Canuck Surfer Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 14 hours ago, Gnarcore said: They can eliminate Hamas all they want. They aren't finding peace. Too many are dying and the next wave of radicals is being created. Radicals are formed more by economic conditions. If the only way you can make money is digging tunnels? Or people smuggling. People will be in the gang that digs tunnels, pulls weapons thru. ergo a radical is born. The kids that become Doctor's and engineers are one level. It's really about if there is no middle class where you can be an electrician, or tradesperson, construction worker? Then the choice is going to be guys that dig tunnels. If Hamas / Gaza is de-weaponized as was Germany & Japan after WWII? And you invest in the community. The Middle Class will persevere. Germans & Japanese had plenty of reason to be radicalized; it just wasn't an option. Its going to have to be a de-militarized zone. 14 hours ago, Gurn said: Which is exactly how Hamas feels about the Israelis. does the fact that you feel exactly like the inverse of Hamas, bother you at all? Its one thing to dislike the IDF. Even components, my choice of words, of the Israeli govt.. It should be important to weed out the radical, in this case Right, of Israel's govt.. The more militant, and opportunistic in terms of developments and land theft in occupied territories. The majority of Israeli's do want security, but have no interest in governing Gaza. Do not want to see civilians & children, hospitals bombed. Quite another to hate all Jews. Hamas does have a stated goal to exterminate all Jews. Even with radicals, this is not true of the Israel as a whole. Nor many Palestinians. Hamas = true Representation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Radicals are formed more by economic conditions. If the only way you can make money is digging tunnels? Or people smuggling. People will be in the gang that digs tunnels, pulls weapons thru. ergo a radical is born. The kids that become Doctor's and engineers are one level. It's really about if there is no middle class where you can be an electrician, or tradesperson, construction worker? Then the choice is going to be guys that dig tunnels. If Hamas / Gaza is de-weaponized as was Germany & Japan after WWII? And you invest in the community. The Middle Class will persevere. Germans & Japanese had plenty of reason to be radicalized; it just wasn't an option. Its going to have to be a de-militarized zone. Its one thing to dislike the IDF. Even components, my choice of words, of the Israeli govt.. It should be important to weed out the radical, in this case Right, of Israel's govt.. The more militant, and opportunistic in terms of developments and land theft in occupied territories. The majority of Israeli's do want security, but have no interest in governing Gaza. Do not want to see civilians & children, hospitals bombed. Quite another to hate all Jews. Hamas does have a stated goal to exterminate all Jews. Even with radicals, this is not true of the Israel as a whole. Nor many Palestinians. Hamas = true Representation. all the radicals are fucked- about time people started listening to reason. Or nothing will ever change; other than the death toll. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 14 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Keep on telling yourself about putting people in a cage. It always starts the same way - Palestinian terror, Israel responds, all the idealist around the world forget about the initial terror attack and blame everything on Israel. And on and on it goes. What would you do in this situation if you were Israel? It’s not keeping people in a cage, it’s simple attempt to survive and protect yourself. Any country in the world, if the question comes up - protect your own citizens will always come first. To date every representative of Palestinian community representing them in negotiations, at some stage of their life was crystal clear that their ultimate goal is to destroy all of Israel and any negotiations is just a temporary step on the way for their ultimate goal. For me, my society, Australia, has a duty to treat all nations/ other societies with decency and respect. To help those less fortunate than us, just like I do on a personal level. One of the most shameful acts my society has done in my lifetime is the past treatment of asylum seekers, and the past and current treatment of our first nations people. Tell them that it is our duty to protect them. It is our duty as a species to look after the most vulnerable members of our species. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, Gurn said: all the radicals are fucked- about time people started listening to reason. Or nothing will ever change; other than the death toll. I am quite happy with this wording. ALL in capital letters radicals. Even when someone, say @moosehead, says they want peace for everyone? But mentions 'I just hope the Israeli's see it in their heart...' Just like blame, it still sounds one sided. The criminals / radicals need systems by both sides to be kept in check. Justice... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) World opinion has now rightfully turned against Israel.... The Hamas terrorists have not gotten exactly what they wanted. World attention and more support from Palestinian youth One air strike destroyed the hospital’s cardiac ward, Gaza officials said, while electricity cuts shut off incubators in the neonatal unit hosting around 40 babies and ventilators for others receiving urgent care. Doctors Without Borders surgeon Mohammed Obeid said in an audio message posted on social media that two babies died in the al-Shifa neonatal unit after power to their incubators depleted and a man also died when his ventilator cut off. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/12/israeli-strikes-in-gaza-kill-at-least-13-destroy-al-shifas-cancer-ward Edited November 13, 2023 by moosehead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Super19 said: This is about the Palestenians living in Gaza. Palestinians in Gaza have been offered two state solutions many times since 1948. Administrations, usually militant / radical, always knocked it back. As point of fact, they actually attacked Israel directly after each offer. Hopefully enough Palestinians actually want peace, will drive self determination in a different path than did Hamas on their behalf? The jailhouse rocks, blockades, worlds largest prison are also factored by missiles by militant activity toward Israel. Such a country, when formed in Gaza, will likely see a requirement to be demilitarized for some time. Yet borders, ports opened and economic activity, investment welcomed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: I am quite happy with this wording. ALL in capital letters radicals. Even when someone, say @moosehead, says they want peace for everyone? But mentions 'I just hope the Israeli's see it in their heart...' Just like blame, it still sounds one sided. The criminals / radicals need systems by both sides to be kept in check. Justice... Some Israel scholars and former Israeli officials have also started using this designation. In 2022, Michael Ben-Yair, a former attorney general of Israel, said that “it is with great sadness ... I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime.” Earlier this year, Tamir Pardo, a former head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, emphasized, too, that “there is an apartheid state here” featuring “two people [who] are judged under two legal systems.” In 2021, Human Rights Watch (HRW) put out a report noting that the Israeli government engaged in “systematic oppression of Palestinians and inhumane acts,” which ultimately “amount to the crime of apartheid. In 2022, Amnesty International reached a similar conclusion, saying that the Israeli state “imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians” that “amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law. That same year, Michael Lynk, then the UN special rapporteur focused on human rights in occupied Palestinian territories, stated that the Israeli government used a “deeply discriminatory dual legal and political system,” which privileges Israeli Jewish settlers while disadvantaging Palestinian residents in these areas. https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Super19 said: Have there been any updates on how Hamas terrorists were able to infiltrate Israeli intelligence and defense systems for hours? I mean they breached this super strong defense via paragliders, when supposedly Israel has eyes and ears everywhere, especially along the border. It's an honest question. Was Israel's skirt too short? I don't know, other than to suggest in vague terms any chatter that Intel would collect is still buried under a million useless facts haystack. sorting it in real time takes time. I know from doing the job. Computers are a massive asset but someone still has to chain the data and literally connect the dots, so in this case I would say literally being the Flintstones worked to Hamas advantage. A closed loop of hard wire comms underground is hard to intercept, assuming one knew to try. In any case, the length of the victims skirt is irrelevant in rape trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 This is cold blood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 5 hours ago, moosehead said: Some Israel scholars and former Israeli officials have also started using this designation. In 2022, Michael Ben-Yair, a former attorney general of Israel, said that “it is with great sadness ... I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime.” Earlier this year, Tamir Pardo, a former head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, emphasized, too, that “there is an apartheid state here” featuring “two people [who] are judged under two legal systems.” In 2021, Human Rights Watch (HRW) put out a report noting that the Israeli government engaged in “systematic oppression of Palestinians and inhumane acts,” which ultimately “amount to the crime of apartheid. In 2022, Amnesty International reached a similar conclusion, saying that the Israeli state “imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians” that “amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law. That same year, Michael Lynk, then the UN special rapporteur focused on human rights in occupied Palestinian territories, stated that the Israeli government used a “deeply discriminatory dual legal and political system,” which privileges Israeli Jewish settlers while disadvantaging Palestinian residents in these areas. https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate Blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 This is a great explanation of “war crimes” and “proportional response” from a lawyer in layman’s terms 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 12 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: Well, if one of us gets to state what 'this is about' i will go with the thread title: Hammas Attacking Israel. That is what this is about. huh, I thought it was the everything else thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 12 hours ago, Super19 said: You must be a 'Sunni' Who gives a Shiite? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Israel is famous for its Pink Washing Planning great parties.... but denying humans their basic human rights.... In reality, things in Israel are more complicated, and critics of the country have long accused it of “pinkwashing,” a term created by Palestinian activists. For example, Israel doesn’t allow same sex marriage or adoption. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/israel-palestine-rabbi-rosenberg-lgbt/ Pinkwashing But full equal rights and full social and cultural acceptance are still a distant dream. Israel does not recognize same-sex marriages performed in the country, given that marriage and divorce are legally administered solely by religious courts (rabbinical courts for Jews, sharia courts for Muslims, and other denominational courts for respective minority communities). In the Israeli periphery, social norms are still far from accepting of LGBT people. Moreover, Palestinian LGBT citizens of Israel suffer discrimination as non-Jews in the country, and Palestinians in the occupied territories, including the LGBT community, are denied equal civil rights. Palestinian LGBT people facing persecution in the occupied territories are not eligible for asylum in Israel, and Israeli security services and military intelligence have reportedly blackmailed Palestinian gay men for the purpose of gathering information. Therefore, when right-wing politicians from the ruling Likud party—such as Minister of Culture Miri Regev or Amir Ohana, the first openly gay Likud Member of Knesset—attend the Tel Aviv pride parade to assert Israel’s moral and liberal advantage over its neighbors, or when Israel’s Ministry of Tourism and Ministry of Foreign Affairs publicize the event in Europe and the United States, it generates a strong sense of hypocrisy. These politicians, while celebrating pride in Tel Aviv, also work to block legislative initiatives by the opposition for equal rights for LGBT citizens, not to mention equal rights for the millions of Palestinians in the occupied territories. This year, Palestinian and left-wing activists in Tel Aviv hung a huge sign from a balcony along the parade’s path that stated, “We want rights, not parties!” https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/64285 Edited November 13, 2023 by moosehead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoshiyoshi Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 1 hour ago, RomanPer said: This is a great explanation of “war crimes” and “proportional response” from a lawyer in layman’s terms This is a great post, does a far better job than I have in the past 2 weeks trying to explain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 32 minutes ago, moosehead said: Oh really.... great PR but dig a bit deeper.... In reality, things in Israel are more complicated, and critics of the country have long accused it of “pinkwashing,” a term created by Palestinian activists. For example, Israel doesn’t allow same sex marriage or adoption. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/israel-palestine-rabbi-rosenberg-lgbt/ Oh, for crying out loud, sorry we are breathing... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Tocchetdontplaydat said: Anti semitism shining through. That is a personal insult. All posters on this site should refrain from insulting each other. If you disagree with my claim that Israel pink washes.... then post some info that refutes it. Resorting to insults is childesh and shows an inability to discuss issues responsibly. Edited November 13, 2023 by moosehead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 48 minutes ago, moosehead said: Israel is famous for its Pink Washing Planning great parties.... but denying humans their basic human rights.... In reality, things in Israel are more complicated, and critics of the country have long accused it of “pinkwashing,” a term created by Palestinian activists. For example, Israel doesn’t allow same sex marriage or adoption. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/israel-palestine-rabbi-rosenberg-lgbt/ Pinkwashing But full equal rights and full social and cultural acceptance are still a distant dream. Israel does not recognize same-sex marriages performed in the country, given that marriage and divorce are legally administered solely by religious courts (rabbinical courts for Jews, sharia courts for Muslims, and other denominational courts for respective minority communities). In the Israeli periphery, social norms are still far from accepting of LGBT people. Moreover, Palestinian LGBT citizens of Israel suffer discrimination as non-Jews in the country, and Palestinians in the occupied territories, including the LGBT community, are denied equal civil rights. Palestinian LGBT people facing persecution in the occupied territories are not eligible for asylum in Israel, and Israeli security services and military intelligence have reportedly blackmailed Palestinian gay men for the purpose of gathering information. Therefore, when right-wing politicians from the ruling Likud party—such as Minister of Culture Miri Regev or Amir Ohana, the first openly gay Likud Member of Knesset—attend the Tel Aviv pride parade to assert Israel’s moral and liberal advantage over its neighbors, or when Israel’s Ministry of Tourism and Ministry of Foreign Affairs publicize the event in Europe and the United States, it generates a strong sense of hypocrisy. These politicians, while celebrating pride in Tel Aviv, also work to block legislative initiatives by the opposition for equal rights for LGBT citizens, not to mention equal rights for the millions of Palestinians in the occupied territories. This year, Palestinian and left-wing activists in Tel Aviv hung a huge sign from a balcony along the parade’s path that stated, “We want rights, not parties!” https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/64285 Which ME countries do you think are doing a better and fairer job of supporting LGBT rights? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Satchmo said: Which ME countries do you think are doing a better and fairer job of supporting LGBT rights? None but that is a low bar. PInkwashing is bragging about being LGBT friendly.... but still Israel still denies LGBT community their basic human rights.... Great photo op though... Pinkwashing... Edited November 13, 2023 by moosehead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 20 minutes ago, RomanPer said: Oh, for crying out loud, sorry we are breathing... Everyone here respects Israel's right to exist. People just want to see an Israel that does not discriminate against their minorities and grants freedom and equality to all their citizens / inhabitants... ( as many there are actually denied full citizenship due to oppresive government policies. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, moosehead said: None but that is a low bar. PInkwashing is bragging about being LGBT friendly.... but still Israel still denies LGBT community their basic human rights.... Pinkwashing... How does Hamas view the LBGQ people? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 Just now, Alflives said: How does Hamas view the LBGQ people? That makes no difference. Israel needs to start respecting basic human rights of all its inhabitants. Sorry but you are on a .... what·a·bout·ism /ˌ(h)wədəˈboudizəm/ noun BRITISH the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue. "the parliamentary hearing appeared Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satchmo Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 Just now, moosehead said: None but that is a low bar. Then why bring it up at all? I'm not going to call you antisemitic but I will call you unwavering and steadfast in your hunt to find and post anything even remotely anti Israeli. Anyone so inclined could have easily found dozens of reports of anti LGBT sentiment in Palestine and elsewhere. The internet contains anything you care to look for. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 Just now, moosehead said: That makes no difference. Israel needs to start respecting basic human rights of all its inhabitants. Sorry but you are on a .... what·a·bout·ism /ˌ(h)wədəˈboudizəm/ noun BRITISH the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue. "the parliamentary hearing appeared Isn’t the thread title about Hamas attacking Israel? Anyway, Alf doesn’t comment about other posters. He focuses on the thread stuff. To Alf Hamas it’s clear Hamas is an entity that must be eliminated. When that is done then other countries can help build up Gaza. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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