moosehead Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, Bob Long said: So 4/5 academics agree? in what disciplines? where are you even getting this idea from about "academics around the world?' Please stop using the term genocide. Its not what this is. Gaza is ‘running out of time’ UN experts warn, demanding a ceasefire to prevent genocide GENEVA (2 November 2023) – Time is running out to prevent genocide and humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza, UN experts warned today, expressing deep frustration with Israel’s refusal to halt plans to decimate the besieged Gaza strip. “We remain convinced that the Palestinian people are at grave risk of genocide,” the experts said. “The time for action is now. Israel’s allies also bear responsibility and must act now to prevent its disastrous course of action,” they said. https://www.un.org/unispal/document/gaza-is-running-out-of-time-un-experts-warn-demanding-a-ceasefire-to-prevent-genocide/#:~:text=to prevent genocide-,Gaza is 'running out of time' 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 35 minutes ago, moosehead said: You have every right to disagree. You can even protest here in Canada. Just be thankful in Canada we are not oppressed like the good people in Israel are by their current right wing extremist government. I am just stating my belief that it is not a 'totalitarian police state'. Right wing yes, totalitarian police state no. It's at war now though and countries at war always tighten up a little. I agree Canada is a pretty damn cool place, eh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Satchmo said: And I still disagree, and ask you to go back to your original post, my original response, and just consider those two for a moment. You called Israel a ' totalitarian police state '. I responded pointing out the many recent demonstration that were not shut down ala Tiananmen Square but were all allowed to proceed. I also acknowledged that Israel had moved to the right, but to call it a police state is an exaggeration. You then you countered with other stuff describing a country at war and some people saying questionable things. No proof of a police state there, just proof some people say some questionable things. Of course you have a right to call anything anything you wish. And I will continue to disagree, at least on this call. Over and out on this subject. ( I sincerely hope so anyway...) Israel is not a nice country. It is a powerful police state founded on pathological paranoia with only a veneer of civility, carefully crafted and maintained for the consumption of those who still believe in the myth of Israeli democracy. Mainstream Israelis live in a fictional bubble that separates them from reality. If there is a democracy there, only this select group enjoys it — just like the conformist white population in old South Africa. Supporting Israel now is the same as claiming that South Africa under apartheid was an acceptable democracy. It also means abandoning the Palestinians, just like the world abandoned black South Africans (and white dissidents) for 45 long years. Avigail Abarbanel is a former Israeli and a local psychotherapist/counsellor. https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-police-state/7049 A member of Knesset (Israel’s parliament) said Monday that Israel has turned into a “police state”, according to Israeli daily Haaretz on Monday. Israel “has become a police state in which any person whose opinion opposes the government will be held and questioned,” Mossi Raz of the left-wing Meretz party said. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israel-turning-into-police-state-lawmaker/1223967 Edited November 7, 2023 by moosehead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Ok, you got me. You've gone and found someone on the internet who agrees with your point of view. I guess I should have known better. I surrender. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 5 minutes ago, moosehead said: Israel is not a nice country. It is a powerful police state founded on pathological paranoia with only a veneer of civility, carefully crafted and maintained for the consumption of those who still believe in the myth of Israeli democracy. Mainstream Israelis live in a fictional bubble that separates them from reality. If there is a democracy there, only this select group enjoys it — just like the conformist white population in old South Africa. Supporting Israel now is the same as claiming that South Africa under apartheid was an acceptable democracy. It also means abandoning the Palestinians, just like the world abandoned black South Africans (and white dissidents) for 45 long years. Avigail Abarbanel is a former Israeli and a local psychotherapist/counsellor. https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-police-state/7049 A member of Knesset (Israel’s parliament) said Monday that Israel has turned into a “police state”, according to Israeli daily Haaretz on Monday. Israel “has become a police state in which any person whose opinion opposes the government will be held and questioned,” Mossi Raz of the left-wing Meretz party said. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israel-turning-into-police-state-lawmaker/1223967 Yesterday Peter Beinart, the liberal Zionist writer, disclosed that he had been detained at Ben Gurion airport on August 12 for an hour of questioning of his political opinions/activities. Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu promptly released an unprecedented statement saying the detention had been a mistake, and Beinart said he would accept Netanyahu’s apology only if he apologized to Palestinians who are subjected to far worse. Many Zionists have responded angrily to the news by saying that the country is damaging itself in the eyes of the world by harassing leftleaning Jews who want to visit. And the Israeli attorney general says she is looking into the detention incidents. https://mondoweiss.net/2018/08/israel-becoming-interrogation/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, Bob Long said: So 4/5 academics agree? in what disciplines? where are you even getting this idea from about "academics around the world?' Please stop using the term genocide. Its not what this is. Yes, it is absolutely genocide. Please stop ignoring reality. All your comment tells me is you aren't big into peer reviewed journals. And yes, the vast majority of the academic community agrees the actions of the Israeli state on Palestinian people to be genocide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Satchmo said: Ok, you got me. You've gone and found someone on the internet who agrees with your point of view. I guess I should have known better. I surrender. No comment. Just be happy you get to live in a free country that respects human rights of all. A country where we are trying to go on a Path of Truth and Reconciliation to correct some of the wrongs we did in our Settler / Colonial days.... I only wish that the good Palestinians and good Jewish people can get together and address their past and find a future all that has no occupation / oppression / apartheid in their government policies. Edited November 7, 2023 by moosehead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Just now, Canuckle said: Yes, it is absolutely genocide. Please stop ignoring reality. but you can't support that with objective evidence. TBH it kind of blows any credibility to your arguments. Just now, Canuckle said: All your comment tells me is you aren't big into peer reviewed journals. I'm not? funny my name is on a few papers. Just now, Canuckle said: And yes, the vast majority of the academic community agrees the actions of the Israeli state on Palestinian people to be genocide. I call BS on that. Prove that please. And which community are you talking about? all of them? your political science pals? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 1 minute ago, moosehead said: Yesterday Peter Beinart, the liberal Zionist writer, disclosed that he had been detained at Ben Gurion airport on August 12 for an hour of questioning of his political opinions/activities. Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu promptly released an unprecedented statement saying the detention had been a mistake, and Beinart said he would accept Netanyahu’s apology only if he apologized to Palestinians who are subjected to far worse. Many Zionists have responded angrily to the news by saying that the country is damaging itself in the eyes of the world by harassing leftleaning Jews who want to visit. And the Israeli attorney general says she is looking into the detention incidents. https://mondoweiss.net/2018/08/israel-becoming-interrogation/ oh look! just like a Ginza Knife there's more! Question: Which do you think is deeper, the Mariana trench or the internet? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddikulus Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: That poster has been taking the same side for the last 180 pages. Don't let them fool you into believing they are neutral in this conflict... As if anyone has been neutral in this thread. If neutrality was so prevalent in this thread and @moosehead was the only one being one-sided then we wouldn't have seen more infractions and deleted posts than just about every thread combined on this forum and there wouldn't be a big red banner each time we enter this thread. Can we name even one poster who has actually switched "side" in the last 180 pages? Neutrality is just straddling the fence anyway due to a reluctance to have people question your ideas and thoughts. Not sure we have anyone in this thread who really fits that description, seems like most people have strong opinions on this subject who seem to be deeply entrenched in their position. @moosehead is no different, seems like what we all have in common is the thought that less civilians suffer as a result of this conflict Where we disagree is where to assign blame for where we are today and what is the path going forward. Edited November 7, 2023 by Riddikulus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Just now, Satchmo said: oh look! just like a Ginza Knife there's more! ^ this deserves applause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: but you can't support that with objective evidence. TBH it kind of blows any credibility to your arguments. I'm not? funny my name is on a few papers. I call BS on that. Prove that please. And which community are you talking about? all of them? your political science pals? It's genocide. Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians. And yes, the academic community is quite clear on this. Of course it's not some one sided consensus (as things in life seldom are for varying reasons) but the vast vast majority agree with that conclusion. Deny all you want. Don't care. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddikulus Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Taxi said: And the Palestinians don't want to dominate the Israelis? Israel has nothing to benefit from having Gaza be a total mess. The issue is every time they pull away or loosen restrictions they get horribly horribly stung for their actions. When they withdrew all the settlements from Gaza, the residents immediately elected Hamas, who began using Gaza as a launch pad. When Israel allowed 20,000 workers from Gaza into Israel earlier this year, Hamas used it as an opportunity to gather intelligence for the Oct 7 attacks. Does Israel have an obligation to become the oppressed? Of course they do, to even make such a statement just shows your naivety. Dead Palestinians means less opposition when Israel comes in and eventually expropriates land to build more settlements. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 5 minutes ago, Riddikulus said: Of course they do, to even make such a statement just shows your naivety. Dead Palestinians means less opposition when Israel comes in and eventually expropriates land to build more settlements. I notice that one post after a call for impartiality you come up with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bure_Pavel Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 10 minutes ago, Canuckle said: It's genocide. Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians. And yes, the academic community is quite clear on this. Of course it's not some one sided consensus (as things in life seldom are for varying reasons) but the vast vast majority agree with that conclusion. Deny all you want. Don't care. It is definitely means the definition of genocide established by the UN in 1948, but on a very small scale. The previous 43 genocides from 1956 and 2016 resulted in an estimated 50 million deaths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, Canuckle said: It's genocide. Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians. And yes, the academic community is quite clear on this. Of course it's not some one sided consensus (as things in life seldom are for varying reasons) but the vast vast majority agree with that conclusion. Deny all you want. Don't care. I'm not denying anything, you are failing to prove something. Just show me the link that gives the 'academic community ' consensus on genocide. Otherwise you are just making it up. It would be fine to say it's your opinion, but you are stating it as fact. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddikulus Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 1 minute ago, Satchmo said: I notice that one post after a call for impartiality you come up with this. Not sure how you got that from my post. In fact I quite clearly stated, 24 minutes ago, Riddikulus said: Neutrality is just straddling the fence anyway due to a reluctance to have people question your ideas and thoughts. Maybe I wasn't emphatic enough. What you refer to as 'impartiality' is just pussyfooting, I don't have any respect for it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 5 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said: It is definitely means the definition of genocide established by the UN in 1948, but on a very small scale. The previous 43 genocides from 1956 and 2016 resulted in an estimated 50 million deaths. Getting rid of Hamas doesn't fit that definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bure_Pavel Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Getting rid of Hamas doesn't fit that definition. UN defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. I would argue the bolded one might be applicable by their definition. Even though their main goal is the destruction of Hamas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 34 minutes ago, Satchmo said: And I still disagree, and ask you to go back to your original post, my original response, and just consider those two for a moment. You called Israel a ' totalitarian police state '. I responded pointing out the many recent demonstration that were not shut down ala Tiananmen Square but were all allowed to proceed. I also acknowledged that Israel had moved to the right, but to call it a police state is an exaggeration. You then you countered with other stuff describing a country at war and some people saying questionable things. No proof of a police state there, just proof some people say some questionable things. Of course you have a right to call anything anything you wish. And I will continue to disagree, at least on this call. Over and out on this subject. ( I sincerely hope so anyway...) Police states can still provide a modicum of perceived freedoms. This isn't some black and white all or nothing affair here. There is still a proverbial bell curve of acceptable practices and beliefs allowable by state power, but there are still hard lines as well. The denial of anti-war protests (threatening to send participants to Gaza even), while not explicitly mutually exclusive act of a "police state," nevertheless sheds light on acceptable behaviors and beliefs in present tense, especially when looking at the bigger picture of Zionist "right-wing" policy you speak of. Social control comes in all sorts of flavours, friend. Sometimes words like "democracy" are just words. Israel, even the US, are far from being actual democracies when you get into the details. But... how far down this rabbit hole would you like to tumble, Alice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 14 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Getting rid of Hamas doesn't fit that definition. Oh... that's all they've been doing the past 60 years eh. Just getting rid of Hamas. That's it. That's all. Nothing to see here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Riddikulus said: Not sure how you got that from my post. In fact I quite clearly stated, Maybe I wasn't emphatic enough. What you refer to as 'impartiality' is just pussyfooting, I don't have any respect for it. I have to honest and say I wasn't exactly sure what your post meant. I thought it was a call for impartiality, or pluralism, but I guess I was wrong. I see now it just means no pussyfooting. Then allow me to step right up and say with no pussyfooting that this statement is nonsense: Neutrality is just straddling the fence anyway due to a reluctance to have people question your ideas and thoughts. 11 minutes ago, Canuckle said: Police states can still provide a modicum of perceived freedoms. This isn't some black and white all or nothing affair here. There is still a proverbial bell curve of acceptable practices and beliefs allowable by state power, but there are still hard lines as well. The denial of anti-war protests (threatening to send participants to Gaza even), while not explicitly mutually exclusive act of a "police state," nevertheless sheds light on acceptable behaviors and beliefs in present tense, especially when looking at the bigger picture of Zionist "right-wing" policy you speak of. Social control comes in all sorts of flavours, friend. Sometimes words like "democracy" are just words. Israel, even the US, are far from being actual democracies when you get into the details. But... how far down this rabbit hole would you like to tumble, Alice? Thanks for letting me know. Edited November 8, 2023 by Satchmo arrgh! I've been merged! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckle Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 26 minutes ago, Bob Long said: I'm not denying anything, you are failing to prove something. Just show me the link that gives the 'academic community ' consensus on genocide. Otherwise you are just making it up. It would be fine to say it's your opinion, but you are stating it as fact. Facts don't lie. Sorry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddikulus Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Satchmo said: I have to honest and say I wasn't exactly sure what your post meant. I thought it was a call for impartiality, or pluralism, but I guess I was wrong. I see now it just means no pussyfooting. Then allow me to step right up and say with no pussyfooting that this statement is nonsense: Neutrality is just straddling the fence anyway due to a reluctance to have people question your ideas and thoughts. Thanks for letting me know. The idea that anyone is truly neutral or impartial in this thread is nonsense, this is by far the most divisive topic on this forum. The red banner on top proves it. Edited November 8, 2023 by Riddikulus 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 Just now, Riddikulus said: The idea that anyone is truly neutral or impartial in this thread is nonsense, this is by far the most divisive topic on this forum. Now that's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.