no nation should exist?  

 

And fuck Zionism is ok too?    I don't agree with all things Zionist but that's a bit harsh and seemed to have been said in an immense rage. 

 

You said it all.  You were banned for a while.   Welcome back.  Please remember we have a dedicated thread for political philosophy.

 

Not promising to respond if you do...

 

Yes, we have a dedicated thread to discuss political philosophy itself. ie. unpack how X works, what the ideas are.

 

But does that mean I can make no mention of the perspective to which my arguments are based?

 

Are we only allowed to share status quo views and subsequent arguments rooted in things like liberalism, or even statism? Those are certainly normative views to which many say what they say, whether they realize it or not.  ie. Ideology.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology

 

 

Either way, yes. I do not believe states, capitalism, or any other hierarchical institution of authority should exist-- Archy in all their forms whether patriarchy or anything else.

 

Note: I do not say "fuck zionism" with any rage... or much emotion at all really? Hmm... looking back here I suppose using capital letters to say it was a mistake if that's how it came across? Either way, I still 100% stand behind the words. Hopefully my explanation helps illuminate why I say it. Fuck Zionism, indeed.

 

As for the claim "one is antisemitic for being anti-zionist, "critics of the concept have suggested that the characterization of anti-Zionism as antisemitic is inaccurate, sometimes obscures legitimate criticism of Israel's policies and actions and trivializes antisemitism. Professor David Myers says that the equation should not be made without "careful contextualization and delineation"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism

 

Case in point.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Canuckle

[Super19]

14 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Over the years that I have been a member of this and the old board I have brought up the fact that after the holocaust the world promised we would never let that happen again.

As I have often pointed out there has been over half dozen genocides since WW2.

 

I do not believe that Isreal is committing genocide on the Palestinian people.

 

Words have meanings 

Genocide

The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. 

 

There are 5.35 million Palestinians in the state of Palestine, quick google search. 

 

There are a few different figures however what I come up with is in the last 15 years 6,407 have been killed, in the last 20 a bit over 10,000 up until the current conflict.

If you do believe Hamas and it's figure of 10,000 or so in the last month, over 5million people, 10,000 killed in the

last month, 20,000 since 2,000. 

Does this look like the Isrealis are trying to destroy that ethnic group ?

 

While I mourn the deaths of the innocents, those figures certainly prove that Isreal is not committing genocide. 

 

Just because a person claims something in front of hundreds of thousands of people does not make what he is claiming true.

1% of Gaza has died in one month.

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Super19 said:

1% of Gaza has died in one month.

 

You don't know that. Please show us the independent confirmation.

[Bob Long]

41 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Genocide is absolutely going on in Palestine, perpetrated by the Israeli state. There is no 'better' or 'worse as is this not a competition of suffering.

 

"Does that mean you don't have a right to exist, as a non-indigenous Canadian, on land belonging to indigenous people. Or do you just apply these rules to other people and not yourself? And if so, why those people and not you."

 

A good question for Israeli state officials, that's for sure. You just nailed the premise.

 

 

So if you are correct, Hamas also attempted genocide on Israelis.

[Satchmo]

7 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Yes, we have a dedicated thread to discuss political philosophy itself. ie. unpack how X works, what the ideas are.

 

But does that mean I can make no mention of the perspective to which my arguments are based?

 

Are we only allowed to share status quo views and subsequent arguments rooted in things like liberalism, or even statism? Those are certainly normative views to which many say what they say, whether they realize it or not.  Ie. Ideology.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology

 

Either way, yes. I do not believe states, capitalism, or any other hierarchical institution of authority should exist-- Archy in all their forms whether patriarchy or anything else.

 

Note: I do not say "fuck zionism" with any rage... or much emotion at all really? Hmm... looking back here I suppose using capital letters to say it was a mistake if that's how it came across? Either way, I still 100% stand behind the words. Hopefully my explanation helps illuminate why I say it. Fuck Zionism, indeed.

 

As for the claim "one is antisemitic for being anti-zionist, "critics of the concept have suggested that the characterization of anti-Zionism as antisemitic is inaccurate, sometimes obscures legitimate criticism of Israel's policies and actions and trivializes antisemitism. Professor David Myers says that the equation should not be made without "careful contextualization and delineation"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism

 

Case in point.

 

 

I don't know. I'm afraid you are just going to have to ask somebody else.

[Super19]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

You don't know that. Please show us the independent confirmation.

It's not my fault you don't accept numbers that even the UN agrees with.

 

70 UN collegues and over 20 journalists died, you don't believe that? Guess who reported that?

[Satchmo]

Just now, Super19 said:

It's not my fault you don't accept numbers that even the UN agrees with.

 

70 UN collegues and over 20 journalists died, you don't believe that? Guess who reported that?

Why the fixation over exact quantities?   

 

I ask that as a numbers oriented person who love to know exact amounts.  It just seems to me that for now there are more important things to talk about.

[Optimist Prime]

12 minutes ago, Super19 said:

1% of Gaza has died in one month.

your math skills are in need of sharpening; using your logic and notes, but with proper math it is less than 0.5%, still horrible, but you have more than doubled the actual %, and as noted: these numbers originate from Hamas, and are not trustworthy.