Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I agree.  I truly don't think it will be solved without a third party getting in between.  I think of the scene in Lawrence of Arabia where he executes the man to end a blood feud.  UN peacekeepers in between are the only viable solution I can think of.

 

Lawrence is a great example.

His British superiors wanted him to betray the men he fought with when they had finished using them.

 

It has all contributed to what we now call the troubles in the middle east.

[Junkyard Dog]

56 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

Respectfully - do you understand the context of the creation of Israel?

 

Do you know that the 2 million Palestinians who are without a country used to live in that land, and were "depopulated" to make way for the birthright of European and North Americans to take over their homes?

 

Like - can you see how that, combined with 4 decades of air strikes on houses, and tens of thousands of palestinian civilian deaths, MIGHT make them want their land back?

 

Hamas did not exist until 2006.

 

The Palestinians forced their previous freedom fighters (the PLO) to renounce violence and enter peace talks with Israel. The bombings on their homes continued, as did the apartheid conditions in the West Bank (it is literal apartheid - im talking separate roads for palestinians and israeli settlers). Then Hamas comes along and promises to continue the fight. Violence is wrong - but can you understand that MAYBE the reason the violence keeps coming back is the Palestinians are a subjugated population thats been beaten, murdered, beaten, murdered, again and again without pause? And maybe they're tired of it?

 

So where this needs to start is: Israel needs to stop subjugating Palestinians. End apartheid conditions, let enough food and medical supplies into Gaza, stop bombing peoples homes, and stop building illegal settlements in the West Bank.

 

If Israel stops doing that, the Palestinians have no reason to support Hamas anymore. Just like they forced the PLO to renounce violence.

 

 

I am not excusing Israel in all the history of this war. 

 

I also don't try to justify terrorists attacks.

 

I am just trying to find real solutions. I don't think peace is an option with Hamas. They don't have the Palestinians best interests IMO. Otherwise they wouldn't have committed such an attack knowing full well the retaliation that would follow.

 

I am not sure what you mean by Hamas not existing till 2006. Correct if wrong but wasn't Hamas was founded in 1987?  Didn't they split from the Muslim brotherhood that lasted almost 100 years? Hamas started gaining power after they took control of Gaza after a conflict with Fatah after they were elected. That was in 2006-07, if you went coming into power. Their first action against Israel was against them in the first Intifada decades ago.

 

I also think your method won't work. Seems overly optimistic. Hamas has been in power for decades. It won't be that easy to get rid of power when the history of death and hate has driven them this far down the rabbit hole of hate and extremism.

 

I don't think Hamas will stop even after that. They are a far cry. They'll just keep fighting. Last weekend proved that peace isn't on their mind. Nobody commits those sort of war crimes and try to make peace. 

 

Not sure how to end it. I just don't think peace is an option with Hamas. Kind of coincidental that Saudi were getting close to reach an agreement prior to this attack.

 

What options do we have? trying to get Fatah back in power? Not sure Palestinians would like an appointed official. Work with West Bank in an effort to drive off Hamas and agree to give Gaza to the PLO?

 

IDK.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Junkyard Dog

[Provost]

2 hours ago, King Heffy said:

The simple solution is for Palestine to hand over the terrorists instead of electing them as their government.  My point is that, as someone who was previously neutral on the conflict, look at actions like these and the barbaric slaughter of civilians over the last couple of days and take that into account.

Why haven’t you been outraged by the mass killings of Palestinian children and other civilians?

 

Do you think this all started yesterday?  The death toll of civilians over the last couple of decades is 100’s of Palestinians for every Israeli.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Provost

[Provost]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

@Ilunga

 

 

“Animals” “Barbarians”. “Subhumans”

 

That is the language used by groups like the Nazis to dehumanize and justify atrocities. I mean, you can find hundreds of videos like the one below… a difference is that these nationalist folks lead Israel’s government.

 

Heck, read the headlines from any Flag Day March including this year.  Thousands of Israelis including the actual governing political party senior ministers march through Arab areas shouting for their death and for their villages to burn…. Beating any Arab or Palestinian they find as a reminder that they are a subjugated people.  Go figure that tensions get inflamed…. I mean aside from the systematic genocide they are committing every day.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/at-jerusalem-flag-march-chants-of-death-to-arabs-and-assaults-on-palestinians/amp/

Edited October 10, 2023 by Provost

[Junkyard Dog]

How do you stop this vicious and bloody cycle of hate?

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[Taxi]

3 hours ago, Provost said:

Why haven’t you been outraged by the mass killings of Palestinian children and other civilians?

 

Do you think this all started yesterday?  The death toll of civilians over the last couple of decades is 100’s of Palestinians for every Israeli.

There is an important distinction here. Most Palestinian citizens are dying because they are being used as human shields by Hamas. Must Israeli citizens are dying because they are being targeted by Hamas.

[Boudrias]

22 minutes ago, Taxi said:

There is an important distinction here. Most Palestinian citizens are dying because they are being used as human shields by Hamas. Must Israeli citizens are dying because they are being targeted by Hamas.

Whether Hamas or Hezbollah are an accurate reflection of Palestinian thought is likely irrelevant. They are conditioned pawns used by those who benefit whether their leadership or their neighboring governments. The difference this time is that their proxy is Tehran and that is not their neighbor. Syria might like to help Hamas but are a basket case, Jordan and Eqypt have reconciled with Israel and see more benefit collaborating with Israel than trying to destroy her. It only really leave Saudi Arabia out of the equation. If the Saudis join their Sunni neighbors in recognizing Israel, which they are doing, then the options left to the Palestinians from a military perspective are gone. The West Bank seems to realize that. The vested interest in armed conflict are on the decline. Iran, itself, must wonder if they are next. The mullahs control in Iran is shaky at best. The forces of liberalization inside Iran still exist and are still at work. We could easily view the Hamas action as a last gasp by the mullahs to reassert or galvanize their support by recreating the Jewish threat. Refocusing the Iranian people away from their own governments incompetence and oppression.      

[BabyCakes]

12 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/qatar-confirms-6-bln-unfrozen-iranian-funds-transferred-doha-triggering-us-iran-2023-09-18/

doesn't mean Iran has access to the money. you are implying they do

[Provost]

3 hours ago, Taxi said:

There is an important distinction here. Most Palestinian citizens are dying because they are being used as human shields by Hamas. Must Israeli citizens are dying because they are being targeted by Hamas.

That is a talking point, not reality.

 

Israel publicly admits it will target a residential apartment building filled with kids and civilians because they think a Hamas leader might live there or weapons might be stored there.

 

That is illegal and a war crime, even if it was true.

 

It is also just nonsense, their intelligence isn’t good enough from stopping attacks like this but they know where every Hamas fighter and rifle is?

 

They do it because it is more fun to send rockets and artillery from afar, regardless of the civilian casualties.  For every Israeli civilian killed in the last few decades there have been hundreds or thousands of Palestinians killed.  That is pure objective fact that both sides agree on.  Israeli leaders boast about it and disproportional response is there public policy.

 

Their position is guerilla fighters should come out in the open somehow away from civilians in one of the most densely packed regions of the world (that has become that packed because it is a ghetto that Israel has displaced most Palestinians from their homes and put them in a reservation/ghetto/prison?  It is dudes with AKs and paragliders against modern tanks, jets, and artillery… 

 

 

[CBH1926]

2 hours ago, BabyCakes said:

doesn't mean Iran has access to the money. you are implying they do

My original post said “money was released few weeks ago” which is true. 

It was released from bank in South Korea and transferred to bank in Qatar.

I didn’t say that Iran access to money right at this moment.

 

[CBH1926]

With IDF mobilizing 360 000 reservists, ground will be soaked in blood.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

3 hours ago, Boudrias said:

Whether Hamas or Hezbollah are an accurate reflection of Palestinian thought is likely irrelevant. They are conditioned pawns used by those who benefit whether their leadership or their neighboring governments. The difference this time is that their proxy is Tehran and that is not their neighbor. Syria might like to help Hamas but are a basket case, Jordan and Eqypt have reconciled with Israel and see more benefit collaborating with Israel than trying to destroy her. It only really leave Saudi Arabia out of the equation. If the Saudis join their Sunni neighbors in recognizing Israel, which they are doing, then the options left to the Palestinians from a military perspective are gone. The West Bank seems to realize that. The vested interest in armed conflict are on the decline. Iran, itself, must wonder if they are next. The mullahs control in Iran is shaky at best. The forces of liberalization inside Iran still exist and are still at work. We could easily view the Hamas action as a last gasp by the mullahs to reassert or galvanize their support by recreating the Jewish threat. Refocusing the Iranian people away from their own governments incompetence and oppression.      

As I said before, its in the leadership of Hamas best interest that Israel lays the hammer down in Gaza.  It increases their support among the general public.  They care less about the suffering of the people there than the Israelis.

 

Thing is, you think Bibi is facing public protests about his corruption anymore?  Nope.  Hamas gave him a gift to carry on as he's been doing unfortunately.  And that is exactly what Hamas wants.  The cycle to continue where nobody wins.

Edited October 10, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Junkyard Dog]

IDF says Hamas fighters killed and decapitated babies at one kibbutz near the Gaza border

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-says-hamas-decapitated-babies-in-israel-2023-10?amp
 

 

[24K]

 

38 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

With IDF mobilizing 360 000 reservists, ground will be soaked in blood.

Yeah this is gonna be a major middle east conflict if Israel go full genocide on Palestinians. Other middle eastern and muslim countries ain't gonna sit around. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by 24K

[24K]

3 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

IDF says Hamas fighters killed and decapitated babies at one kibbutz near the Gaza border

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-says-hamas-decapitated-babies-in-israel-2023-10?amp
 

 

I take everything IDF says with a giant grain of salt right about now. 

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, 24K said:

 

Yeah this is gonna be a major middle east conflict if Israel go full holocaust on Palestinians. Other middle eastern and muslim countries ain't gonna sit around. 

Hamas already made a call to arms to those in westbank but better put mobilization/rallies throughout the Middle East. 
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12613759/amp/Hamas-calls-mobilization-Arab-Islamic-world-Friday-support-Gaza.html

[RomanPer]

9 minutes ago, 24K said:

I take everything IDF says with a giant grain of salt right about now. 

 

Of course, you'd rather believe the terrorists... Another one bites the dust.

[RomanPer]

Ben Mizrachi, son of Dikla and Itzik Mizrachi of Vancouver, was attending the music festival in Israel. He was missing since Saturday. Today the family was informed that his body was found...

[24K]

Just now, RomanPer said:

 

Of course, you'd rather believe the terrorists... Another one bites the dust.

No I take stories from one belligerent side filled with justifiable hate towards the other with suspicion of exaggeration. 

 

Killing with a bullet, sure. Cutting off head of babies? Probably not the case. 

[24K]

4 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Hamas already made a call to arms to those in westbank but better put mobilization/rallies throughout the Middle East. 
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12613759/amp/Hamas-calls-mobilization-Arab-Islamic-world-Friday-support-Gaza.html

The West Bank leader would avoid this like the plague but question is can he control his people right now?

 

They are pretty pissed that his diplomatic approach not only yielded zero results but also more occupation of the West Bank by Israel. 

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, 24K said:

The West Bank leader would avoid this like the plague but question is can he control his people right now?

 

They are pretty pissed that his diplomatic approach not only yielded zero results but also more occupation of the West Bank by Israel. 

 

I guess we will see what happens Friday.  Could be something or nothing. 

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, 24K said:

No I take stories from one belligerent side filled with justifiable hate towards the other with suspicion of exaggeration. 

 

Killing with a bullet, sure. Cutting off head of babies? Probably not the case. 

 

When I see killed babies and killed adults with adult corpses without heads, combine it with documented stories from the other parts of the world involving muslim fanatics, the chance of this being true is highly likely. Also, simply killed babies with the bullet is not enough for you?

[RomanPer]

5 PM Today at the Jack Poole Plaza, Jewish Community of Vancouver will hold a rally in support of Israel. If you have it in your heart - please join us to show your support.

[Boudrias]

54 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

As I said before, its in the leadership of Hamas best interest that Israel lays the hammer down in Gaza.  It increases their support among the general public.  They care less about the suffering of the people there than the Israelis.

 

Thing is, you think Bibi is facing public protests about his corruption anymore?  Nope.  Hamas gave him a gift to carry on as he's been doing unfortunately.  And that is exactly what Hamas wants.  The cycle to continue where nobody wins.

Demonstrations by Arab Israelis inside Israel, aside, I do not believe support for Hamas is universal within the Palestinians. There are at least 2 million Arab Israelis or 21% of that country's population. Not all of these people are Muslims, some are Christian or Druze. They vote, hold elected office and serve in the IDF. Wages trail Jewish citizens considerably but inroads are slowly being made. 13.5% of government workers are Arab. Education is available to all. 

 

My point being is that I suspect this Hamas action might be a last gasp in their struggle. Palestinian ambitions will be sacrificed as they have been in the past. Support for armed overthrow of Israel by their neighbors is ebbing in favor of economic integration. Israel is a hub for many industries, particularly tech. Israel has the 4th highest per capita investment in tech, globally. 

 

A big question might be what Israel will do if they find proof that Iran was directly involved. Will they strike Iran openly or covertly?  

Edited October 10, 2023 by Boudrias