Hamas attacking Israel

[Satchmo]

I know some will believe/agree with the article and others won't.   Personally, I'm mostly waiting to see what happens over the next day or so.

Gaza hospital thought to house Hamas HQ not 'under siege,' IDF says

 

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2023/11/11/IDF-Gaza-hospital-houses-main-Hamas-headquarters/6621699711941/

[Odd.]

10 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

sure like its that easy. IDF are just being lazy and prefer to blow up babies, is that what I'm supposed to believe? 

Seems to be pretty easy if they can kill as many babies and kids as they have. 
 

Lazy is actually a perfect way to put it.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Odd. said:

Seems to be pretty easy if they can kill as many babies and kids as they have. 
 

Lazy is actually a perfect way to put it.

 

sorry I can't accept what you're saying, it doesn't make sense to me. There's no gain at all for the IDF to do what you're saying. 

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

6 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Let’s talk about logical consistency

 

So a group of robbers rob a bank, holds everyone as hostage, think it’s a justified reaction to blow up the entire bank to kill a couple of robbers at the expense of innocent others?

 

There’s proportionate responses, and disproportionate ones. Go in there and find Hamas, as far as reports go IDF hasn’t even gone more than 40km into Gaza. Go free your hostages if u cared about them.

 

First of all, that would be a police action not military so its not an accurate analogy. Lets modify your original premise to be more accurate. Lets say an enemy military force goes into a bank and takes everyone hostage, then establishes a command and control center in the basement. Or maybe an armory used to keep their forces in the area supplied with ammo. Something like that. Now to safely move ground forces into position would require securing the area and depending on the level of resistance that could take days or weeks. In that time how much damage would that C&C be able to cause through coordinating the enemy forces or resupplying forces as an armory? In such a situation an airstrike or artillery strike would be a proportional response. The military does not have a responsibility to protect hostages, if they can great, but they are there to fight a war not enforce laws like police officers would. Police officers are expected to risk their lives in stupid manners to protect civilians. The military is not. They are supposed to protect the nation overall and sometimes that means people get abandoned. Real life is not a superhero movie where somehow everyone can be saved.

 

On the note of hostages, is it known if Israel knows the location of the hostages yet?

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

As a foreigner I recognize the following variations of the English language.
American English, British English, Australian English.

Whatever language they speak in New Zealand, I refer to as just English.

 

Being married to a Canadian I discovered a 4th variant.
Canadian English that uses terms like knapsack, toque, chesterfield and she pronounces letter Z as zed not like zee as we do down here but in ‘Murica.

 

You are in NZ?

 

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

 

 

I don't imagine these are all Palestinian. Although estimating disproportionate amount of Arabic / Muslim protestors.  Some woke, in a positive use of the term, protestors wanting less civilian damage. All 'aware'

 

Amongst young, Palestine seems to be the 'Vietnam' of todays combination of students & hippies after peace love and happiness?  

 

It remains interesting that refugees have historically built countries like the UK, Canada, Australia, US.  And they have the freedom to protest, yet might not in, say, Iran. 

[the destroyer of worlds]

Hamas' bad choices and behavior does not give license to stoop to their level.

 

If you KNOW there are innocent women, children, and babies in a building and you choose to bomb the building, it was you who chose to kill them.  You.  Hamas didn't drop those bombs.  

 

There are ways to root out Hamas without bombing whole buildings.  Hamas needs to pay, but it is important that civilians are not collateral damage.   Kill Hamas.  Save the Palestinian people.   The innocent women  children,  and babies.  I really wonder why some are on team massacre.  

 

The Obama administration passed on a mission in Yemen at the end of his time as POTUS.   TRUMP came in and gave the green light, killing civilians and children.   

 

Sometimes the hard choice is restraint. 

 

 

[Bob Long]

15 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

Hamas' bad choices and behavior does not give license to stoop to their level.

 

If you KNOW there are innocent women, children, and babies in a building and you choose to bomb the building, it was you who chose to kill them.  You.  Hamas didn't drop those bombs.  

 

There are ways to root out Hamas without bombing whole buildings.  Hamas needs to pay, but it is important that civilians are not collateral damage.   Kill Hamas.  Save the Palestinian people.   The innocent women  children,  and babies.  I really wonder why some are on team massacre.  

 

The Obama administration passed on a mission in Yemen at the end of his time as POTUS.   TRUMP came in and gave the green light, killing civilians and children.   

 

Sometimes the hard choice is restraint. 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is on 'team massacre'. They are on team 'remove hamas'. 

 

People say there are other ways to rid Palestine of these guys, but I don't see how. 

 

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

I'd like to see what evidence there is.

Who is firing machine guns and rockets and anti tank shells at the IDF who are trying to access the hospital, which is now surrounded, if there is no hamas in the hospital?

[Bob Long]

Just now, Optimist Prime said:

Who is firing machine guns and rockets and anti tank shells at the IDF who are trying to access the hospital, which is now surrounded, if there is no hamas in the hospital?

 

the fact that you have to point this out shows where people are getting their info from. 

[the destroyer of worlds]

33 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I don't think anyone is on 'team massacre'. They are on team 'remove hamas'. 

 

People say there are other ways to rid Palestine of these guys, but I don't see how. 

 

We are on team rid of Hamas. 

 

Just I'm not on team bomb buildings to do it. 

 

Especially refugee camps and ambulances.  I don't care of a few Hamas d bags were there.  

[Yoshiyoshi]

29 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

We are on team rid of Hamas. 

 

Just I'm not on team bomb buildings to do it. 

 

Especially refugee camps and ambulances.  I don't care of a few Hamas d bags were there.  

I dont know anything about the refugee camp claim so ill ignore that for now. An ambulance is a perfectly valid target when being used by Hamas. Its just a car when not being used by paramedics. As to the bombing of buildings, what is your alternative? Sending in troops? You think that the IDF should send their soldiers into locations hardened against ground troops without softening the target first? What about locations launching rockets? Should the IDF waste time sending troops to the location that is firing rockets at civilian targets outside of Gaza? People complain about how Israel is fighting but they never say how they should be fighting instead. It is easy to be self-righteous and condemn actions in war, doesnt take much thought, just look at a headline and make a comment.

 

Sometimes I wonder what people think war is.

[Taxi]

2 hours ago, Odd. said:

He quite literally said “no justification” in regards to bombing children and women. Those are war crimes……

He didn't say anything about war crimes. He specifically says he wouldn't weigh in on that.

 

He says you should never bomb children, but provides no alternative to dealing with Hamas who hide behind children.

[Riddikulus]

35 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

We are on team rid of Hamas. 

 

Just I'm not on team bomb buildings to do it. 

 

Especially refugee camps and ambulances.  I don't care of a few Hamas d bags were there.  

Weird isn't it that our entire justice system is based on the idea of preserving the innocent, even at the expense of the guilty getting away. Somehow that goes out of the window when it comes to dropping bombs on people who we don't see as being equal to our own.

[Taxi]

2 hours ago, Odd. said:

He quite literally said “no justification” in regards to bombing children and women. Those are war crimes……

He also reaffirmed his governments friendship with Israel. He's against bombing, but is not accusing anyone of war crimes nor is he severing his ties with Israel. Do you not see how you are reading things into his comments?

[Yoshiyoshi]

5 minutes ago, Riddikulus said:

Weird isn't it that our entire justice system is based on the idea of preserving the innocent, even at the expense of the guilty getting away. Somehow that goes out of the window when it comes to dropping bombs on people who we don't see as being equal to our own.

I mean, the entire justice system goes out the window in a war. Thats why its war. If the justice system was able to be applied then the military wouldnt be involved. War is what happens when the rules of civilization are no longer able to deal with the situation. It has nothing to do with the people involved or racism like you imply.

[the destroyer of worlds]

7 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I dont know anything about the refugee camp claim so ill ignore that for now. An ambulance is a perfectly valid target when being used by Hamas. Its just a car when not being used by paramedics. As to the bombing of buildings, what is your alternative? Sending in troops? You think that the IDF should send their soldiers into locations hardened against ground troops without softening the target first? What about locations launching rockets? Should the IDF waste time sending troops to the location that is firing rockets at civilian targets outside of Gaza? People complain about how Israel is fighting but they never say how they should be fighting instead. It is easy to be self-righteous and condemn actions in war, doesnt take much thought, just look at a headline and make a comment.

 

Sometimes I wonder what people think war is.

Well, I'll take Macron and Trudeau at their word that Israel should be doing better. 

 

Yes, they should attack these positions. 

 

Yes, there are ways to root out Hamas without Bombing, especially when there are innocent women children babies in said locations.  

 

Bombing these locations just cause Hamas might be there is actually playing into Hamas' hands.  Creating conditions that breed resentment of the Israeli position.   Avoiding the Bombing and using more targeted attacks can build bridges as opposed to blowing them up.  

 

Bombing for peace is like screwing for virginity. 

[Super19]

2 minutes ago, Taxi said:

He also reaffirmed his governments friendship with Israel. He's against bombing, but is not accusing anyone of war crimes nor is he severing his ties with Israel. Do you not see how you are reading things into his comments?

Then why was Nentanyahu still so pissed with Macron simply saying what he said?

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I mean, the entire justice system goes out the window in a war. Thats why its war. If the justice system was able to be applied then the military wouldnt be involved. War is what happens when the rules of civilization are no longer able to deal with the situation. It has nothing to do with the people involved or racism like you imply.

There are still rules... International War Crimes.

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 minute ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

Well, I'll take Macron and Trudeau at their word that Israel should be doing better. 

 

Yes, they should attack these positions. 

 

Yes, there are ways to root out Hamas without Bombing, especially when there are innocent women children babies in said locations.  

 

Bombing these locations just cause Hamas might be there is actually playing into Hamas' hands.  Creating conditions that breed resentment of the Israeli position.   Avoiding the Bombing and using more targeted attacks can build bridges as opposed to blowing them up.  

 

Bombing for peace is like screwing for virginity. 

Neither of them have shown that they have the competence to be commenting on the situation. Trudeau couldnt even figure out how to evacuate our allies in Afghanistan when all it needed was to load them on a plane.

There are ways to do it without bombing, there are not smart ways however. If you are ok with sending soldiers into machine guns WW1 style that would be one way to do it. But i dont think that should be expected of the IDF, who is the defender in this conflict dont forget. Remember that Israel ordered civilians to evacuate the northern half of Gaza a month ago now. And im pretty sure they arent bombing locations because Hamas "might" be there, killing random Palestinian civilians does not benefit the IDF or Israel. As to creating resentment against Israel, there is very little Israel can do that wont cause resentment so when they are going to be hated anyways they might as well choose the way that gets the fewest Israeli soldiers killed. I am confused by what would be more targeted than an airstrike though? Thats pretty much the most precise method of hitting a target remotely.

[Riddikulus]

4 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I mean, the entire justice system goes out the window in a war. Thats why its war. If the justice system was able to be applied then the military wouldnt be involved. War is what happens when the rules of civilization are no longer able to deal with the situation. It has nothing to do with the people involved or racism like you imply.

If there were no rules during war then we wouldn't have war crimes, we might as well excuse what Russia is doing in Ukraine as a part of war. Countries would be able to use all sort of deadly chemical weapons with impunity. There would be no such thing as proportionate response. The people impacted by Hamas' attacks deserve justice, Hamas should feel the wrath of Israel but indiscriminately killing women and children to go at a few Hamas targets is just beyond the pale.

[Yoshiyoshi]

17 minutes ago, Super19 said:

There are still rules... International War Crimes.

The fact that phrase War Crimes exists shows my point. The rules of war aren't part of any real justice system and are mostly unenforceable. Basically it is a phrase that is mostly used wrongly but it is for things that are unnecessary for the prosecution of a war. War crimes only get prosecuted when the accused party is defeated in a war to such a degree that they dont have the ability to resist like Nazi Germany or in Yugoslavia? where the country no longer existed. As an example you can use the warrant against Putin. It is just a bit of political posturing to show discontent with the actions of someone.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Yoshiyoshi

[Super19]

34 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

The fact that phrase War Crimes exists shows my point. The rules of war aren't part of any real justice system and are mostly unenforceable. Basically it is a phrase that is mostly used wrongly but it is for things that are unnecessary for the prosecution of a war. War crimes only get prosecuted when the accused party is defeated in a war to such a degree that they dont have the ability to resist like Nazi Germany or in Yugoslavia? where the country no longer existed. As an example you can use the warrant against Putin. It is just a bit of political posturing to show discontent with the actions of someone.

It can certainly lead to military action or sanctions against the perpetrator. Look at Russia vs Ukraine, you can see how the international community sanctioned Russia. 

How many countries would be getting this free pass Israel is getting?

Was this supposed to be some type of propaganda?

[Yoshiyoshi]

18 minutes ago, Super19 said:

It can certainly lead to military action or sanctions against the perpetrator. Look at Russia vs Ukraine, you can see how the international community sanctioned Russia. 

How many countries would be getting this free pass Israel is getting?

Was this supposed to be some type of propaganda?

Sanctions were unrelated to the war crime warrant. But I will say right now that im not happy with my previous post, I was not able to properly explain what i was trying to say and Im still not sure how to make the points i was trying to make.

 

As to the twitter thing, when it comes to propaganda, dont just assume there are 2 sides. Russia is throwing propaganda out for both sides and seeing what sticks. This may just be one of their failures. Russia aims to stir up conflicts and has no interest in facts or truth so will say and try anything if it generates conflict in western nations. All social media posts should be assumed to be false if not from a trusted source and even then be ready to hear that they got caught by a piece of propaganda. One of the Ukrainian sources that is generally reliable mistakenly promoted propaganda a few weeks back and got embarrassed by it.

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Tocchetdontplaydat said:

Everyone is a idealist/pacifist until they get punched in the face. 

 

Who is the true hero, person to be admired ?

 

A soldier that kills 75 enemy soldiers ?

 

Or a pacifist like Desmond Doss that refused to carry a weapon into battle, and who single handedly saved 75 soldiers in one battle, some of whom used to mock him for his pacifism.

 

I know who I believe had more courage and who I admire the most.

[Taxi]

12 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Who is the true hero, person to be admired ?

 

A soldier that kills 75 enemy soldiers ?

 

Or a pacifist like Desmond Doss that refused to carry a weapon into battle, and who single handedly saved 75 soldiers in one battle, some of whom used to mock him for his pacifism.

 

I know who I believe had more courage and who I admire the most.

Lol. Hamas is very unlikely to respond positively to pacifism. When you believe your enemy deserves death, before they even open their mouths, you're unlikely to be inspired by pacifism. Hamas has stated that total eradication is their goal and any peace deal is temporary.