Hamas attacking Israel

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

So for Isreal to be committing genocide on the Palestinian people that means there should be less of them right ?

 

 

From 1992 to 2022 the Palestinian population in Palestine has increased by 1.98 million people.

 

 

These are a bit dated but the population has been growing at the expected rate.

If it continues there will be a range of problems the Palestinian people will face.

 

https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-united-nations-palestinian-territories-gaza-strip-0b9fbb989fc2411495afd811da4ac6d0 

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-population-idUSKBN1491QJ 

 

Note the projections for 2050 ?

 

 

And if you haven't seen my posts condemning the illegal settlements, I condemn them.

 

How is it possible to have a genocide on people where the population is growing?  Wouldn't a genocide involve wiping those people out?

[Satchmo]

6 minutes ago, Super19 said:

By street I meant people of the world.

 

And yeah, Iraq. It was a good excuse to get in there an eff shit up.

We are only discussing amongst ourselves.

 

Iraq was a sad affair.   I and glad Canada did not take part.

[moosehead]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

How is it possible to have a genocide on people where the population is growing?  Wouldn't a genocide involve wiping those people out?

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

How is it possible to have a genocide on people where the population is growing?  Wouldn't a genocide involve wiping those people out?

Thousands and thousands of women and children have died this time.

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 Beautiful but.... not the sharpest tool in the shed. Lol.  ever listened to interviews with her?   *Shudder*

 

Well she started studying law and International Relations at at IDC Herzliya, now known as Reichman Uni.

Fast and furious interupted her education. 

 

Stupid is as stupid does.

[moosehead]

But heh if you don't think killing  thoussands of women and kids is genocide...... then what can i say..

 

Maybe you see it is some kind of an accident....  honest mistake....  carelessness.....  drunken mistake....  sun was in my eyes..... misunderstanding.... gun just went off some how.....

 

 

While many of us see it as genocide.

Edited November 8, 2023 by moosehead

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

How is it possible to have a genocide on people where the population is growing?  Wouldn't a genocide involve wiping those people out?

 

Logic dictates so.

[Satchmo]

6 minutes ago, moosehead said:

But heh if you don't think killing  thoussands of women and kids is genocide...... then what can i say..

Why don't you just ask us if we are horrified by it or not?

 

I'd bet that would be far simpler to discuss than the definition of the word genocide.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Satchmo
grammar counts

[Canuckle]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

So, I need to provide evidence to debunk his fake claims?  Maybe the Professor needs to actually back up everything he wrote.  He literally made a whole bunch of claims with zero evidence.

 

Where is the proof that the IDF has been given the green light to kill all Palestinians they encounter as part of their ground operations?  I don't need to counter his claim because he literally just made that shit up...

 

Well, if you're calling it BS you have to have some basis for that. If there's something legit out there which backs what you're saying, post it and I'll take it into consideration to inform my own views. Because so far its pretty easy to side with the guy that has written books on the matter, and an active Sociology Professor at Calgary University--- a question of credibility.

[Satchmo]

4 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Well, if you're calling it BS you have to have some basis for that. If there's something legit out there which backs what you're saying, post it and I'll take it into consideration to inform my own views. Because so far its pretty easy to side with the guy that has written books on the matter, and an active Sociology Professor at Calgary University--- a question of credibility.

Wait, we have to back things up again?   It's getting so hard to keep up.

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

I'd take Ana

 

Lol. I’m pretty sure Gal doesn’t give 2 shits about Ana. And she can kick her ass  

[RomanPer]

30 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

So for Isreal to be committing genocide on the Palestinian people that means there should be less of them right ?

 

 

From 1992 to 2022 the Palestinian population in Palestine has increased by 1.98 million people.

 

 

These are a bit dated but the population has been growing at the expected rate.

If it continues there will be a range of problems the Palestinian people will face.

 

https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-united-nations-palestinian-territories-gaza-strip-0b9fbb989fc2411495afd811da4ac6d0 

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-population-idUSKBN1491QJ 

 

Note the projections for 2050 ?

 

 

And if you haven't seen my posts condemning the illegal settlements, I condemn them.

 

Come on, brother, you are trying to use logic arguing with someone who doesn’t understand what logic is. You should try ignore button - it’s so refreshing  

[Canuckle]

23 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I am not saying I know this guys stuff, I'm only pointing out the sad fact that not all academics know their stuff.   Even the ones at Universities writing papers.

 

Todays NYT:

 

Nature, one of the most prestigious journals in scientific publishing, on Tuesday retracted a high-profile paper it had published in March that claimed the discovery of a superconductor that worked at everyday temperatures.

 

It was the second superconductor paper involving Ranga P. Dias, a professor of mechanical engineering and physics at the University of Rochester in New York State, to be retracted by the journal in just over a year. It joined an unrelated paper retracted by another journal in which Dr. Dias was a key author.

 

And this cherry picked example is evidence of what? Of course there are outliers sometimes. Like any system.

 

But by and large, peer reviewed studies and published articles are trustworthy and backed by others that have studied the discipline. ie. Peer reviewed. PhDs have to sign off on the bloody things. If they weren't credible the whole of academia would fucking collapse. And that certainly hasn't happened.

 

Yes, I will trust what the experts say in their given disciplines over most anyone on a given subject. And I take my medical advice from my doctor.

 

And when it comes time to discuss coding, I will trust you there as well.

[Canuckle]

21 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Wait, we have to back things up again?   It's getting so hard to keep up.

Reductive claims are super fun  aren't they. And you can keep up fine. I have faith in you! And yes, this user can find a few sources to back up the their claims of bs rallied at this Professor and author. Also just looked up his book:

 

Hermeneutics of Violence: A Four-Dimensional Conception

 

https://books.google.ca/books/about/A_Hermeneutics_of_Violence.html?id=W1G_DwAAQBAJ&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y

 

I might actually pick this up.  Lol

[Canuckle]

55 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

So for Isreal to be committing genocide on the Palestinian people that means there should be less of them right ?

 

 

From 1992 to 2022 the Palestinian population in Palestine has increased by 1.98 million people.

 

 

These are a bit dated but the population has been growing at the expected rate.

If it continues there will be a range of problems the Palestinian people will face.

 

https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-united-nations-palestinian-territories-gaza-strip-0b9fbb989fc2411495afd811da4ac6d0 

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-population-idUSKBN1491QJ 

 

Note the projections for 2050 ?

 

 

And if you haven't seen my posts condemning the illegal settlements, I condemn them.

 

If population is all we're looking at to determine what does or does not constitute genocide, we're going to get an incomplete picture. We can get caught up in definitional hairsplitting, or we can look at the hard facts of state actions and the policies therein.

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

 Beautiful but.... not the sharpest tool in the shed. Lol.  ever listened to interviews with her?   *Shudder*

Listen to what now? Don't tell me you watched Halle Barry's Catwoman with the sound on? 

 

(Just some jokes to lighten this thread up)

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

If population is all we're looking at to determine what does or does not constitute genocide, we're going to get an incomplete picture. We can get caught up in definitional hairsplitting, or we can look at the hard facts of state actions and the policies therein.

 

I have looked at the hard facts.

I have stated many times in a few threads on this and the old board that I disagree with some of the actions/ policies of the Isreali government and condemn the illegal settlements.

However these actions don't amount to genocide.

It's kinda insulting to ethnic groups including the Jews that have been victims of actual genocide.  

 

You should stop with the sly little digs in some of your other posts, they detract from your arguments. 

[Canuckle]

8 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I have looked at the hard facts.

I have stated many times in a few threads on this and the old board that I disagree with some of the actions/ policies of the Isreali government and condemn the illegal settlements.

However these actions don't amount to genocide.

It's kinda insulting to ethnic groups including the Jews that have been victims of actual genocide.  

 

You should stop with the sly little digs in some of your other posts, they detract from your arguments. 

 

My digs?  Oh, my dear friend.

 

And it's interesting you frame it that way. Speaking about genocide of any population is not an attack on those that have had previous horrors perpetrated on them.

 

I choose my words carefully. I don't say things for no reason. Yes, Genocide has been perpetrated on Palestinians for decades and decades.

 

And wait... I thought you were a fellow Noam Chomsky reader? You ever read his 2010 book "Gaza in Crisis: Reflections on the US-Israeli War Against the Palestinians." ?

 

Here's an except pp. 287-291:

 

"A GENOCIDAL POLICY?

The evidence collected by Israeli-based human rights organizations, international agencies, and media (although the Israelis barred the media from entering the Strip) was perceived by many to be far more serious than just war crimes. Some referred to it as genocide. It is not often that the president of the UN General Assembly would accuse a member state of genocide. But when the Israeli Army bombarded the civilian population of Gaza, invoking the right of self-defense against terrorists launching missiles into civilian targets, Miguel D’Escoto Brockmann did not hesitate to describe such actions as genocide. As a former Roman Catholic priest and Nicaragua’s foreign minister his views carry considerable weight. Needless to say, these remarks were promptly dismissed by the Israelis as anti-Semitic, the standard reaction to such accusations. Had his voice been a lonely one in the wilderness, it would have had little resonance, but it was joined by similar expressions of outrage by other senior politicians, especially outside the Western corridors of power, who chose the term genocide as the only way to describe the tragedy visited upon the people of Gaza.

 

D’Escoto Brockmann’s reaction came before the full-scale destruction of homes, schools, and hospitals in many parts of Gaza. A week later, the Turkish columnist and author Oktay Akbal described the Israeli actions as the “Real Genocide.”

 

The Israeli daily Haaretz reported on December 29, 2008, that government and opposition leaders across the globe, but mainly in Southeast Asia, Africa, and South America, referred to the atrocities (even before they fully transpired) as genocide.

 

There were strong criticisms from the West as well, but these sources were more cautious in using the term genocide. Nonetheless, the G-word frequently surfaced in the commentaries conveyed through alternative media, bloggers, and Web sites. Even before the Gaza operations in January 2009 occasional references were made to Israeli armed forces committing acts of genocide. “Some 1.4 million people, mostly children, are piled up in one of the most densely populated regions of the world, with no freedom of movement, no place to run and no space to hide,” UN relief official Jan Egeland and Swedish foreign minister Jan Eliasson noted of the Israeli forays into Gaza, writing in Le Figaro. Journalist John Pilger wrote in the New Statesman, “A genocide is engulfing the people of Gaza while silence engulfs its bystanders.” that same month repeated Israeli actions against the children in Gaza prompted similar expressions of concern from some unlikely sources: the internationally renowned jurist and Princeton professor of law, Richard Falk, wrote in that year that “it is especially painful for me, as an American Jew, to feel compelled to portray the ongoing and intensifying abuse of the Palestinian people by Israel through a reliance on such an inflammatory metaphor as ‘holocaust.’”

 

The January 2009 events were referred to in similar terms by the pro-Western Arab media organs. One such source was the Dubai-based satellite network Al-Arabia. On December 28, 2008, when the massive Israeli killing had just begun, although already resulting in unprecedented numbers of dead children and women, the network reported the popular protests around the world against the Israeli actions. The headline was “World Stands United against ‘Genocide’ in Gaza.” It reported that “protestors from Denmark, Turkey, Pakistan, Cyprus, Bahrain, Kuwait, Iran, Sudan and even Israel all called for an end to what most demonstrators termed as ‘genocide’ in Gaza.” This was not the mainstream media’s opinion in the West, nor was it voiced in such a manner by any members of the political elite in North America or Europe. But within the balance of power between hegemonic and counterhegemonic voices, the latter included senior politicians in the rest of the world, the widest coalitions of the political left and of human rights organizations in the West, coupled with some influential voices from within the Western media. The journalist John Pilger referred to the events in Gaza as genocide in the New Statesman again on January 21, 2009.

 

In the aftermath of the event more voices joined in. Participants in the main demonstration in London on January 19, 2009, carried placards about the “Genocide in Gaza.” Similar banners were raised in a massive demonstration in Copenhagen. Elsewhere, the Malaysian foreign minister in April 2009 described the attack on Gaza as genocide.

 

One can understand why Judge Goldstone refrained from such language. His report as noted corroborates the evidence collected by those who described these policies as genocidal but sums them up as war crimes that require further investigation. Goldstone’s report also uses the same language for the Hamas missile attack on Israel. This seems to be more lip service than a genuine point. The imbalance of the aggressors’ power and destruction and the victims’ pathetic military response deserves different language.

 

Moreover, when one reads the thorough and brave report of Judge Goldstone, one should remember that the 1,500 killed, thousands of wounded, and tens of thousands who lost their homes do not tell the whole story. It is the decision to employ such fierce military force in a civilian space that should be discussed. This kind of firepower can only produce the kind of horrific destruction we have seen in Gaza. It was used for this purpose. The nature of the military operations also displayed an Israeli military wish to experiment with new weapons, all intended to kill civilians as part of what the former chief of the army’s general staff, Moshe Ya’alon, termed as the need to brand in the Palestinian consciousness the fearsome might of the Israeli Army."

 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

My digs?  Oh, my dear friend.

 

And it's interesting you frame it that way. Speaking about genocide of any population is not an attack on those that have had previous horrors perpetrated on them.

 

I choose my words carefully. I don't say things for no reason. Yes, Genocide has been perpetrated on Palestinians for decades and decades.

 

And wait... I thought you were a fellow Noam Chomsky reader? You ever read his 2010 book "Gaza in Crisis: Reflections on the US-Israeli War Against the Palestinians." ?

 

Here's an except pp. 287-291:

 

"A GENOCIDAL POLICY?

The evidence collected by Israeli-based human rights organizations, international agencies, and media (although the Israelis barred the media from entering the Strip) was perceived by many to be far more serious than just war crimes. Some referred to it as genocide. It is not often that the president of the UN General Assembly would accuse a member state of genocide. But when the Israeli Army bombarded the civilian population of Gaza, invoking the right of self-defense against terrorists launching missiles into civilian targets, Miguel D’Escoto Brockmann did not hesitate to describe such actions as genocide. As a former Roman Catholic priest and Nicaragua’s foreign minister his views carry considerable weight. Needless to say, these remarks were promptly dismissed by the Israelis as anti-Semitic, the standard reaction to such accusations. Had his voice been a lonely one in the wilderness, it would have had little resonance, but it was joined by similar expressions of outrage by other senior politicians, especially outside the Western corridors of power, who chose the term genocide as the only way to describe the tragedy visited upon the people of Gaza.

 

D’Escoto Brockmann’s reaction came before the full-scale destruction of homes, schools, and hospitals in many parts of Gaza. A week later, the Turkish columnist and author Oktay Akbal described the Israeli actions as the “Real Genocide.”

 

The Israeli daily Haaretz reported on December 29, 2008, that government and opposition leaders across the globe, but mainly in Southeast Asia, Africa, and South America, referred to the atrocities (even before they fully transpired) as genocide.

 

There were strong criticisms from the West as well, but these sources were more cautious in using the term genocide. Nonetheless, the G-word frequently surfaced in the commentaries conveyed through alternative media, bloggers, and Web sites. Even before the Gaza operations in January 2009 occasional references were made to Israeli armed forces committing acts of genocide. “Some 1.4 million people, mostly children, are piled up in one of the most densely populated regions of the world, with no freedom of movement, no place to run and no space to hide,” UN relief official Jan Egeland and Swedish foreign minister Jan Eliasson noted of the Israeli forays into Gaza, writing in Le Figaro. Journalist John Pilger wrote in the New Statesman, “A genocide is engulfing the people of Gaza while silence engulfs its bystanders.” that same month repeated Israeli actions against the children in Gaza prompted similar expressions of concern from some unlikely sources: the internationally renowned jurist and Princeton professor of law, Richard Falk, wrote in that year that “it is especially painful for me, as an American Jew, to feel compelled to portray the ongoing and intensifying abuse of the Palestinian people by Israel through a reliance on such an inflammatory metaphor as ‘holocaust.’”

 

The January 2009 events were referred to in similar terms by the pro-Western Arab media organs. One such source was the Dubai-based satellite network Al-Arabia. On December 28, 2008, when the massive Israeli killing had just begun, although already resulting in unprecedented numbers of dead children and women, the network reported the popular protests around the world against the Israeli actions. The headline was “World Stands United against ‘Genocide’ in Gaza.” It reported that “protestors from Denmark, Turkey, Pakistan, Cyprus, Bahrain, Kuwait, Iran, Sudan and even Israel all called for an end to what most demonstrators termed as ‘genocide’ in Gaza.” This was not the mainstream media’s opinion in the West, nor was it voiced in such a manner by any members of the political elite in North America or Europe. But within the balance of power between hegemonic and counterhegemonic voices, the latter included senior politicians in the rest of the world, the widest coalitions of the political left and of human rights organizations in the West, coupled with some influential voices from within the Western media. The journalist John Pilger referred to the events in Gaza as genocide in the New Statesman again on January 21, 2009.

 

In the aftermath of the event more voices joined in. Participants in the main demonstration in London on January 19, 2009, carried placards about the “Genocide in Gaza.” Similar banners were raised in a massive demonstration in Copenhagen. Elsewhere, the Malaysian foreign minister in April 2009 described the attack on Gaza as genocide.

 

One can understand why Judge Goldstone refrained from such language. His report as noted corroborates the evidence collected by those who described these policies as genocidal but sums them up as war crimes that require further investigation. Goldstone’s report also uses the same language for the Hamas missile attack on Israel. This seems to be more lip service than a genuine point. The imbalance of the aggressors’ power and destruction and the victims’ pathetic military response deserves different language.

 

Moreover, when one reads the thorough and brave report of Judge Goldstone, one should remember that the 1,500 killed, thousands of wounded, and tens of thousands who lost their homes do not tell the whole story. It is the decision to employ such fierce military force in a civilian space that should be discussed. This kind of firepower can only produce the kind of horrific destruction we have seen in Gaza. It was used for this purpose. The nature of the military operations also displayed an Israeli military wish to experiment with new weapons, all intended to kill civilians as part of what the former chief of the army’s general staff, Moshe Ya’alon, termed as the need to brand in the Palestinian consciousness the fearsome might of the Israeli Army."

 

 

Love me some Noam, haven't read that particular book.

I take note of the question mark. 

 

I have also posted articles about how Isreali arms companies use the occupied territories as testing grounds for new " technology ".

From memory it was in the Ukraine thread on the old board. 

 

A lot of the points you bring up in regard to some Isrealis can be also applied to many Palestinians.

Their stated goal is to eradicate all Jews everywhere.

They are stating the actually want to commit genocide.

 

" The victim's pathetic response "

That's so offensive when put in context with the October the 7th attack.

You do realise some of the horrific acts that Hamas committed on that day and the days after ?

 

Bottom line, which you continue to refuse to accept is that the Palestinian  population is growing, quite substantially.

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Will I get the gears from Ilunga for quoting Nixon?  FTR, its more about reality than whether I like Dixon or not...

 

 

[Canuckle]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

Love me some Noam, haven't read that particular book.

I take note of the question mark. 

 

I have also posted articles about how Isreali arms companies use the occupied territories as testing grounds for new " technology ".

From memory it was in the Ukraine thread on the old board. 

 

A lot of the points you bring up in regard to some Isrealis can be also applied to many Palestinians.

Their stated goal is to eradicate all Jews everywhere.

They are stating the actually want to commit genocide.

 

" The victim's pathetic response "

That's so offensive when put in context with the October the 7th attack.

You do realise some of the horrific acts that Hamas committed on that day and the days after ?

 

Bottom line, which you continue to refuse to accept is that the Palestinian  population is growing, quite substantially.

 

It's interesting to see what sections you honed in on and why.

 

How about these parts?

 

"It is not often that the president of the UN General Assembly would accuse a member state of genocide. But when the Israeli Army bombarded the civilian population of Gaza, invoking the right of self-defense against terrorists launching missiles into civilian targets, Miguel D’Escoto Brockmann did not hesitate to describe such actions as genocide."

 

Sound familiar?

 

"...the internationally renowned jurist and Princeton professor of law, Richard Falk, wrote in that year that “it is especially painful for me, as an American Jew, to feel compelled to portray the ongoing and intensifying abuse of the Palestinian people by Israel through a reliance on such an inflammatory metaphor as ‘holocaust.’”

 

Coming from a Law Professor of Jewish faith should make you pause, no?

 

"Goldstone’s report also uses the same language for the Hamas missile attack on Israel. This seems to be more lip service than a genuine point. The imbalance of the aggressors’ power and destruction and the victims’ pathetic military response deserves different language."

 

Yes, yes it does.

 

"...Moreover, when one reads the thorough and brave report of Judge Goldstone, one should remember that the 1,500 killed, thousands of wounded, and tens of thousands who lost their homes do not tell the whole story. It is the decision to employ such fierce military force in a civilian space that should be discussed. This kind of firepower can only produce the kind of horrific destruction we have seen in Gaza. It was used for this purpose."

 

I agree, Noam.

 

Care to discuss that last section as Noam suggests?

 

As for claims against the g word in Palestine, you need a whole lot more than reference to "population growth" to determine, let alone dismiss, charges of genocidal state policy. 

 

Secondly, this book is from 2010. I ask, what exactly has really changed here? Sadly, the answer is: not much. Israeli state doing exactly the same thing right now.

 

Also, whataboutisms won't work with me friend. Never once have I condoned the actions of Hamas. Nevertheless, the focus here is on Zionist Israeli state policy and their subsequent actions throughout. It didnt start last month--It's been going on for decades. And yes, it boils down to genocide.

 

But can you believe whatever you like.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Canuckle

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

 

It's interesting to see what sections you honed in on and why.

 

How about these parts?

 

"It is not often that the president of the UN General Assembly would accuse a member state of genocide. But when the Israeli Army bombarded the civilian population of Gaza, invoking the right of self-defense against terrorists launching missiles into civilian targets, Miguel D’Escoto Brockmann did not hesitate to describe such actions as genocide."

 

Sound familiar?

 

"...the internationally renowned jurist and Princeton professor of law, Richard Falk, wrote in that year that “it is especially painful for me, as an American Jew, to feel compelled to portray the ongoing and intensifying abuse of the Palestinian people by Israel through a reliance on such an inflammatory metaphor as ‘holocaust.’”

 

Coming from a Law Professor of Jewish faith should make you pause, no?

 

"Goldstone’s report also uses the same language for the Hamas missile attack on Israel. This seems to be more lip service than a genuine point. The imbalance of the aggressors’ power and destruction and the victims’ pathetic military response deserves different language."

 

Yes, yes it does.

 

"...Moreover, when one reads the thorough and brave report of Judge Goldstone, one should remember that the 1,500 killed, thousands of wounded, and tens of thousands who lost their homes do not tell the whole story. It is the decision to employ such fierce military force in a civilian space that should be discussed. This kind of firepower can only produce the kind of horrific destruction we have seen in Gaza. It was used for this purpose."

 

I agree, Noam.

 

Care to discuss that last section as Noam suggests?

 

As for claims against the g word in Palestine, you need a whole lot more than reference to "population growth" to determine, let alone dismiss, charges of genocidal state policy. 

 

Secondly, this book is from 2010. I ask, what exactly has really changed here? Sadly, the answer is: not much. Israeli state doing exactly the same thing right now.

 

Also, whataboutisms won't work with me friend. Never once have I condoned the actions of Hamas. Nevertheless, the focus here is on Zionist Israeli state policy and their subsequent actions throughout. It didnt start last month--It's been going on for decades. And yes, it boils down to genocide.

 

But can you believe whatever you like.

 

 

As I have stated many times in a few threads about this, and now for the second time with you, I don't agree with some of the actions of the Isreali government, the military and I condemn the illegal settlements.

 

What aboutism ?

You are claiming that Isreal is committing genocide when, not just Hamas but many other Palestinians call for the eridaction/ genocide of Jews, not just in Palestine but everywhere on the planet.

 

 

I believe facts.

In relation to the topic I have called you out on, your claim that Isreal is committing genocide, this is false.

The Palestinian population in Palestine is actually increasing. 

This is a fact. 

 

Let me remind you of the meaning of the word genocide again 

 

Oxford languages 

 

" The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group " 

 

Again that group, the Palestinians are getting larger. 

 

So I don't believe that Isreal is not committing genocide, I know for a fact. 

 

 

This is tit for tat BS, this side is committing genocide, that side wants to, the reality is hate that can be directly traced back to this  conflict is impacting many Jews and Muslims around the world

Anti semitism and Islamophobia are on the rise 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/7/islamophobia-anti-semitism-rises-in-europe-amid-israel-hamas-war-official

 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/29/observer-view-on-rising-antisemitism-and-islamophobia

 

So maybe focusing on a message of peace instead of focusing on a message that will divide and is the cause of hate is better, yes ?

[Boudrias]

7 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Come on, brother, you are trying to use logic arguing with someone who doesn’t understand what logic is. You should try ignore button - it’s so refreshing  

Israel is faced with harsh realities that leave few options. Geopolitical reality is that Israel cannot truly trust any of the neighbors. None. Israel cannot really trust most countries in the world. History for the Jewish people is absolutely brutal. That history produced the German death camps and convinced the world that a Jewish homeland was absolutely needed. Israel was created by the world. A deal was offered to Palestinians and they declined and they along with Egypt, Jordan and Syria tried to destroy a fledgling Israel. Arab treatment of Jews is well known. 

 

Saudi Arabia is convening a Arab summit today and Iran is included. IMHO I don't think any of these countries give two hoots about the fate of Palestinians on the West Bank or Gaza. Palestinians have been used as pawns in ME politics for decades. They will continue to be. Israel has pretty much a blank check on dealing with Hamas. Innocent Palestinians will die in the process. That will be accepted.

 

Geopolitical reality is that Israel has nukes and can deliver them. Sunni Arabs are faced with Persian Iran having nukes in the near future. Who do the Sunnis distrust more the Iranians or the Israelis? Jews don't try to convert Muslims to Judaism. Shiites believe Sunnis have corrupted Islam and have fought wars to change Sunni governments in the ME. No trust there at all. Meanwhile the Saudis realize the heyday of oil is ending. Their strategy to evolve from oil dependency is a high tech ME economy with Israel being a part of it. Israel leads in world tech in many fields. 

 

I would be very surprised if Israel ha not told their neighbors that they will use nukes to defend themselves if needed. They know that what happened on Oct. 7th was simply a small scale of what would happen if their borders were breeched. They can never allow Palestinians back into Israel. I am amazed that 2 1/2 million Arabs live inside Israel now. It will take decades of peace for any trust to be developed. Ultimately Israel can never trust Arabs.  

[Bob Long]

9 hours ago, Super19 said:

Yes, theorize, critical think. Where were the weapons of mass destruction? And you you know this wasn't the first strike in this decades long conflict, your narrative almost no person on the street agrees with, so why try it?

 

 

 

 

No it isn't the first strike. It's one of many strikes by bad governing bodies or so-called representatives of Palestinians that continually let them down.

 

What successes have groups like Hamas had for it's people? None, they just bring hardship.

 

 

[Bob Long]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Love me some Noam, haven't read that particular book.

I take note of the question mark. 

 

I have also posted articles about how Isreali arms companies use the occupied territories as testing grounds for new " technology ".

From memory it was in the Ukraine thread on the old board. 

 

A lot of the points you bring up in regard to some Isrealis can be also applied to many Palestinians.

Their stated goal is to eradicate all Jews everywhere.

They are stating the actually want to commit genocide.

 

" The victim's pathetic response "

That's so offensive when put in context with the October the 7th attack.

You do realise some of the horrific acts that Hamas committed on that day and the days after ?

 

Bottom line, which you continue to refuse to accept is that the Palestinian  population is growing, quite substantially.

 

 

 

 

Noam has been anti-Israel for decades, he's hardly an unbiased view. 

 

Unfortunately I think our friend here is a good example of the far left today, everything described in extreme terms. There's no room for debate, it's all predetermined dogma.