Hamas attacking Israel

[Satchmo]

5 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Hopefully this forum allows for diverse opinions.

 

I have 100 % of the time - stated it is my opinion that Hamas are terrorists and the Israel has every right to exist as a State.

 

Where we disagree on is that in my opinion   Israel needs to be an inclusive country that does not oppress its  minorities.

The current IDF offensive on Hamas in Gaza needs to not target innocent civilians ( women and children)

Collective punishment is a war crime. 

 

The mods on this site do a great job keeping everyone respectful here , despite the hot topics that get discussed.

 

Hopefully  on this forum alternative views are not driven off this forum.  Discussion is important.  All of kinds of views if they are not offensive should be acceptable  here.

 

 

 

I think this is the second time If said to you 'If that is your main point then run with it'.

 

It's all the other stuff you've said, and how it was said, that has people challenging you.  It may also be because you seem to sidestep tougher questions and just reply with a call for peace and tranquility.

 

Sill wondering what you think about this: 

 

you seem to think that Israel should not retaliate at all for the attack on Oct 7th and instead be held responsible for it

 

 

[moosehead]

11 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I think this is the second time If said to you 'If that is your main point then run with it'.

 

It's all the other stuff you've said, and how it was said, that has people challenging you.  It may also be because you seem to sidestep tougher questions and just reply with a call for peace and tranquility.

 

Sill wondering what you think about this: 

 

you seem to think that Israel should not retaliate at all for the attack on Oct 7th and instead be held responsible for it

 

 

 

My opinion.  Hopefully it does offend you or others here. 

 

Israel has largely  helped created Hamas or if you prefer the conditions that encourage the growth of Hamas. 

 

So yes Israel has the need, the right, the obligation, the necessity to destroy Hamas.

Just needs to be done in a way that does not use Collective punishment,  harm innocent civilians,  kill women and children. 

 

Of course Hamas is responsible for the terror attack on Oct 7th.    Just like Israel is responsible for the oppression, occupation , illegal land seizures ,

  lack of funding to palestinian communites....  over  the last 50 years. 

 

I consider my views very moderate of this conflict.  I am hopeful for peace in the region for all. 

 

Basically in a nutshell

 

This relationship is complicated.   If it was a marriage...   time for both parties to get couples counselling.  

Edited November 9, 2023 by moosehead

[Elias Pettersson]

Breaking: CNN Cuts Ties with Freelancer after Photo Emerges of Him Sharing a Kiss with Hamas Leader

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

 

My opinion.  Hopefully it does offend you or others here. 

 

Israel has largely  helped created Hamas or if you prefer the conditions that encourage the growth of Hamas. 

 

So yes Israel has the need, the right, the obligation, the necessity to destroy Hamas.

Just needs to be done in a way that does not use Collective punishment,  harm innocent civilians,  kill women and children. 

 

Of course Hams is responsible for the terror attack on Oct 7th.    Just like Israel is responsible for the oppression, occupation , illegal land seizures ,  lack of funding to palestinian communites....  over  the last 50 years. 

 

Basically in a nutshell

 

This relationship is complicated.   If it was a marriage...   time for both parties to get couples counselling.  

Thankyou.

 

I agree with some of it, disagree with some of it, and have a partial agreement or disagreement on the rest.

 

But we are all entitled to our opinions, right?

[Optimist Prime]

While it is somewhat offtopic, I am highly curious who here has never posted anything about hockey or the Canucks since we migrated here from the old CDC forums?

 

It is nice to have the offtopic forums as an aside to our usual topic of literally the Vancouver Canucks fandom we share and/or the love of the sport of Hockey in all its forms, I am just curious if anyone here has yet to post anything in the various Canucks threads?

[Elias Pettersson]

Israel to begin daily 4-hour pauses allowing Gaza evacuations, U.S. says - National | Globalnews.ca

 

Israel to begin daily 4-hour pauses allowing Gaza evacuations, U.S. says

 

Israel will begin daily four-hour pauses in the northern Gaza Strip on Thursday to enable Palestinians to flee hostilities in the coastal enclave, the White House said after President Joe Biden said he had sought pauses of three days or more.

 

White House spokesman John Kirby announced the pauses and the opening of two humanitarian corridors in northern Gaza to allow Palestinians to seek safety from Israel’s military operations.

 

Biden told reporters as he left the White House he had sought a longer pause. “Yes,” he said. “I’ve asked for a pause longer than three days.”

 

Asked if he was frustrated with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Biden said, “It’s taken a little longer than I hoped.”

 

The pauses emerged from discussions between U.S and Israeli officials in recent days, including talks Biden had with Netanyahu, Kirby told reporters.

 

Biden faces intense pressure from a number of human rights groups to do more to help Palestinians who are dying by the thousands under an Israeli bombardment in retaliation for the deadly Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Israel.

 

Israel has not agreed to any ceasefires, but will continue to allow brief, localized pauses to let in humanitarian aid, the Israeli military said on Thursday.

 

Israel’s defence minister Yoav Gallant said on Thursday that the military was undertaking “localised, pinpoint measures” in Gaza to enable Palestinian refugees to flee the fighting with Hamas, in an apparent reference to the four-hour pauses announced by Washington.

 

“These things do not detract from the war fighting,” Gallant said when asked by a reporter about the U.S. announcement, which he did not directly address.

 

The war would continue until Hamas is toppled and hostages held in Gaza are freed, he said.

 

“We understand that Israel will begin to implement four-hour pauses in areas of northern Gaza each day, with an announcement to be made three hours beforehand,” Kirby said.

 

The pauses would allow people to get out of harm’s way and for deliveries of humanitarian aid and could be used as a way to get hostages out of Gaza.

 

Palestinian Hamas gunmen killed 1,400 people and took 240 hostage during an Oct. 7 incursion into Israel, Israel has said. Israeli has responded with an air bombardment and ground invasion seeking to oust the Islamist group from Gaza.

 

Officials with the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry said 10,812 Gaza residents had been killed as of Thursday.

 

Kirby said the pauses could help with transitions for any hostage release, as well as for humanitarian purposes.

 

“We’ve been told by the Israelis that there will be no military operations in these areas over the duration of the pause, and that this process is starting today,” Kirby said.

 

He called the news a step in the right direction.

 

“We think these are significant first steps here and obviously we want to see them continued for as long as they are needed,” he added.

 

Kirby said a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas militants is not in order because it would help Hamas and “legitimize what they did on Oct. 7 and we simply are not going to stand for that at this time.”

 

Israel is also opening two humanitarian corridors in northern Gaza, Kirby said.

 

The first has been opened for a few hours for several days, allowing thousands of people to reach safer areas in the south, he said. The second corridor, along a coastal road, will allow more people to reach safer areas in the south.

 

The United States wants to see more trucks carrying humanitarian aid get into Gaza, aiming for 150 trucks a day, Kirby said. “We need to see more soon, he said.

 

[Bob Long]

15 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Israel to begin daily 4-hour pauses allowing Gaza evacuations, U.S. says - National | Globalnews.ca

 

Israel to begin daily 4-hour pauses allowing Gaza evacuations, U.S. says

 

Israel will begin daily four-hour pauses in the northern Gaza Strip on Thursday to enable Palestinians to flee hostilities in the coastal enclave, the White House said after President Joe Biden said he had sought pauses of three days or more.

 

White House spokesman John Kirby announced the pauses and the opening of two humanitarian corridors in northern Gaza to allow Palestinians to seek safety from Israel’s military operations.

 

Biden told reporters as he left the White House he had sought a longer pause. “Yes,” he said. “I’ve asked for a pause longer than three days.”

 

Asked if he was frustrated with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Biden said, “It’s taken a little longer than I hoped.”

 

The pauses emerged from discussions between U.S and Israeli officials in recent days, including talks Biden had with Netanyahu, Kirby told reporters.

 

Biden faces intense pressure from a number of human rights groups to do more to help Palestinians who are dying by the thousands under an Israeli bombardment in retaliation for the deadly Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Israel.

 

Israel has not agreed to any ceasefires, but will continue to allow brief, localized pauses to let in humanitarian aid, the Israeli military said on Thursday.

 

Israel’s defence minister Yoav Gallant said on Thursday that the military was undertaking “localised, pinpoint measures” in Gaza to enable Palestinian refugees to flee the fighting with Hamas, in an apparent reference to the four-hour pauses announced by Washington.

 

“These things do not detract from the war fighting,” Gallant said when asked by a reporter about the U.S. announcement, which he did not directly address.

 

The war would continue until Hamas is toppled and hostages held in Gaza are freed, he said.

 

“We understand that Israel will begin to implement four-hour pauses in areas of northern Gaza each day, with an announcement to be made three hours beforehand,” Kirby said.

 

The pauses would allow people to get out of harm’s way and for deliveries of humanitarian aid and could be used as a way to get hostages out of Gaza.

 

Palestinian Hamas gunmen killed 1,400 people and took 240 hostage during an Oct. 7 incursion into Israel, Israel has said. Israeli has responded with an air bombardment and ground invasion seeking to oust the Islamist group from Gaza.

 

Officials with the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry said 10,812 Gaza residents had been killed as of Thursday.

 

Kirby said the pauses could help with transitions for any hostage release, as well as for humanitarian purposes.

 

“We’ve been told by the Israelis that there will be no military operations in these areas over the duration of the pause, and that this process is starting today,” Kirby said.

 

He called the news a step in the right direction.

 

“We think these are significant first steps here and obviously we want to see them continued for as long as they are needed,” he added.

 

Kirby said a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas militants is not in order because it would help Hamas and “legitimize what they did on Oct. 7 and we simply are not going to stand for that at this time.”

 

Israel is also opening two humanitarian corridors in northern Gaza, Kirby said.

 

The first has been opened for a few hours for several days, allowing thousands of people to reach safer areas in the south, he said. The second corridor, along a coastal road, will allow more people to reach safer areas in the south.

 

The United States wants to see more trucks carrying humanitarian aid get into Gaza, aiming for 150 trucks a day, Kirby said. “We need to see more soon, he said.

 

 

Good to see. It must mean things are going well.

[Satchmo]

12 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

While it is somewhat offtopic, I am highly curious who here has never posted anything about hockey or the Canucks since we migrated here from the old CDC forums?

 

It is nice to have the offtopic forums as an aside to our usual topic of literally the Vancouver Canucks fandom we share and/or the love of the sport of Hockey in all its forms, I am just curious if anyone here has yet to post anything in the various Canucks threads?

I've had the same thought.   

 

I've posted some hockey stuff but not that much.   I lurked on CDC for years, reading but having no real wish to join up and post.   I only joined when the Ukraine thread was hidden away.

 

I love hockey, watch every game, but I never felt I had (or really wanted) the in depth knowledge some others do.  Fear of voicing an uninformed opinion maybe?  (though that fear doesn't seem to show it self much in my off topic posts.)

[Bob Long]

15 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Fear of voicing an uninformed opinion maybe?  (though that fear doesn't seem to show it self much in my off topic posts.)

 

Nah don't let that hold you back, I've been doing it for years. 

[Yoshiyoshi]

37 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

While it is somewhat offtopic, I am highly curious who here has never posted anything about hockey or the Canucks since we migrated here from the old CDC forums?

 

It is nice to have the offtopic forums as an aside to our usual topic of literally the Vancouver Canucks fandom we share and/or the love of the sport of Hockey in all its forms, I am just curious if anyone here has yet to post anything in the various Canucks threads?

I havent paid attention to hockey since the end of 2020, just lost interest for the most part. There is only about 5 threads that i have paid attention to in the past 3 years. Sometimes I take a look at the hockey stuff to see what trades happened but thats about it.

[Taxi]

2 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

 

It is neither pointless nor futile. Just because something is extremely difficult does not mean it cannot be done or should not be done. Some will get away, they always do, but many of the ones who are known will be caught or killed. Resources that Hamas has will be destroyed or captured, it will take them a long time to recover if they are even able to. Judging by your post history you seem to think that Israel should not retaliate at all for the attack on Oct 7th and instead be held responsible for it but it doesnt matter what Israel may have done in the past it does not justify what Hamas did on the 7th. There will be no peace as long as Hamas exists in Gaza now.

 

Israel is currently surrounded by hostile armies, including Hamas, Hezbollah, and the various groups in Syria. They are largely funded by Iran. There's no way for Israel to ever be safe from them. So it's very much an issue of managing them. If they can set Hamas back 10-20 years, it makes a massive difference to Israel's day to day security.

 

Iran has spent decades grooming these top Hamas officials to fulfill various roles from weapons making, to recruitment, to logistics, etc... these people aren't easily replaced. Every commander that goes down is a major loss to Hamas.

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 hour ago, moosehead said:

 

 My opinion.  Hopefully it does offend you or others here. 

 

1. Israel has largely  helped created Hamas or if you prefer the conditions that encourage the growth of Hamas. 

 

2. So yes Israel has the need, the right, the obligation, the necessity to destroy Hamas.

Just needs to be done in a way that does not use Collective punishment,  harm innocent civilians,  kill women and children. 

 

3. Of course Hamas is responsible for the terror attack on Oct 7th.    Just like Israel is responsible for the oppression, occupation , illegal land seizures ,

  lack of funding to palestinian communites....  over  the last 50 years. 

 

4. I consider my views very moderate of this conflict.  I am hopeful for peace in the region for all. 

 

5. Basically in a nutshell

 

This relationship is complicated.   If it was a marriage...   time for both parties to get couples counselling.  

Ok I dont know how to break up a quoted section to reply better so im just gonna number the sentences/paragraphs in the quote and respond that way.

 

1.) Cant disagree with this

2.) I dont know of a way it could be done that doesnt result in civilian casualties, Israel did give an evacuation order and extended the deadline for that at least once, and they are now pausing the ground offensive to allow time each day for civilians to evacuate. Airstrikes on rocket launching positions seems to be the most surgical option to deal with that, I dont know of a better way to stop those that would result in less collateral damage. I dont know of a way that Israel could do any more to avoid civilian casualties other than just not fighting at all (Which imo is not a proper choice for them to make.) As to the collective punishment statement, again I know of no way to conduct a siege that doesnt collectively punish people.

3.) Ok, this is actually 2 separate things though. Oct 7th attack and the response, and Israeli repression of Palestine. The latter cannot be corrected until the former is dealt with and Hamas does not want peace so anything less than what Israel is doing to dig them out will only result in a longer drawn out conflict and more unnecessary deaths in the long run. In my opinion it is better to end the conflict quickly through extreme force than it would be to drag it out in the hopes of reducing civilian casualties. I personally believe but do not have data to back it up right now that excessive concern over civilian casualties in previous conflicts has lead to a greater loss of civilian life over the long term. As to the long term peace, I dont have a good solution to that

 

4./5. No response here, not sure why i bothered numbering them.

 

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Burnaby is an NDP hotbed. Doesn't surprise me at all. 

 

There is an Ismaili Mosque many of my friends go to & the Masjid Al Salaam new (ish) Mosque, both at Burnaby Lakes. I think its the largest in Vancouver? A friend Kamaal lives off Canada Way to be closeby, part of the community. Plus, I believe, a Sunni Mosque at Metrotown.  

 

Its like asking why protests about Modi happen in Surrey...

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, moosehead said:

 

Israel has largely  helped created Hamas or if you prefer the conditions that encourage the growth of Hamas.

 

This is massively simplified, definitely overstated.

 

The US also had allegiances with Saddam Hussein, leaders that became ISIS & the Taliban.  Strategic agreements depending on circumstance.  These entities, also Hamas, surfaced for their own reasons, their own goals.  

 

My exaggeration; if they tell their neighbours kids they will spend eternity in Paradise. If they slaughter Jews with their bare hands? How easy could it be to hoodwink Bibi... 

 

As for conditions? Yes Israel obviously contributes to conditions in Gaza. Yet two state options & peace have been proposed, knocked back by Hamas & other Palestinian leaders. The chaos is actually ideal. Hamas extort all parties to carry out their idealogue. Unfortunately, to a point you are correct. Netanyahu was of the opinion that such organizations keep Palestinian growth on a self defeating cycle, weak. Such is always going to be poor politics. Shame on him!

 

Regardless, their activity was going to be simmering.   It was like he suggested tent city Main street in Gastown to a group of dealers, in the scale of the problem.  Suddenly they are organizing breaking in to local businesses, and charging said businesses a security fee...   

 

Violent crooks are going to be violent crooks.

[moosehead]

2 hours ago, Satchmo said:

Thankyou.

 

I agree with some of it, disagree with some of it, and have a partial agreement or disagreement on the rest.

 

But we are all entitled to our opinions, right?

 

Exactly like a agree with some of your posts... but certainly not all them or all parts of them. 

 

Luckily we live in a country that accepts diverse views.  Diversity makes our country stronger. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by moosehead

[Optimist Prime]

16 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This is massively simplified, definitely overstated.

 

The US also had allegiances with Saddam Hussein, leaders that became ISIS & the Taliban.  Strategic agreements depending on circumstance.  These entities, also Hamas, surfaced for their own reasons, their own goals.  

 

My exaggeration; if they tell their neighbours kids they will spend eternity in Paradise. If they slaughter Jews with their bare hands? How easy could it be to hoodwink Bibi... 

 

As for conditions? Yes Israel obviously contributes to conditions in Gaza. Yet two state options & peace have been proposed, knocked back by Hamas & other Palestinian leaders. The chaos is actually ideal. Hamas extort all parties to carry out their idealogue. Unfortunately, to a point you are correct. Netanyahu was of the opinion that such organizations keep Palestinian growth on a self defeating cycle, weak. Such is always going to be poor politics. Shame on him!

 

Regardless, their activity was going to be simmering.   It was like he suggested tent city Main street in Gastown to a group of dealers, in the scale of the problem.  Suddenly they are organizing breaking in to local businesses, and charging said businesses a security fee...   

 

Violent crooks are going to be violent crooks.

The strangest thing for me is that without the 16 attacks against Israel and countless minor altercations over the last 80 years, I am guessing there would be more than Double the current Palestinian population in the region. Quite literally the 'genocide' against the Palestinian People has been at the hands of the various entities that attacked Israel in their name. if it wasn't so sad, it would be hilariously ironic. 

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

While it is somewhat offtopic, I am highly curious who here has never posted anything about hockey or the Canucks since we migrated here from the old CDC forums?

 

It is nice to have the offtopic forums as an aside to our usual topic of literally the Vancouver Canucks fandom we share and/or the love of the sport of Hockey in all its forms, I am just curious if anyone here has yet to post anything in the various Canucks threads?

 

I post in the hockey threads occasionally, mainly my insider info on Danila  

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

I post in the hockey threads occasionally, mainly my insider info on Danila  

Klimovich Fan?

[RomanPer]

4 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Klimovich Fan?

 

Klimovich friend.

[stawns]

1 hour ago, Taxi said:

 

Israel is currently surrounded by hostile armies, including Hamas, Hezbollah, and the various groups in Syria. They are largely funded by Iran. There's no way for Israel to ever be safe from them. So it's very much an issue of managing them. If they can set Hamas back 10-20 years, it makes a massive difference to Israel's day to day security.

 

Iran has spent decades grooming these top Hamas officials to fulfill various roles from weapons making, to recruitment, to logistics, etc... these people aren't easily replaced. Every commander that goes down is a major loss to Hamas.

 

As long as they keep treating the Palestinians like animals, they are going to get the same kind of resistance from them.........I mean, no one knows that better than the Jewish population.  They need to turf BN and his far right government and start putting people in there who look at the problem from a humanitarian context.

 

The Israelis have absolutely nothing to fear from any of their neighbors or Iran, unless the US stops supplying them with the best weapons in the world.  Israel would wipe the floor with Hezbollah, Iran etc.  It's time to try the carrot for awhile and put down the stick

[Optimist Prime]

Just now, RomanPer said:

 

Klimovich friend.

Fantastic, he lit it up for Belarus in the under 18's and had a good year in Abby last season. Is he hurt right now?

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Fantastic, he lit it up for Belarus in the under 18's and had a good year in Abby last season. Is he hurt right now?

 

Yes, groin pull.

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

 

As long as they keep treating the Palestinians like animals, they are going to get the same kind of resistance from them.........I mean, no one knows that better than the Jewish population.  They need to turf BN and his far right government and start putting people in there who look at the problem from a humanitarian context.

 

The Israelis have absolutely nothing to fear from any of their neighbors or Iran, unless the US stops supplying them with the best weapons in the world.  Israel would wipe the floor with Hezbollah, Iran etc.  It's time to try the carrot for awhile and put down the stick

This is not true, as Oct 7th showed. Alot of damage can be done in a short time period if they let their guard down or miss something. While some of their neighbours have relented on their hostility, there is still a threat all around them. While i do agree that the Israeli government is part of the problem in the region, they cannot relent on their defenses because by the time help would arrive there would be massive casualties. A carrier group wont be very useful in protecting people from boots on the ground in Israeli cities.

[moosehead]

6 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

As long as they keep treating the Palestinians like animals, they are going to get the same kind of resistance from them.........I mean, no one knows that better than the Jewish population.  They need to turf BN and his far right government and start putting people in there who look at the problem from a humanitarian context.

 

The Israelis have absolutely nothing to fear from any of their neighbors or Iran, unless the US stops supplying them with the best weapons in the world.  Israel would wipe the floor with Hezbollah, Iran etc.  It's time to try the carrot for awhile and put down the stick

 

Pluralism is a concept that Israeli government officials and voters need to seriously look into......

[Optimist Prime]

17 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Pluralism is a concept that Israeli government officials and voters need to seriously look into......

From Israel's perspective, Palestinians had that and wanted more, and blew up buses and beheaded their neighbours to make their point. I know, not all of them, but cheering it on while your cousin does it is still horrid. In every one of the, and I keep saying it, 16 times that Palestinians waged war along with their allies on Israel, the coll3ctive mindset of the Palestinians was for murdering jews. Nothing in that history informs me that any Gazans should be allowed to roam free in Israel. Obviously Israel agrees, however those who were proven safe had passes, worked, shopped and used Israeli hospitals until recently. That is probably gone now too for a long while.