Hamas attacking Israel

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Some people just want to ignore the reality of what is actually happening. Maybe it is self preservation.

I am trying to give them space and let them live in their own reality.  Maybe it is what they need in their  life at this time.

 

Let us keep hoping for peace and safety for civilians.  Lets keep hoping for peace , justice and freedom for Palestinian people - they deserve the same peace and freedom of what we have.   All humans in all countries  are equal regardless of race, religion , gender or sexuality.    

Does Hamas believe all of us are equal? 

[Bob Long]

12 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Says the guy with no evidence to deny? Yes, it's a fact. As I told @Satchmo are you expecting I dreg up every peer reviewed journal article over the past, say, 30 years stating the Israeli state is committing genocide on Palestinians. And then compare it to those that say the counter to be conclusive evidence? Get a grip. And you'd still deny it anyway even if I did. I don't know you personally but I already know that much from our interactions over the past month or so. Page after  page, thread after thread.

 

You're gonna believe whatever you want regardless of what evidence is presented to the contrary.

 

Meh

 

So just post the papers since Oct 7 that prove your point.

[moosehead]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Does Hamas believe all of us are equal? 

 

Hamas are evil scum.  - No one here supports Hamas. I don't understand why people think that the anti Israel govement posters are pro Hamas.

NO ONE  Here  is PRO HAMAS.    Hamas are terrorists.  Evil.  Each Hamas terrorist needs to be hunted down and arrested is possible - held accountable for their horrible acts. 

 

The government of Israel practises oppression, occupation, apartheid and racism.  Basic very bad stuff.  70 years of abusing their minorities has not created a nation with safe borders.    Caging humans and denying them food, water and power , medicine will not create safe borders....... Evil acts have been done. 

 

2 sides of the same coin.  

 

Leaves the great people of Israel and the great Palestinians up the creek with no paddle.     We need peaceful moderate leaders in charge  of both sides to negotiate a peaceful long term solution. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by moosehead

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

 

Hamas are evil scum.  - No one here supports Hamas. I don't understand why people think that the anti Israel govement posters are pro Hamas.

NO ONE  Here  is PRO HAMAS.    Hamas are terrorists.  Evil.  Each Hamas terrorist needs to be hunted down and arrested is possible - held accountable for their horrible acts. 

 

The government of Israel practises oppression, occupation, apartheid and racism.  Basic very bad stuff.  70 years of abusing their minorities has not created a nation with safe borders.    Caging humans and denying them food, water and power , medicine will not create safe borders....... Evil acts have been done. 

 

2 sides of the same coin.  

 

Leaves the great people of Israel and the great Palestinians up the creek with no paddle.     We need peaceful moderate leaders in charge  of both sides to negotiate a peaceful long term solution. 

It was a simple question. Your answer was good in the first two paragraphs. With that we all (I’m guessing we all) agree. 

[Riddikulus]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Yes but moose head claimed he “was” being neutral. No one else has ever made that claim. That’s the difference. 

I never saw any claims of neutrality, upon being accused of being one-sided he stated that the Israel government and Hamas are both at fault not that they were equally at fault. I have also seen him post about the some of the unfair backlash against Jewish people around the world. I don't think he is neutral by any means, but I think someone who is one-sided would not be posting articles about anything that goes against their preferred narrative. 

[Canuckle]

57 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Every country performs genocide on the other party during a time of war. Genocidal activity has been around for over 3000 years. This war isn’t any different than all of the other wars. 
 

So not sure why you are trying to make an argument that the Israeli state is somehow doing something different than every other country during a time of war. 
 

Also, the Palestinians along with several other Arab countries fought the Israelis in 1948 for the land that is now called Israel. They also committed genocide by killing over 6000 Jews. 

 

We're talking about the actions of the Israeli state the past 3, 4, 5 decades.  Plenty has been written on this before October 2023 before this present state of "war." And yes, the Israel state is doing something different than other countries. Not an exclusive club mind you but the Zionist Israeli state definitely belongs in that category and they've been there long before the events of October 2023.

 

Whataboutism need not apply.

 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

 

We're talking about the actions of the Israeli state the past 3, 4, 5 decades.  Plenty has been written on this before October 2023 before this present state of "war." And yes, the Israel state is doing something different than other countries. Not an exclusive club mind you but the Zionist Israeli state definitely belongs in that category and they've been there long before the events of October 2023.

 

Whataboutism need not apply.

 

 

So "genocide" so slow that it allows population growth.

[moosehead]

6 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

So "genocide" so slow that it allows population growth.

 

Do you think that Israel has  used Israel government public policy  to destroy Palestinians communities the last 70 years ... Yes or NO ?  

I am awaiting your attempt to skirt the very direct question.  YES or NO ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

    

    

[Satchmo]

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

 

Says the guy with no evidence to deny? Yes, it's a fact. As I told @Satchmo are you expecting I dreg up every peer reviewed journal article over the past, say, 30 years stating the Israeli state is committing genocide on Palestinians. And then compare it to those that say the counter to be conclusive evidence? Get a grip. And you'd still deny it anyway even if I did. I don't know you personally but I already know that much from our interactions over the past month or so. Page after  page, thread after thread.

 

You're gonna believe whatever you want regardless of what evidence is presented to the contrary.

 

Meh

Have you given any thought to this:

 

No, I am not asking that because I know it's impossible to do.

 

It is that impossibility itself that keeps me from accepting your statement as fact, and puts to question you're right to state it as fact.

   

The fact that you might be right, or you might be wrong, does not enter into my argument.   Think it over as a trial lawyer might.  It can't be proven and therefor cannot be stated as fact.   

 

Edit - the conversation seems to have changed a bit during my dinner.  Just to be clear, this is the statement I question:

 

The vast majority of academic community agrees genocide is being perpetrated by the Israel state on Palestinians.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Satchmo

[Canuckle]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

So "genocide" so slow that it allows population growth.

 

Genocide so slow we watch Palestinian land disappear little by little decade after decade. And more to come after this new skirmish as well.

 

What's the over/under there, Bobby?

 

Yes, genocide.

[Yoshiyoshi]

Just now, moosehead said:

 

Do you think that Israel has  used Israel government public policy  to destroy Palestinians communities the last 70 years ... Yes or NO ?  

I am awaiting your attempt to skirt the very direct question.  YES or NO ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

    

    

Im pretty sure to qualify as genocide, it needs to meet all of the 5 requirements not 1 of the 5. Meeting 1 of the 5 is possible for pretty much every conflict ever....

[moosehead]

3 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Im pretty sure to qualify as genocide, it needs to meet all of the 5 requirements not 1 of the 5. Meeting 1 of the 5 is possible for pretty much every conflict ever....

 

1. Read the UN definition below..... Any of the following it seems...

2. Definition

   Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

   Article II

   In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    

   Killing members of the group;
3. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
4. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
5. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
6. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

1. Read the UN definition below..... Any of the following it seems...

2. Definition

   Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

   Article II

   In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    

   Killing members of the group;
3. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
4. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
5. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
6. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#

So there must be proven intent? Hamas has stated they intend to destroy Israel, right? Their intent is clear. 

[Canuckle]

1 minute ago, Satchmo said:

Have you given any thought to this:

 

No, I am not asking that because I know it's impossible to do.

 

It is that impossibility itself that keeps me from accepting your statement as fact, and puts to question you're right to state it as fact.

   

The fact that you might be right, or you might be wrong, does not enter into my argument.   Think it over as a trial lawyer might.  It can't be proven and therefor cannot be stated as fact.   

 

 

But it CAN be stated as fact. The only issue is the insurmountable task in proving it.  But you can go digging if that's your bar for legitimacy.

 

And is this to say you're incapable of using deductive logic? The evidence is everywhere. One needs only to actually look.   Start here if you need to:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_genocide_studies

[King Heffy]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

Not that pro-putin piece of shit again, jackson hinkle...

Says more about the person using him as a source than the Israelis.  

[Yoshiyoshi]

16 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

1. Read the UN definition below..... Any of the following it seems...

2. Definition

   Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

   Article II

   In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    

   Killing members of the group;
3. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
4. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
5. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
6. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#

ok, if this is accurate, then the UN definition of genocide is pretty much useless. Which isnt surprising as 90% of UN related stuff is garbage. B, C apply to every conflict, D can probably be applied to most wars. E and F are better indicators. But the biggest thing here is the opening line, requiring proving intent. That is something anyone can claim and makes the rest of this applicable to anyone. The UN would have courts and lawyers to argue intent before a resolution is made but anyone on the internet can just decide intent and call anything genocide this way.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Yoshiyoshi
meow

[Satchmo]

Just now, Canuckle said:

But it CAN be stated as fact. The only issue is the insurmountable task in proving it.  But you can go digging if that's your bar for legitimacy.

 

And is this to say you're incapable of using deductive logic? The evidence is everywhere. One needs only to actually look.   Start here if you need to:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_genocide_studies

Oh Christ.  All I'm talking about is logic.  30 years a programmer.  We use the same logic as philosophers, trial lawyers, and detectives.   There really is only one.

 

But it seems everybody is talking genocide and has moved on, or stepped back, from the unprovable ( as you admit) statement of fact:

 

 The vast majority of academic community agrees genocide is being perpetrated by the Israel state on Palestinians.

 

But wait, if there can be no proof, doesn't that make it a faith?

[Super19]

10 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Oh Christ.  All I'm talking about is logic.  30 years a programmer.  We use the same logic as philosophers, trial lawyers, and detectives.   There really is only one.

 

But it seems everybody is talking genocide and has moved on, or stepped back, from the unprovable ( as you admit) statement of fact:

 

 The vast majority of academic community agrees genocide is being perpetrated by the Israel state on Palestinians.

 

But wait, if there can be no proof, doesn't that make it a faith?

What proof do you need that genocide is a concern here? Humanity is concerned.

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

What proof do you need that genocide is a concern here? Humanity is concerned.

That is not even close to what I am questioning.   Please have another look.

 

 

[Super19]

5 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

That is not even close to what I am questioning.   Please have another look.

 

 

I asked the question earlier, and I got decisive "no's", that some people in this thread don't think a potential genocide is a problem here.

[Taxi]

3 hours ago, Riddikulus said:

Of course they do, to even make such a statement just shows your naivety. Dead Palestinians means less opposition when Israel comes in and eventually expropriates land to build more settlements. 

Israel is not building anything in Gaza. They totally withdrew over 15 years ago. I guarantee you Israel values their own citizens, that Hamas has been killing, more than killing Palestinians. I can't say the same for Hamas.

[Super19]

On 11/5/2023 at 7:37 PM, Satchmo said:

Always.   Are you working towards asking me if I see one here?   If so, my answer would be no.

 

[Canuckle]

Just now, Taxi said:

Israel is not building anything in Gaza. They totally withdrew over 15 years ago. I guarantee you Israel values their own citizens, that Hamas has been killing, more than killing Palestinians. I can't say the same for Hamas.

 

Don't speak too soon. What's the over/under on Israel coming out with more occupied land than they started with? And note, just because a building hasn't been erected does not make it not de facto annexation. It still very much is.

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

I asked the question earlier, and I got decisive "no's", that some people in this thread don't think a potential genocide is a problem here.

Sorry if you brushed you off.   Potential genocide is a major concern. I think deciding if one is happening now in Gaza depends only on your definition of the term.   Whatever we call what is going on now, I only hope it ends soon.

 

My earlier posts all had to do with  online statements.   This is a difficult issue we are discussing and I hope people are taking care to make sure what they saying is true, and that opinions and facts are easy to tell apart.

 

 

[Taxi]

4 hours ago, moosehead said:

 

So you are not going to provide links to your claims of palestinians evicting jewish citizens ?

 

 

The Palestinians have never had an independent country, so they have never had the opportunity to evict anyone. Arab mobs in the Mandate of Palestine did cause Jewish communities to leave via inflicting violence in them prior to 1948.

 

The Jordanians did evict Jews from the West Bank and Jerusalem after they occupied and later annexed the West Bank in 1948.

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/israelstudies.17.2.62

Edited November 8, 2023 by Taxi