Hamas attacking Israel

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Ok, maybe I will play the internet info scavenger hunt game.  Let's look at the Human Rights Watch ( an organization for which I often have respect). Your move  next.

 

HRW has been criticized for perceived bias by the national governments it has investigated for human rights abuses,^[60][61][62] by NGO Monitor,^[63] and by HRW's founder and former chairman, Robert L. Bernstein.^[8] Bias allegations have included undue influence by U.S. government policy, and claims that HRW is biased against Israel (and focuses undue attention on the Arab–Israeli conflict).^[64] HRW has also been criticized for poor research methodology and lax fact-checking, and ignoring the human-rights abuses of less-open regimes.^{[citation needed][specify]} HRW has routinely publicly addressed, and often denies, criticism of its reporting and findings.^[65]

 

I

 

How about this one then...

 

 

B’Tselem – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories strives for a future in which human rights, liberty and equality are guaranteed to all people, Palestinian and Jewish alike, living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea

 

The Israeli regime enacts in all the territory it controls (Israeli sovereign territory, East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip) an apartheid regime. One organizing principle lies at the base of a wide array of Israeli policies: advancing and perpetuating the supremacy of one group – Jews – over another – Palestinians. B’Tselem rejects the perception of Israel as a democracy (inside the Green Line) that simultaneously upholds a temporary military occupation (beyond it). B’Tselem reached the conclusion that the bar for defining the Israeli regime as an apartheid regime has been met after considering the accumulation of policies and laws that Israel devised to entrench its control over Palestinians

 

https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

Israel-Gaza war: Assassination attempt on Palestine president Mahmoud Abbas kills one

https://www.the-express.com/news/world-news/117618/assassination-palestine-president-Mahmoud-Abbas

 

One of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' bodyguards was shot dead in an assassination attempt on the leader after he was given a 24-hour ultimatum by the "Sons of Abu Jandal" to declare a "global war" against Israel.

 

This needs a full print on the article.  

 

Imagine posters like below think the root problem has not been studied.  That people do not understand what the root problem is?

 

Here, IN GAZA, militants are willing to kill anyone who wont commit to the death of all Jews in Israel. Including a Palestinian President complicit in Oct 7th, yet not militant enough? As if Abbas, alive or dead could or should be calling on all Mozlems to join the fight. If someone cannot operate a business without paying a 'security' tax to Hamas, allow activity they would not be alive. In Gaza, you join the gang, or, well?  You don't.

 

 

The 'Son of Abu Jandal' has ordered the president to declare a "global war"... 

 

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

Oh, people can rationalize, spin things anyway they want to support  horrendous things. This is no different.

 

The president's convoy came under a hail of gunfire after he disregarded a menacing ultimatum from renegade Palestinian security forces, urging him to declare war on Israel.

 

Abbas holds the position of Chairman of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, or PLO, which governs the West Bank territory. Notably, the Palestine Authority president does not endorse the terrorist group Hamas, which controls the besieged Gaza Strip.

 

Local media reported that "one of Abbas' bodyguards was shot, and the attack was claimed by the organization known as 'Sons of Abu Jandal.'"

 

This group is alleged to have operated within the Palestinian security establishment in the West Bank. They had previously given President Abbas a 24-hour ultimatum to initiate hostilities against Israel following Israel's military actions in Gaza, a separate Palestinian territory.

[moosehead]

5 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Ok, maybe I will play the internet info scavenger hunt game.  Let's look at the Human Rights Watch ( an organization for which I often have respect). Your move  next.

 

HRW has been criticized for perceived bias by the national governments it has investigated for human rights abuses,^[60][61][62] by NGO Monitor,^[63] and by HRW's founder and former chairman, Robert L. Bernstein.^[8] Bias allegations have included undue influence by U.S. government policy, and claims that HRW is biased against Israel (and focuses undue attention on the Arab–Israeli conflict).^[64] HRW has also been criticized for poor research methodology and lax fact-checking, and ignoring the human-rights abuses of less-open regimes.^{[citation needed][specify]} HRW has routinely publicly addressed, and often denies, criticism of its reporting and findings.^[65]

 

I

 

How about this one.     I am great surprised more Canadians do not get informed of the Oppression in this region.

 

 

ACRI (Association for Civil Rights in Israel) is the oldest and most influential civil and human rights organization in Israel. Founded in 1972, ACRI is the only NGO in Israel advocating across the broad spectrum of human rights and civil liberties for everyone living in Israel and in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. 

 

Since the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967, Israel has denied millions of Palestinian residents their fundamental human rights, preventing them from taking part in decisions affecting their fate. The Occupation permeates every aspect of Palestinians’ daily lives, violating almost every basic right: the right to life and bodily integrity, freedom of movement, employment, family life, housing, health, education, and human dignity. Palestinians living within the Occupied Territories increasingly see their rights sacrificed in favor of Jewish Israelis for the expansion of settlement-building projects.

 

https://www.english.acri.org.il/occupied-territories

[Canuck Surfer]

2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

complicit

Incorrect word, sympathetic?

 

Apologies. 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Satchmo]

11 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

How about this one then...

 

 

B’Tselem – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories strives for a future in which human rights, liberty and equality are guaranteed to all people, Palestinian and Jewish alike, living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea

 

The Israeli regime enacts in all the territory it controls (Israeli sovereign territory, East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip) an apartheid regime. One organizing principle lies at the base of a wide array of Israeli policies: advancing and perpetuating the supremacy of one group – Jews – over another – Palestinians. B’Tselem rejects the perception of Israel as a democracy (inside the Green Line) that simultaneously upholds a temporary military occupation (beyond it). B’Tselem reached the conclusion that the bar for defining the Israeli regime as an apartheid regime has been met after considering the accumulation of policies and laws that Israel devised to entrench its control over Palestinians

 

https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid

The point I was trying to make was that this back and forth could never end.   There is so much information out there to choose from.

 

Maybe I did not make that clear in my post and was relying on the fact that it has been one of my most common themes throughout all this.  For every meme there is at least one counter meme.  And some seem to like posting the same meme over and over again, albeit with just a few differences.

 

When do we get back to discussing the best ways to achieve peace?

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Satchmo
sp

[Canuck Surfer]

6 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

How about this one.     I am great surprised more Canadians do not get informed of the Oppression in this region.

 

 

ACRI (Association for Civil Rights in Israel) is the oldest and most influential civil and human rights organization in Israel. Founded in 1972, ACRI is the only NGO in Israel advocating across the broad spectrum of human rights and civil liberties for everyone living in Israel and in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. 

 

Since the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967, Israel has denied millions of Palestinian residents their fundamental human rights, preventing them from taking part in decisions affecting their fate. The Occupation permeates every aspect of Palestinians’ daily lives, violating almost every basic right: the right to life and bodily integrity, freedom of movement, employment, family life, housing, health, education, and human dignity. Palestinians living within the Occupied Territories increasingly see their rights sacrificed in favor of Jewish Israelis for the expansion of settlement-building projects.

 

https://www.english.acri.org.il/occupied-territories

 

Expansion settlement should stop, needs to stop, those taking part held accountable. Put in jail, including those in govt. that permit it. Take away the Israeli excuse.

 

There also needs to be an accumulation of policing Palestinians?  Which stops launching of missiles in to Israel. Which stops groups like 'Son of Abu Jandal.' Be part of a solution?  For such groups there is only a 'Final Solution.'  Palestinians need a peaceful solution internally, not the rise of another militant group.

 

Those who will work to a political solution, a two state solution. Life in occupied territories has a constant fear of allegiance. From those who represent ''their side!'' 

 

I have a story to tell. See my next post.

[RomanPer]

36 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Yahya!  

 

He actually said "thousands of terrorists", not "a lot of terrorists". Interesting why she translated it this way. I'll look for the source in Hebrew to see what else might not have been translated verbatim.

[Taxi]

38 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

I can not tell if you are serious or making some kind of a strange twisted joke.....

 

The fact

 

 

In 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Mandatory Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias

 

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

 

And just as many Jews fled or were expelled from their homes in Arab and Muslim lands. The descendants of those people now make up the majority of Jews in Israel. Israel likely would not exist without them. 

[moosehead]

6 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

And just as many Jews fled or were expelled from their homes in Arab and Muslim lands. The descendants of those people now make up the majority of Jews in Israel. Israel likely would not exist without them. 

 

So you are avoiding  to answer my honest question. I will try again.

 

How many israeli's were evicted by Palestinians from Palistinian lands ?  Pretty simple question for you to directly answer. I am waiting. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by moosehead

[Canuckle]

1 hour ago, Satchmo said:

Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration in regards to Israel?  Bibi has brought things to the right but how you describe it seems a stretch.

 

Many were recently on the streets in protest over Bibi's proposed Supreme court changes.  

 

I think it's apt descriptor of the Israeli state, tbh. They even have forced conscription.

 

Don't know you saw it but posted a video of a Rabbi in Israel speaking about anti-zionism and how their public displays of dissent are met with suppression.  It's one thing to protest supreme court changes but something else entirely to challenge the actions and legitimacy of the Zionist state.

 

And trust me. I don't use those words lightly here either: Totalitarian police state an apt descriptor.

[Satchmo]

2 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

I think it's apt descriptor of the Israeli state, tbh. They even have forced conscription.

 

Don't know you saw it but posted a video of a Rabbi in Israel speaking about anti-zionism and how their public displays of dissent are met with suppression.  It's one thing to protest supreme court changes but something else entirely to challenge the actions and legitimacy of the Zionist state.

 

And trust me. I don't use those words lightly here either: Totalitarian police state an apt descriptor.

And I disagree...

[Canuckle]

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

And I disagree...

Sure.

Israel police boss threatens to send anti-war protesters to Gaza ‘on buses’

Israel’s police chief, Kobi Shabtai, has said there will be “zero tolerance” for protests in support of Gaza in Israel, threatening to send anti-war demonstrators to the besieged Palestinian enclave that Israel has been bombarding daily for nearly two weeks.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/19/israel-police-boss-threatens-to-send-anti-war-protesters-to-gaza-on-buses

 

 

[moosehead]

18 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

And just as many Jews fled or were expelled from their homes in Arab and Muslim lands. The descendants of those people now make up the majority of Jews in Israel. Israel likely would not exist without them. 

 

There is actually different views on this.... Many moved to Israel for Zionist yearnings or economic reasons... others moved due to oppression/persecution.   You do realize it was not Palestinians that were responsible for this migration. You do realize this right ?

 

 

 

The history of the exodus has been politicized, given its proposed relevance to the historical narrative of the Arab–Israeli conflict.^[19][20] When presenting the history, those who view the Jewish exodus as analogous to the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight generally emphasize the push factors and consider those who left as refugees, while those who do not, emphasize the pull factors and consider them willing immigrants.^[21]

 

The reasons for the exoduses are manifold, including pull factors, such as the desire to fulfill Zionist yearnings or find a better economic status and a secure home in Europe or the Americas and, in Israel, a policy change in favour of mass immigration focused on Jews from Arab and Muslim countries,^[17] together with push factors, such as pogroms, persecution, antisemitism, political instability,^[18] poverty^[18] and expulsion. 

 

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#:~:text=The Jewish exodus from the,Asia in the 20th century.}

Edited November 7, 2023 by moosehead

[moosehead]

9 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

And I disagree...

 

You have every right to disagree.  You can even protest here in Canada.    Just be thankful in Canada we are not oppressed like the good people in Israel are by their current right wing extremist  government. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by moosehead

[Canuck Surfer]

@Ilunga mentioned my own families background on paying creed, bringing forward discussion of genocide in Ukraine by Stalin Russia. I mentioned I would tell a story!

 

 

There are memorials in Edmonton & Winnipeg, the first in the world outside Ukraine asking the world to recognize oppressions that led to the deaths of more than 3,000,000 Ukrainians in 1932/1933. No, not during World War I, World War II. Pogroms, displacement of people, theft of their farms. My father was part of organization that raised the funding, wrote the scripts, petitioned Canadian levels of govt. for access and erected these memorials.  

 

My own Grandfather, a WWI refugee left Ukraine before the Holodomor in 1927. It was clear where he lived offered no hope. Born 1901 he fled the family farm at the outset of WWI.  Was captured and sent in a cattle car to the Gulags as a boy to work in camps. This was the way of the World; it happened everywhere.  Which is why war occurred? There was no haven for justice, a safe or peaceful home. He had ten siblings, never saw any again when he returned post War, nor his parents. Presumed all dead; he heard a sister survived in Poland but never found out.  During the war, between 14 & 16 was 'conscripted,' in the Russian army by those who killed his family. Sent to the front with a rifle.  As the world broke down, he escaped. The world was still torn apart in Western Ukraine post war he moved from place to place, homeless, looking for work & to escape factional fighting, resistance movements.

 

Today Stepan Bandera is a hero in Ukraine, a war criminal who participated in slaughtering Jews & sided with Hitler according to how others would tell the story. There is truth in all, reality more complex when history puts you in that circumstance. A simpler version is he led a militant group seeking independence for Ukraine. Who and how they fought for alliances and survival is part of a bigger pictures; as many groups were also seeking their place in the world. Tens of million people were displaced.    

 

My grandfather would tell you he had enough of war. Factions forming, including the UNB & UNAB were being grouped to resist those that took power in the Russian Revolution. If you worked in a factory, or shop?  You were ''recruited'' to the resistance movement if you spoke Ukrainian. By the butt end of a rifle. He also fled Ukraine, there was no choice. Then Warsaw, and went to Gdansk as these movements spread. Infiltrating unions, shipyards, industrial complexes. Looking both for recruits, methods to exhort control, create access to markets, goods, arms. He saw gang members that had beat him near to death when he did not join the resistance back home. In a shipyard where he was a labourer.  He jumped on a ship, stowed away to avoid another beating, sent back to war again. 

 

I envision being in Gaza city as a Palestinian is no different.  Play along with Hamas or die. Fight Hamas, if you are even braver, want peace for your World! Or escape. None are easy choices. All while 'you' are at war with others. 

 

He thought the ship was headed to Hamburg; he arrived in Halifax many weeks later. We became Canadian.

[Taxi]

19 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

So you are avoiding  to answer my honest question. I will try again.

 

How many israeli's were evicted by Palestinians from Palistinian lands ?  Pretty simple question for you to directly answer. I am waiting. 

Many.

 

When the Arabs gained control of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 1948 they evicted all Jews from those territories and later made it punishable by death to transfer land to a Jew. Additionally, over 1% of the Jewish population was killed various riots, expulsions, and attacks on civilians from 1946-1948. It was a brutal all out state of war. It was far from a one sided massacre by either side. 

[moosehead]

10 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

@Ilunga mentioned my own families background on paying creed, bringing forward discussion of genocide in Ukraine by Stalin Russia. I mentioned I would tell a story!

 

 

There are memorials in Edmonton & Winnipeg, the first in the world outside Ukraine asking the world to recognize oppressions that led to the deaths of more than 3,000,000 Ukrainians in 1932/1933. No, not during World War I, World War II. Pogroms, displacement of people, theft of their farms. My father was part of organization that raised the funding, wrote the scripts, petitioned Canadian levels of govt. for access and erected these memorials.  

 

My own Grandfather, a WWI refugee left Ukraine before the Holodomor in 1927. It was clear where he lived offered no hope. Born 1901 he fled the family farm at the outset of WWI.  Was captured and sent in a cattle car to the Gulags as a boy to work in camps. This was the way of the World; it happened everywhere.  Which is why war occurred? There was no haven for justice, a safe or peaceful home. He had ten siblings, never saw any again when he returned post War, nor his parents. Presumed all dead; he heard a sister survived in Poland but never found out.  During the war, between 14 & 16 was 'conscripted,' in the Russian army by those who killed his family. Sent to the front with a rifle.  As the world broke down, he escaped. The world was still torn apart in Western Ukraine post war he moved from place to place, homeless, looking for work & to escape factional fighting, resistance movements.

 

Today Stepan Bandera is a hero in Ukraine, a war criminal who participated in slaughtering Jews & sided with Hitler according to how others would tell the story. There is truth in all, reality more complex when history puts you in that circumstance. A simpler version is he led a militant group seeking independence for Ukraine. Who and how they fought for alliances and survival is part of a bigger pictures; as many groups were also seeking their place in the world. Tens of million people were displaced.    

 

My grandfather would tell you he had enough of war. Factions forming, including the UNB & UNAB were being grouped to resist those that took power in the Russian Revolution. If you worked in a factory, or shop?  You were ''recruited'' to the resistance movement if you spoke Ukrainian. By the butt end of a rifle. He also fled Ukraine, there was no choice. Then Warsaw, and went to Gdansk as these movements spread. Infiltrating unions, shipyards, industrial complexes. Looking both for recruits, methods to exhort control, create access to markets, goods, arms. He saw gang members that had beat him near to death when he did not join the resistance back home. In a shipyard where he was a labourer.  He jumped on a ship, stowed away to avoid another beating, sent back to war again. 

 

I envision being in Gaza city as a Palestinian is no different.  Play along with Hamas or die. Fight Hamas, if you are even braver, want peace for your World! Or escape. None are easy choices. All while 'you' are at war with others. 

 

He thought the ship was headed to Hamburg; he arrived in Halifax many weeks later. We became Canadian.

 

Great story.  He sounds like an amazing man.  You must be very proud.  Thanks for sharing. 

[moosehead]

4 minutes ago, Taxi said:

Many.

 

When the Arabs gained control of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 1948 they evicted all Jews from those territories and later made it punishable by death to transfer land to a Jew. Additionally, over 1% of the Jewish population was killed various riots, expulsions, and attacks on civilians from 1946-1948. It was a brutal all out state of war. It was far from a one sided massacre by either side. 

 

Are you sure about your story....   Who told you the version you are writing about....?  Maybe you need to start sharing links...

 

 

Wikopedia.

 

In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were unilaterally dismantled and Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip.

The disengagement was proposed in 2003 by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government in June 2004, and approved by the Knesset in February 2005 as the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law.^[1] It was implemented in August 2005 and completed in September 2005. The settlers who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the August 15, 2005, deadline were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days.

Edited November 7, 2023 by moosehead

[Taxi]

7 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Are you sure about your story....   Who told you the version you are writing about....?  Maybe you need to start sharing links...

 

 

Wikopedia.

 

In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were unilaterally dismantled and Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip.

The disengagement was proposed in 2003 by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government in June 2004, and approved by the Knesset in February 2005 as the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law.^[1] It was implemented in August 2005 and completed in September 2005. The settlers who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the August 15, 2005, deadline were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days.

 

From 1948-1967, the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian control and the West Bank was under Jordanian control. After the further Arab defeat in 1967, Israel gained control of those two territories and began to move Jews back into them.

 

For someone who has such strong opinions on this stuff, you'd think you'd be more knowledgeable. 

[moosehead]

6 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

From 1948-1967, the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian control and the West Bank was under Jordanian control. After the further Arab defeat in 1967, Israel gained control of those two territories and began to move Jews back into them.

 

For someone who has such strong opinions on this stuff, you'd think you'd be more knowledgeable. 

 

So you are not going to provide links to your claims of palestinians evicting jewish citizens ?

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by moosehead

[Elias Pettersson]

31 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

So you are avoiding  to answer my honest question. I will try again.

 

How many israeli's were evicted by Palestinians from Palistinian lands ?  Pretty simple question for you to directly answer. I am waiting. 

 

None, because the Palestinians lost the war that they started in 1948 after rejecting the 1947 partition plan which would have given them 38% of the land.  Also, many of the Jewish people that settled into Israel after 1948 were expelled themselves from other Arab countries, so they were basically refugees...

[Bob Long]

3 hours ago, Canuckle said:

 

Israel is commiting active genocide against Palestinians. And yes, you fill find the vast majority of academics around the world agree with this. Most any reputable peer reviewed journal article says the same thing. You won't, on the other hand, find many reputable claims of the contrary. This was the original argument. What is it you are trying to argue?

 

Regardless, we all have eyes and ears here.

 

One needs only look at who is displacing who. Who comes in with bulldozers and tanks and throws people from their homes in true settler colonialism fashion.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settler_colonialism

 

Oh, people can rationalize, spin things anyway they want to support  horrendous things. This is no different.

 

Yes, the Israeli state has been committing genocide against Palestinians. And nothing you or I or anyone else here says changes that.

 

Thanks for the reply

 

So 4/5 academics agree? in what disciplines?  where are you even getting this idea from about "academics around the world?'

 

Please stop using the term genocide. Its not what this is. 

[moosehead]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

None, because the Palestinians lost the war that they started in 1948 after rejecting the 1947 partition plan which would have given them 38% of the land.  Also, many of the Jewish people that settled into Israel after 1948 were expelled themselves from other Arab countries, so they were basically refugees...

 

At least you are honest in your answer......

 

One thing though is many jewish immigrants move to Israel for MANY reasons.   Many moved for economic gain... so not sure i would equate them with refugees. 

[Satchmo]

14 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Sure.

Israel police boss threatens to send anti-war protesters to Gaza ‘on buses’

Israel’s police chief, Kobi Shabtai, has said there will be “zero tolerance” for protests in support of Gaza in Israel, threatening to send anti-war demonstrators to the besieged Palestinian enclave that Israel has been bombarding daily for nearly two weeks.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/19/israel-police-boss-threatens-to-send-anti-war-protesters-to-gaza-on-buses

 

 

And I still disagree, and ask you to go back to your original post, my original response, and just consider those two for a moment.

 

You called Israel a ' totalitarian police state '.  I responded pointing out the many recent demonstration that were not shut down ala Tiananmen Square but were all allowed to proceed.   I also acknowledged that Israel had moved to the right, but to call it a police state is an exaggeration.   

 

You then you countered with other stuff describing a country at war and some people saying questionable things.  No proof of a police state there, just proof some people say some questionable things.

 

Of course you have a right to call anything anything you wish.   And I will continue to disagree, at least on this call.   

 

Over and out on this subject.  ( I sincerely hope so anyway...)