Bob Long Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 5 minutes ago, Satchmo said: If that is your main point, then run with it. You may find more people agreeing with you. As it is, you seem to be just bouncing from one thing to another as long as it is anti Israel. Some people live in the world they want to see, others as it actually is (or at least as close as one can with imperfect info). I see a lot of aspirational critique going on, that has little resemblance to what we see on the ground. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Satchmo said: If that is your main point, then run with it. You may find more people agreeing with you. As it is, you seem to be just bouncing from one thing to another as long as it is anti Israel. Is it fair to compare Israeli government Oppression to Russia ,. North Korea, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Syria, Iran and the US That is quite the group...... 15 UN resolutions for Israel and only 1 for Russia..... wow..... NEW YORK — The United Nations General Assembly passed more resolutions critical of Israel than against all other nations combined in 2022, contributing to what observers call an ongoing lopsided focus on the Jewish state at the world body. The General Assembly approved 15 anti-Israel resolutions last year, versus 13 resolutions criticizing other countries, according to a tally by the pro-Israel monitoring group UN Watch. Russia was the focus of six resolutions condemning its invasion of Ukraine. North Korea, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Syria, Iran and the US were hit with one resolution each. https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-condemned-israel-more-than-all-other-countries-combined-in-2022-monitor/ Edited November 7, 2023 by moosehead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) Killing / Murdering civilians is a war crime... Really hoping we see Israel politicians and senior IDF staff charged with War Crimes. Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) calls for an immediate ceasefire to prevent more deaths in Gaza and allow desperately needed humanitarian supplies in. Since Oct. 27, the bombing by the Israeli forces has intensified to a degree not seen until now: northern Gaza is being razed to the ground, while the whole Strip is being hit and civilians have no place to take shelter. The actions of world leaders are too weak, too slow, as a non-binding UN resolution for a humanitarian truce has done nothing to reign in the indiscriminate violence unleashed on a helpless people. The international community must take stronger action to urge Israel to stop the bloodshed. People are being killed and forcibly displaced from their homes, and water and fuel are running low. The atrocity is on a scale never seen before in Gaza. Hospitals are running out of medical supplies. Earlier this week, Dr. Mohammed Obeid, our surgeon in Gaza described the following, “Hospitals are flooded with patients, amputations and surgeries are being carried out without proper anesthesia, and morgues are flooded with dead bodies”. https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/msf-immediate-ceasefire-is-needed-in-gaza-to-stop-the-bloodshed/ Edited November 7, 2023 by moosehead 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 3 hours ago, moosehead said: Are you saying Israel offer to re-settle all Palestinians that have been booted off their lands ? Is this what you are saying ? Have the Arab and Muslim nations ever offered to compensate the Jews thrown from their lands? Following multiple wars initiated by the Arabs, the boundaries changed. You can keep trying to undo the war, and its resulting population transfer, or you can actually work towards a peace settlement. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, moosehead said: You are bouncing around one thing to another .... Check out the Times from Israel.... The world is actually pretty together on its views... even if you personally think differently... Russia was the focus of six resolutions condemning its invasion of Ukraine. North Korea, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Syria, Iran and the US - 1 each NEW YORK — The United Nations General Assembly passed more resolutions critical of Israel than against all other nations combined in 2022, contributing to what observers call an ongoing lopsided focus on the Jewish state at the world body. The General Assembly approved 15 anti-Israel resolutions last year, versus 13 resolutions criticizing other countries, according to a tally by the pro-Israel monitoring group UN Watch. Russia was the focus of six resolutions condemning its invasion of Ukraine. North Korea, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Syria, Iran and the US were hit with one resolution each. https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-condemned-israel-more-than-all-other-countries-combined-in-2022-monitor/ I know. Israel's popularity has taken a hit. I'm not bouncing anywhere. I am NOT voicing full support for Israel. I am NOT opposed to saving lives, either Palestinian or Israeli. I AM opposed to Hamas and feel some people are NOT taking the horrors they have committed into account. (is horror blindness a valid term? Horror selectivity?). I'd truly like to see a change in Israel's government and practices, and almost any form of democratic government in Palestine. Peace for Palestine and Israel. I'm not going to say death to Hamas (but it's tempting.) Edited November 7, 2023 by Satchmo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Arrogant Worms Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Israel-Gaza war: Assassination attempt on Palestine president Mahmoud Abbas kills one https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/117618/assassination-palestine-president-Mahmoud-Abbas One of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' bodyguards was shot dead in an assassination attempt on the leader after he was given a 24-hour ultimatum by the "Sons of Abu Jandal" to declare a "global war" against Israel. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, Taxi said: Have the Arab and Muslim nations ever offered to compensate the Jews thrown from their lands? Following multiple wars initiated by the Arabs, the boundaries changed. You can keep trying to undo the war, and its resulting population transfer, or you can actually work towards a peace settlement. Which Palestinian lands threw Jewish people off of them ? Do you see any possible peace plan that does not remedy some of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that were evicted from their land / homes ? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said: Israel-Gaza war: Assassination attempt on Palestine president Mahmoud Abbas 4 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said: Israel-Gaza war: Assassination attempt on Palestine president Mahmoud Abbas kills one https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/117618/assassination-palestine-president-Mahmoud-Abbas One of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' bodyguards was shot dead in an assassination attempt on the leader after he was given a 24-hour ultimatum by the "Sons of Abu Jandal" to declare a "global war" against Israel. Sadly the region has a history on both sides of the conflict of assassinating moderate leaders... On the evening of 4 November 1995 (12th of Heshvan on the Hebrew Calendar[67]), Rabin was assassinated by Yigal Amir, a right-wing extremist who opposed the signing of the Oslo Accords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Zionism is not the same as Judaism --Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 4 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said: Israel-Gaza war: Assassination attempt on Palestine president Mahmoud Abbas kills one https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/117618/assassination-palestine-president-Mahmoud-Abbas One of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' bodyguards was shot dead in an assassination attempt on the leader after he was given a 24-hour ultimatum by the "Sons of Abu Jandal" to declare a "global war" against Israel. I'd like to add this to the list of things I am aware of that I made in preceding post. a 24-hour ultimatum by the "Sons of Abu Jandal" to declare a "global war" against Israel. Despite my misgivings of Israel's government, we must all keep in mind what what they must keep in mind is that they are surrounded by so many who want them dead. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoshiyoshi Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Regardless of who is right or wrong in this conflict, there cant be any peace talks until Hamas releases their hostages. So really its on them and the Palestinian people to take the first step here. If Hamas wont release them and Palestinians wont rat them out then all Israel can do is what they are doing. Anything less will just lead to more attacks on Israel. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 7 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: Reputable scholars from where about Hamas; Al Azhar University? I am being sarcastic, even top Islamic colleges suggest, perhaps, you don't understand. Hamas has a standing claim, since their induction. Not just a justification? An obligation of every Mozlem to remove the state of Israel from existence. For all the rhetoric about Israeli crimes, their 'genocidal' activities'. Claims that Israel in parts are very real. It makes no difference, zero to Hamas! Israel has no right to exist as it does. Its based on religion; 1500 years ago Muhammad rose from the West Bank. No one else has the right to live in Palestine? When they study history, scripture. Islamic & Muslim academics. This is a conclusion referred. Yet most scholars, even in Arabic, Islamic, Muslim universities, would never report, suggest that death, killing, war is the way to find respectful prayer for what you believe in. That other religions, traditions do not have a right to exist. This bend of history, higher learning as you call it, is doctrine of Hamas. Scholars, hell the UN, question settlements and international borders. I agree with these concerns. Even those scholars do not agree with Hamas. In a multicultural world, for example in Canada, the rights of different religions are respected, protected. 1500 years before Muhammad this was a site holy to Jews. 500 years before a holy land for Christians, Jesus was born in the West Bank. Yeah, dudn't matter bro. GTFO... Israel is commiting active genocide against Palestinians. And yes, you fill find the vast majority of academics around the world agree with this. Most any reputable peer reviewed journal article says the same thing. You won't, on the other hand, find many reputable claims of the contrary. This was the original argument. What is it you are trying to argue? Regardless, we all have eyes and ears here. One needs only look at who is displacing who. Who comes in with bulldozers and tanks and throws people from their homes in true settler colonialism fashion.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settler_colonialism Oh, people can rationalize, spin things anyway they want to support horrendous things. This is no different. Yes, the Israeli state has been committing genocide against Palestinians. And nothing you or I or anyone else here says changes that. Thanks for the reply 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Freedom ?? Democracy ?? But while the government’s approval ratings are nose-diving, the decision to launch a war on Hamas has firm backing from most Jewish Israelis – despite the strong international criticism. And while most of Israel’s Arab and Palestinian citizens, and a small minority of Jews, don’t approve of the war, a wide-ranging crackdown on freedom of speech means that any form of dissent against the war is risky. Public displays of solidarity with Gaza or criticism of Israel’s military response are few and far between. Demonstrations against the war have been banned and more than 100 people have been arrested for posting messages of solidarity with Gaza on social media. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/israel-mood-gaza-war-intl-cmd/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, moosehead said: Freedom ?? Democracy ?? But while the government’s approval ratings are nose-diving, the decision to launch a war on Hamas has firm backing from most Jewish Israelis – despite the strong international criticism. And while most of Israel’s Arab and Palestinian citizens, and a small minority of Jews, don’t approve of the war, a wide-ranging crackdown on freedom of speech means that any form of dissent against the war is risky. Public displays of solidarity with Gaza or criticism of Israel’s military response are few and far between. Demonstrations against the war have been banned and more than 100 people have been arrested for posting messages of solidarity with Gaza on social media. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/israel-mood-gaza-war-intl-cmd/index.html You can question the sentiment, but I don't see how freedom and democracy fit in. Israelis are free people living in a democratic state. Just like Americans, they are free to come to conclusions others may disagree with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, moosehead said: a small minority of Jews, don’t approve of the war, a wide-ranging crackdown on freedom of speech means that any form of dissent against the war is risky. "Small." There are no doubt tons of Israelis that don't agree with the policies and actions of the Israeli state. Alas, being a dissident (especially a public dissident) in most any totalitarian police state is a dangerous proposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, Canuckle said: "Small." There are no doubt tons of Israelis that don't agree with the policies and actions of the Israeli state. Alas, being a dissident (especially a public dissident) in most any totalitarian police state is a dangerous proposition. Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration in regards to Israel? Bibi has brought things to the right but how you describe it seems a stretch. Many were recently on the streets in protest over Bibi's proposed Supreme court changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Just now, Satchmo said: Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration in regards to Israel? Bibi has brought things to the right but how you describe it seems a stretch. Many were recently on the streets in protest over Bibi's proposed Supreme court changes. Our in-house anarchist knows better He brings up a fringe sect leader of Neturei Karta as some sort of ultimate authority on all things Jewish lol. And he definitely knows better than anyone else what "tons of Israelis" think about this war. Let's not mistake feelings towards Bibi with feelings towards ensuring security of Israeli people and how to deal with Hamas. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 This applies to so many things discussed in this thread specifically and this forum in general 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, RomanPer said: This applies to so many things discussed in this thread specifically and this forum in general I'm with you Roman. Interesting how the images show that if you make the right connections the knowledge, insight, and wisdom comes from all sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Yahya! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) About 6.8 million Jewish Israelis and 6.8 million Palestinians live today between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River, an area encompassing Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), the latter made up of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. Throughout most of this area, Israel is the sole governing power; in the remainder, it exercises primary authority alongside limited Palestinian self-rule. Across these areas and in most aspects of life, Israeli authorities methodically privilege Jewish Israelis and discriminate against Palestinians. Laws, policies, and statements by leading Israeli officials make plain that the objective of maintaining Jewish Israeli control over demographics, political power, and land has long guided government policy. In pursuit of this goal, authorities have dispossessed, confined, forcibly separated, and subjugated Palestinians by virtue of their identity to varying degrees of intensity. In certain areas, as described in this report, these deprivations are so severe that they amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution. On the basis of its research, Human Rights Watch concludes that the Israeli government has demonstrated an intent to maintain the domination of Jewish Israelis over Palestinians across Israel and the OPT. In the OPT, including East Jerusalem, that intent has been coupled with systematic oppression of Palestinians and inhumane acts committed against them. When these three elements occur together, they amount to the crime of apartheid. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution Edited November 7, 2023 by moosehead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Canuckle said: Israel is commiting active genocide against Palestinians. And yes, you fill find the vast majority of academics around the world agree with this. Most any reputable peer reviewed journal article says the same thing. You won't, on the other hand, find many reputable claims of the contrary. This was the original argument. What is it you are trying to argue? Regardless, we all have eyes and ears here. One needs only look at who is displacing who. Who comes in with bulldozers and tanks and throws people from their homes in true settler colonialism fashion.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settler_colonialism Oh, people can rationalize, spin things anyway they want to support horrendous things. This is no different. Yes, the Israeli state has been committing genocide against Palestinians. And nothing you or I or anyone else here says changes that. Thanks for the reply Hamas is not a genocidal entity against it? People including myself recognize crimes by Israel. Is that the only issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, moosehead said: About 6.8 million Jewish Israelis and 6.8 million Palestinians live today between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River, an area encompassing Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), the latter made up of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. Throughout most of this area, Israel is the sole governing power; in the remainder, it exercises primary authority alongside limited Palestinian self-rule. Across these areas and in most aspects of life, Israeli authorities methodically privilege Jewish Israelis and discriminate against Palestinians. Laws, policies, and statements by leading Israeli officials make plain that the objective of maintaining Jewish Israeli control over demographics, political power, and land has long guided government policy. In pursuit of this goal, authorities have dispossessed, confined, forcibly separated, and subjugated Palestinians by virtue of their identity to varying degrees of intensity. In certain areas, as described in this report, these deprivations are so severe that they amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution. On the basis of its research, Human Rights Watch concludes that the Israeli government has demonstrated an intent to maintain the domination of Jewish Israelis over Palestinians across Israel and the OPT. In the OPT, including East Jerusalem, that intent has been coupled with systematic oppression of Palestinians and inhumane acts committed against them. When these three elements occur together, they amount to the crime of apartheid. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution And the Palestinians don't want to dominate the Israelis? Israel has nothing to benefit from having Gaza be a total mess. The issue is every time they pull away or loosen restrictions they get horribly horribly stung for their actions. When they withdrew all the settlements from Gaza, the residents immediately elected Hamas, who began using Gaza as a launch pad. When Israel allowed 20,000 workers from Gaza into Israel earlier this year, Hamas used it as an opportunity to gather intelligence for the Oct 7 attacks. Does Israel have an obligation to become the oppressed? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 5 minutes ago, moosehead said: About 6.8 million Jewish Israelis and 6.8 million Palestinians live today between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River, an area encompassing Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), the latter made up of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. Throughout most of this area, Israel is the sole governing power; in the remainder, it exercises primary authority alongside limited Palestinian self-rule. Across these areas and in most aspects of life, Israeli authorities methodically privilege Jewish Israelis and discriminate against Palestinians. Laws, policies, and statements by leading Israeli officials make plain that the objective of maintaining Jewish Israeli control over demographics, political power, and land has long guided government policy. In pursuit of this goal, authorities have dispossessed, confined, forcibly separated, and subjugated Palestinians by virtue of their identity to varying degrees of intensity. In certain areas, as described in this report, these deprivations are so severe that they amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution. On the basis of its research, Human Rights Watch concludes that the Israeli government has demonstrated an intent to maintain the domination of Jewish Israelis over Palestinians across Israel and the OPT. In the OPT, including East Jerusalem, that intent has been coupled with systematic oppression of Palestinians and inhumane acts committed against them. When these three elements occur together, they amount to the crime of apartheid. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution Ok, maybe I will play the internet info scavenger hunt game. Let's look at the Human Rights Watch ( an organization for which I often have respect). Your move next. HRW has been criticized for perceived bias by the national governments it has investigated for human rights abuses,[60][61][62] by NGO Monitor,[63] and by HRW's founder and former chairman, Robert L. Bernstein.[8] Bias allegations have included undue influence by U.S. government policy, and claims that HRW is biased against Israel (and focuses undue attention on the Arab–Israeli conflict).[64] HRW has also been criticized for poor research methodology and lax fact-checking, and ignoring the human-rights abuses of less-open regimes.[citation needed][specify] HRW has routinely publicly addressed, and often denies, criticism of its reporting and findings.[65] I 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 1 minute ago, Taxi said: And the Palestinians don't want to dominate the Israelis? Israel has nothing to benefit from having Gaza be a total mess. The issue is every time they pull away or loosen restrictions they get horribly horribly stung for their actions. When they withdrew all the settlements from Gaza, the residents immediately elected Hamas, who began using Gaza as a launch pad. When Israel allowed 20,000 workers from Gaza into Israel earlier this year, Hamas used it as an opportunity to gather intelligence for the Oct 7 attacks. Does Israel have an obligation to become the oppressed? I can not tell if you are serious or making some kind of a strange twisted joke..... The fact In 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Mandatory Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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