Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

Just now, Taxi said:

Lol. Hamas is very unlikely to respond positively to pacifism. When you believe your enemy deserves death, before they even open their mouths, you're unlikely to be inspired by pacifism. Hamas has stated that total eradication is their goal and any peace deal is temporary.

 

I didn't expect you to understand the context of my post.

[StrayDog]

4 hours ago, Odd. said:

Go free your hostages if u cared about them.

 

So you're in favor of American and European military going in after the hostages? Since there are hostages from a number of different countries involved, it seems to be what you're saying here. There are also Canadian hostages, should the Canadian military be sending in a strike team? Or are you going to claim all of those other nations also don't care about their hostages because they don't have boots on the ground? 

[Ilunga]

20 minutes ago, Tocchetdontplaydat said:

Hamas et al don't play by any rules (Terrorist Government) and have zero Desmond Doss' on their roster.

 

But ya, this Doss fellow is a hero and righteous dude I guess? I'm not really looking for heroes though?

 

You weren't taking about Hamas.

You stated

" EVERYONE is idealist/ pacifist until they get punched in the face.

 

After the rest of his battalion had retreated, he stayed up on hacksaw ridge.

He saved men who used to mock and ridicule him for being a pacifist. 

He was ostracized, bullied, abused and cursed by some of the men he went on to save.

 

So yeah, not only do some people stay pacifists, they go on to help the people that abused them.

 

[moosehead]

Genocide.....

From the oppressed .... to the Oppressor.....

Very sad...  Israel has lost the plot... and world opinion is moving swiftly against Israel.....

 

 

It’s 12:45am (22:45 GMT) in the occupied Palestinian territories and Israel, so let’s bring you up to speed with the latest developments:

• Israeli tanks are just 20 metres (65 feet) away from al-Quds Hospital and firing at the facility with about 14,000 displaced people sheltering inside.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/11/israel-hamas-war-live-pleas-for-help-as-israel-bombards-gaza-hospitals

[moosehead]

6 minutes ago, Tocchetdontplaydat said:

 

Wome and babies to the front, cowards and wannabe martyrs hiding behind them.

 

A coward hides behind women and children....  An even bigger   coward kills women and children.....

 

The world opinion has turned against Israel.     Free Palestine.   

 

UNICEF is calling for the protection of hospitals and children in Gaza amid “deeply worrying reports” of the situation in the biggest hospital in the strip.

The UN agency, responsible for providing humanitarian aid to children worldwide called for an immediate ceasefire in the Gaza Strip.

“Al Shifa hospital in Gaza is without power and we are seeing deeply worrying reports of premature babies dying in incubators,” UNICEF said in its statement released early Sunday local time.

  

 

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-11-23/index.html

Edited November 12, 2023 by moosehead

[Yoshiyoshi]

11 minutes ago, Tocchetdontplaydat said:

 If he was truly a pacifist he would have dodged the draft. Him medically assisting allied soldiers is complicit to killing babies.  

 

Might need to look for a new hero. Sorry/not sorry.

Thats a bit extreme imo. There are varying levels of pacifism and while i personally do not agree with it, as long as their pacifism doesnt result in someone being injured or dying I think they should get at least a basic level of respect

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Tocchetdontplaydat said:

 If he was truly a pacifist he would have dodged the draft. Him medically assisting allied soldiers is complicit to killing babies.  

 

Might need to look for a new hero. Sorry/not sorry.

 

Are you really serious ?

 

You are comparing some one who wanted to save lives to people who are complicit in killing babies ? 

His unit was fighting fanatics that in some ways were similar to Hamas.

I am unaware of any instances where US troops killed babies in WW2.

 

 

So are you willing to apply that same logic to the Israeli armed forces who are killing women and children in their efforts to root out Hamas from the Gaza strip ? 

Should they have avoided military service ?

 

 

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Thats a bit extreme imo. There are varying levels of pacifism and while i personally do not agree with it, as long as their pacifism doesnt result in someone being injured or dying I think they should get at least a basic level of respect

 

Not only did his pacifism not result in people dying, he saved 75 lives in one battle alone.

Men, many of whom used to abuse, bully, ostracize and curse him.

[Ilunga]

Just now, Tocchetdontplaydat said:

 

He was part of the war effort, enabling his fellow soldiers to continue on doing what they must do. 100% complicit. Could have chosen to be a conscientious objector and not go to war at all, that would be pacifist.

 

Israeli forces are not killing women and children per se. Women and children are dying because of cowardly, gutless terrorist using them as human shields. Women and children have been murdered by these same gutless terrorists and that is also why their own women and children are now dying. 

 

 

 

 

Yes he was helping " complicit " in fighting against an evil group, that actually did commit a form of genocide,  the rape of Nanking, amongst other war crimes and crimes against humanity the Japanese committed before and during WW2.

He was a pacifist that wanted to save lives not take them.

 

You stated he was complicit in killing babies, prove it.

I can find no evidence of any US soldiers killing babies in WW2, let alone his unit. 

 

So even though US soldiers did not kill babies like you have claimed,and Desmond was complicit in killing these fictional babies of yours, Isreali soldiers are not complicit in killing women and children, who are being killed, when applying the logic you have used in your previous posts.

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

11 minutes ago, Tocchetdontplaydat said:

 

His "pacifism" probably did result in people dying, if one of the treated soldiers was returned to action and participated in any kill events or any even events that lead up to a kill, even in some sort of administrative capacity. He was part of the war effort, and probably in many more ways than simply being a medic.

 

You really should do some research before posting, he was a medic, full stop.

That copped a lot of abuse from his fellow soldiers for his pacifism.

Soldiers, many of whom he went on to save their lives. 

 

The Japanese killed far more people than Hamas.

As I have stated they committed a form of genocide and many other war crimes and crimes against humanity

Are you stating that we, Australians as well, should not have fought against the Japanese ?

 

WW 2 is one of the few wars that had/ has any moral justification.

 

 

 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

4 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Sometimes I wonder what people think war is.

war is worse than the idea of hell. The part i don't get is why people think the wealthier side has more obligations than the side that literally started the war with a sneak attack on 1400 unarmed men women and children, butchering 1200ish of them and kidnapping over 200 of them. That day was insane for so many reason, and the fallout from that day would never have happened without that day. I think restraint has been shown by 'the jetsons' in that they haven't bombed 'the flintstones' back to the paleolithic era, but obviously there is substantial disagreement on that issue. 

 

I really just wonder once the upper third of Gaza has been neautralized of its hamas threat: what is the next step? I would guess phase 2 would involve the middle third and a future phase three the southern third of the strip? I don't know but stopping at 1/3 of the job done seems like it is just doomed to repeat inside the next 7 years. Guessing therefore that Israel does all three phases, and my sincere hope is real and outstanding humanitarian aid is set up in the Northern Third, once that sector is clear of Hamas. Then slowly and carefully vet the civilians back into the north to clear out the south. This is going to take a long time, even if i am wrong and it is not a three phase war, or some armistice is agreed to before it is finished: this will take a very long time. 

[Optimist Prime]

7 hours ago, Odd. said:

Go in there and find Hamas, as far as reports go IDF hasn’t even gone more than 40km into Gaza. Go free your hostages if u cared about them.

Just to overstate the obvious: Gaza is about 41.55km's long at its longest axis and only 5 and a half km's wide at the middle of that 41.55km's of length. 

 

So, with that absolutely geographically correct information, I have to ask, "What?"

 

I was tied up all day, but I am gonna skip the rest of the 9 hours of posts, this one has made me realize this thread is a waste of time and effort. rofl. None the less, see you tomorrow, lol. 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

war is worse than the idea of hell. The part i don't get is why people think the wealthier side has more obligations than the side that literally started the war with a sneak attack on 1400 unarmed men women and children, butchering 1200ish of them and kidnapping over 200 of them. That day was insane for so many reason, and the fallout from that day would never have happened without that day. I think restraint has been shown by 'the jetsons' in that they haven't bombed 'the flintstones' back to the paleolithic era, but obviously there is substantial disagreement on that issue. 

 

I really just wonder once the upper third of Gaza has been neautralized of its hamas threat: what is the next step? I would guess phase 2 would involve the middle third and a future phase three the southern third of the strip? I don't know but stopping at 1/3 of the job done seems like it is just doomed to repeat inside the next 7 years. Guessing therefore that Israel does all three phases, and my sincere hope is real and outstanding humanitarian aid is set up in the Northern Third, once that sector is clear of Hamas. Then slowly and carefully vet the civilians back into the north to clear out the south. This is going to take a long time, even if i am wrong and it is not a three phase war, or some armistice is agreed to before it is finished: this will take a very long time. 

 

Who and what is going to replace Hamas ?

Even a little bit of research illustrates that no one outside of the occupied territories wants the job.

Even the PA who who partially administers the west bank don't want the job unless Isreal complies to a 2 state solution, which to say the least they have been reluctant to do since Netanyahu took over. 

Again some research indicates that something just as bad if not worse may be born out of this conflict.

 

Who is going to rebuild Gaza ?

I am fully behind Hamas being neutralized by whatever means it takes however whose duty is it to rebuild ?

We know the Palestinians don't have the resources to do this.  

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Who and what is going to replace Hamas ?

Even a little bit of research illustrates that no one outside of the occupied territories wants the job.

Even the PA who who partially administers the west bank don't want the job unless Isreal complies to a 2 state solution, which to say the least they have been reluctant to do since Netanyahu took over. 

Again some research indicates that something just as bad if not worse may be born out of this conflict.

 

Who is going to rebuild Gaza ?

I am fully behind Hamas being neutralized by whatever means it takes however whose duty is it to rebuild ?

We know the Palestinians don't have the resources to do this.  

 

 

I hope that the International Community, the g20, the EU, every nation that can will contribute to easing the lives of the people of Gaza. Right now though we don't even know if they will remain in Gaza, the situation as they say is 'fluid'. Contrary to some theories, Israel didn't plan on this situation, they had to make the plan on oct 8th. I am 100% sure the next steps, after a few weeks time, are still unplanned and in the gaming out stages. It could be that slowly and surely the good people of Gaza may be processed, bussed to the west bank, and perhaps resettled there. I could see 100k of them a week being processed this way once the northern Strip is in Israeli control, offering a peaceful transition to a new settlement, which will take a long time to build back better than what they have had to leave, but ultimately could be a better life for them and their kids. I dont have the answers, no one knew the question until Oct 7th, so that will take time. 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Tocchetdontplaydat said:

 

Bombs were dropped, babies died. Your "Hero" was on the winning side (thank God).

 

 

He would have had to go through basic training etc to become a military medic, no?

 

Not trying to justify anything, just saying that in this real life scenario, pacifism is beyond idealistic. Like, not gonna happen.

 

Clutching at straws.....sigh 

 

Man up and just admit you are wrong. 

 

Where did I say Isreal should accept what happened to them ?

I have consistently stated that Isreal has a right to defend itself.

 

You made a statement that had nothing to do with the war, I gave you an example of a pacifist that was actually more than punched in the face, he was abused, ostracized, bullied and cursed.

Like my dad taught me, bones and bruises heal, if people fuck with your mind that stays with you for life.

Not only did he remain a pacifist he actually save the lives of some of those who did those things to him.

[Optimist Prime]

3 minutes ago, Tocchetdontplaydat said:

 

Israel is ready and willing.

 

All those other people should be absorbed by other muslim countries of they can't sort out their own shit. And they obviously can't.

I have been toying with numbers: and that is a big ask. 

If we say 10k parcels of people are farmed out to other regions that is still more parcels of 10k people than there are nations in the world. It is a catastrophe, no one is debating that. if some close by nations take more, 100k maybe, then half could be absorbed by ten countries and maybe the other half in 10k groups go to another 100 countries? 

 

I am full and tired now. I went to one of the best restaurants in Esquimalt today and got a feast for my family on the farm: Syrianna by Safaa, a Syrian immigrant to our island. They make the very best and most authentic Shawarma, Fatoush Salad and Baklava I have ever had. My fam had never had it, aside from my wife and everyone really enjoyed it. Arabic culture is a very tasty food experience, and generally very good vibe, I can't stress that enough. Safaa had her restaurant decked out in CEASEFIRE NOW posters, and I don't blame her at all. I told her that her food was beautiful in arabic and that I was treating my family to try it for the first time and she threw in some extra deserts, mmmmmmmmm. 

 

with a full tummy and a warm house, I am off to bed. 

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, Tocchetdontplaydat said:

 

Israel is ready and willing.

 

All those other people should be absorbed by other muslim countries of they can't sort out their own shit. And they obviously can't.

 Again you are wrong  

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/israel-has-no-desire-to-govern-gaza-but-will-create-buffer-zone-netanyahu-adviser-says

 

 

 

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/06/1210713218/israel-says-hamas-wont-rule-gaza-so-who-will

 

 

" We learned the hard way in Lebanon " , said Amidror " we cannot be the king makers. You cannot come from outside and determine who who will be the Palestinian government. They have to make decisions. They have to make the choice. "

[Ilunga]

12 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I hope that the International Community, the g20, the EU, every nation that can will contribute to easing the lives of the people of Gaza. Right now though we don't even know if they will remain in Gaza, the situation as they say is 'fluid'. Contrary to some theories, Israel didn't plan on this situation, they had to make the plan on oct 8th. I am 100% sure the next steps, after a few weeks time, are still unplanned and in the gaming out stages. It could be that slowly and surely the good people of Gaza may be processed, bussed to the west bank, and perhaps resettled there. I could see 100k of them a week being processed this way once the northern Strip is in Israeli control, offering a peaceful transition to a new settlement, which will take a long time to build back better than what they have had to leave, but ultimately could be a better life for them and their kids. I dont have the answers, no one knew the question until Oct 7th, so that will take time. 

 

We all knew the question about Palestinian self determination before this particular conflict reignited.

Right now I am hearing in the background, news on, this conflict could grow into something much bigger.

Projections in regards to Isreals rooting out Hamas is minimum months, could turn into years. 

Don't get me wrong, Isreal has to do what it has to.

I am certainly against a permanent Isreali presence in Gaza for ever.

 

Palestinians have the right to self determination exactly like Isrealis do.

And they shouldn't have to give up anymore land.

 

[Ilunga]

8 minutes ago, Tocchetdontplaydat said:

 

I feel like we are kinda arguing the same side from different angles so gonna leave it at that for now. Cheers

 

As I have already stated, I am on the side of the families of the victims of the 7th of October attack.

I am also on the side of the families of the innocent Palestinians victims, especially the children's.

As a parent that's my worst nightmare, my beautiful son dying before I do.

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Ilunga

[CBH1926]

5 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I dont know anything about the refugee camp claim so ill ignore that for now. An ambulance is a perfectly valid target when being used by Hamas. Its just a car when not being used by paramedics. As to the bombing of buildings, what is your alternative? Sending in troops? You think that the IDF should send their soldiers into locations hardened against ground troops without softening the target first? What about locations launching rockets? Should the IDF waste time sending troops to the location that is firing rockets at civilian targets outside of Gaza? People complain about how Israel is fighting but they never say how they should be fighting instead. It is easy to be self-righteous and condemn actions in war, doesnt take much thought, just look at a headline and make a comment.

 

Sometimes I wonder what people think war is.

Armchair quarterbacks have no idea what war really is.

The only way to actually know about it’s to live through it.
Hearing the explosions, watching people die, seeing blood, body parts and bodies.

[Ilunga]

57 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Armchair quarterbacks have no idea what war really is.

The only way to actually know about it’s to live through it.
Hearing the explosions, watching people die, seeing blood, body parts and bodies.

 

I disagree.

After speaking to veterans including my father, I know that exactly what war really is, the look in their eyes actually speaks louder than words.

 

War is suffering.

War is pain.

War is the violent death of people that are loved by others. 

 

I don't have to live something to know what it is.

Of course living through something gives one more of an insight into the suffering and pain of war, however I know what suffering and pain is. 

 

I often rationalise that billions of people would trade places with me right now, Inspite of the fact that I am going through the worst time of my life.

That doesn't make my pain less or theirs more, it just puts my pain into perspective.

The only pain I can envisage that would be worse than what I am going through now is that if my son actually died.

 

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

y pain less or theirs more, it just puts my pain into perspective.

The only pain I can envisage that would be worse than what I am going through now is that if my son actually died.

 

 

War is hell.

 

My only hope is that all humans can find peace and justice regardless of their race , religion, gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation. 

 

We are blessed in Canada to find equality for all citizens.  Hopefully Israel opens their hearts and can find equality/ love /  peace  for all their minorities. 

[moosehead]

11 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

Armchair quarterbacks have no idea what war really is.

The only way to actually know about it’s to live through it.
Hearing the explosions, watching people die, seeing blood, body parts and bodies.

 

I honestly hope no one has to live through this.

 

 

 

War / death / destruction - it is hell...

Edited November 12, 2023 by moosehead

[4petesake]

49 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

And then on Nov 11th try real hard to get to Nov 12th. 23 more minutes for me and I made it another year. I had good distractions today though. 

Now I am in bed trying not to sleep until the meds kick in. You dont wanna sleep after, the line I like in this song is "...where no murdered ghost can haunt me". But the whole tune speaks volumes.

 

Meh, I feel like babbling and oversharing, but it is semi on topic. My brother hanged himself 8 years ago and less frequently now but intensely for the first few years, I felt like I was the coward for not being able to do what he had the courage to.  Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war, but in times of peace, maybe, just maybe it is more humane to put down the dog.

 

A good buddy barricaded his apartment door and burned himself alive about 10 years ago. He had the job of emptying a swimming pool at the complex our guys HQs was to set up in. It was full but it wasn't water. At some point they exhausted the body bags brought in for the task and had to resort to hefty cinch sacks. It was an Olympic sized pool.

 

I think I already mentioned an MP friend of mine, her first shift back to work after her deployment she shot her mouth with her service pistol.

 

I guess I am impressed with how many vets are alive on November 11th, but one fella today at the Ottawa service said 5 of his buddies that were beside last year at the event weren't with us anymore this year. Then he cried a bit, and then I cried a bit, and it was just on TV...I can't go to Cenotaph yet since I retired, II bawl when the pregame anthem goes off...no one wants to see a giant have a meltdown on parade.

 

l have the luxury of never having had to witness such horrors and the atrocities of war. I have the luxury of peaceful dreams and easy sleep. I never forget on this or any other day that I owe that privilege to people like yourself and your band of brothers who served. I hope you get some comfort from knowing that others are forever indebted to you and your service.

[Optimist Prime]

12 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

 

l have the luxury of never having had to witness such horrors and the atrocities of war. I have the luxury of peaceful dreams and easy sleep. I never forget on this or any other day that I owe that privilege to people like yourself and your band of brothers who served. I hope you get some comfort from knowing that others are forever indebted to you and your service.

I appr3ciate you, but I just figured I would share. Remembrance day usually makes me into a weepy bitch, today I planned ahead and had a trip to the city and then dinner with family to distract, but then got home...sorry to rant. My gist was wars suck and no one should have to experience one.the guys that started this one are the enemies of humanity.