Hamas attacking Israel

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Do you think there isn’t a difference between a terrorist attack and the mass murder of an ethnic group? 

 

Of course. The problem is people are throwing around terms like genocide and apartheid when they don't apply. All you've done is help Hamas win the information war.

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Over 2 million Arabs live as Israeli citizens with passports in Israel. Tell me again about genocide and ethnic cleansing. 
 

No wonder Roman doesn’t waste his time with any of you anymore. You’re a history teacher and you don’t even have a clue what an actual genocide is?  

 

so they are Israeli's, not Palestinians

[Satchmo]

Just now, stawns said:

 

I could probably have some agreement with that statement, but it's certainly headed in that direction.  This is the end of Gaza and you can bet Netanyahu has plans to occupy and rebuild it when they are done levelling it and it's pretty much assured there won't be any Palestinians left there alive

We'll see.  I'll just hang back and hope for better days for all involved.

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Of course. The problem is people are throwing around terms like genocide and apartheid when they don't apply. All you've done is help Hamas win the information war.

 

a lot of people smarter and more informed than you or I are calling it exactly that.  

Edited November 14, 2023 by stawns

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

 

so they are Israeli's, not Palestinians

Sounds like it.  We'd have to ask them what they thought about it.

[Bob Long]

Just now, stawns said:

 

a lot of people smarter and more informed than you or I are calling it exactly that.  

 

Oh ok. I bet I have more education than you if you want to play that game.

 

It's disappointing to see a teacher frame things like you are, imo. 

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Oh ok. I bet I have more education than you if you want to play that game.

 

It's disappointing to see a teacher frame things like you are, imo. 

 

Frame things like what, exactly?  I'm not allowed to have a personal opinion on a matter?  And I'm sorry you can watch what's happening to a population of people, 50% of whom are under 18, and not just turn the other way, but justify it.  It's disgusting

Edited November 14, 2023 by stawns

[Bob Long]

Just now, stawns said:

 

Frame things like what, exactly?  I'm not allowed to have a personal opinion on a matter?

 

You're following an emotional narrative, not a logical one. 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

 

so they are Israeli's, not Palestinians

The population of Palestinians has tripled since 1960 from less than 2 million to almost 5.5 million. 1.6 million Palestinians also live as full Israeli citizens in Israel. 
 

Tell me again about genocide and ethnic cleansing since you are a history teacher. Do countries normally triple their population when they are a part of a genocide?  Is that what happened in WW2? Yugoslavia? Iraq?

[stawns]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

You're following an emotional narrative, not a logical one. 

 

You are following the narrative of one of the most far right, extremist facist governments on the planet.  Good for you, you must be proud.

[Satchmo]

4 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

a lot of people smarter and more informed than you or I are calling it exactly that.  

I can't help but weigh in and repeat my mantra that a lot of people smarter and more informed than you or I are often quite wrong about things.

 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

 

You are following the narrative of one of the most far right, extremist facist governments on the planet.  Good for you, you must be proud.

 

No, but you feel better right?

[stawns]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The population of Palestinians has tripled since 1960 from less than 2 million to almost 5.5 million. 1.6 million Palestinians also live as full Israeli citizens in Israel. 
 

Tell me again about genocide and ethnic cleansing since you are a history teacher. Do countries normally triple their population when they are a part of a genocide?  Is that what happened in WW2? Yugoslavia? Iraq?

 

who said anything about ethnic cleansing?

 

and, again, you are equating Jews and Israel to the government that has been in power since the mid 1990's.  That's like saying "the population of Jews in Europe rose from the 1880's to the 1940's, that doesn't seem like Genocide to me"

 

This government has made no secret of what they think of the Palestinians.........but you go ahead and beat that drum all you want, it doesn't change the reality on the ground.

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

No, but you feel better right?

 

absolutely not, I feel sick about what's going in while the world watches and does nothing about it........or worse, cheerleads from the sidelines.

[RomanPer]

18 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Over 2 million Arabs live as Israeli citizens with passports in Israel. Tell me again about genocide and ethnic cleansing. 
 

No wonder Roman doesn’t waste his time with any of you anymore. You’re a history teacher and you don’t even have a clue what an actual genocide is?  

 

Thank you. Also, seeing the state of our universities these days, I'm really curious what version of history they are learning there now. True historians are supposed to be operating with all the facts, not just a subset of them. When a "history major" asks a question that already includes his opinion, it clearly indicates his "degree".

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, soggy said:

 

would expelling arabs from a territory in order to create a majority Jewish population count as ethnic cleansing or no?

Definitions again.   Anything of that nature is what I would call a forced migration.

[King Heffy]

3 minutes ago, soggy said:

 

would expelling arabs from a territory in order to create a majority Jewish population count as ethnic cleansing or no?

Tell me again about the Jewish population in Gaza.

[Bob Long]

10 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

who said anything about ethnic cleansing?

 

and, again, you are equating Jews and Israel to the government that has been in power since the mid 1990's.  That's like saying "the population of Jews in Europe rose from the 1880's to the 1940's, that doesn't seem like Genocide to me"

 

This government has made no secret of what they think of the Palestinians.........but you go ahead and beat that drum all you want, it doesn't change the reality on the ground.

 

absolutely not, I feel sick about what's going in while the world watches and does nothing about it........or worse, cheerleads from the sidelines.

 

see what you're doing here? If I'm not with you, then I'm a Bibi cheerleader?

 

If you can't see how Hamas and its agencies are trying to manipulate the information war, I don't really know what else to say. 

[Elias Pettersson]

6 minutes ago, soggy said:

 

would expelling arabs from a territory in order to create a majority Jewish population count as ethnic cleansing or no?

 

Are you referring to the war in 1947 that was started by the Arabs and then they lost so their land was conquered?  And then they again started a war in 1967 and then lost again?  Usually, when countries lose wars they lose land.  All land is conquered.  That is what has happened throughout history.  So, if you consider that "ethnic cleansing", then every major country in the world including Canada has committed ethnic cleansing.  And you are currently living in a home that was taken away from its rightful owner many decades ago.  Are you prepared to give your home back to the original owner of the land?

[Bob Long]

16 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Tell me again about the Jewish population in Gaza.

 

this is such a key point. Israel is not like the countries and organizations attacking it. Is it perfect, by no means. But the hyperbole flying around destroys any chance of a meaningful conversation. 

[Yoshiyoshi]

2 hours ago, stawns said:

 

The jews in the polish ghettos fought back against the Germans..........were they terrorists or freedom fighters? 

 

You can't oppress people, treat them worse than animals and then expect them to be passive participants in that apartheid/genocide

You cant equate Palestinians to Jewish people in WW2, they dont match no matter how hard you try to force them into the same box. Did the Jewish people that fought back in WW2 do it by massacring 1200ish civilians? If so thats news to me.

1 hour ago, stawns said:

 

I'd call that for what it was, a terrorist.  A coordinated, extended seige upon innocent people , with intent to rid their country of that group of people is genocide

The siege of Gaza is not being waged on innocent people, it is being waged against Hamas which is among those people. There is no siege in history that didnt have innocents stuck behind the walls and I think you being a history teacher should know better than that.

 

Second point: Israel is not attempting to get rid of the Palestinians in this conflict(or at all) as can be shown by how they have waged the conflict. RomanP posted an excellent link yesterday about how the IDF does their work which was very informative. From the start they have taken steps to reduce civilian casualties by ordering the evacuation of the northern half of Gaza, and most recently pausing their offensive at times to allow people to evacuate. This shows that they have at the very least put the minimum effort needed to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties among the Palestinian population. So calling this conflict genocide is not only wrong, but it completely ignores all the efforts the IDF has undertaken to minimize the collateral damage in the conflict.

1 hour ago, stawns said:

 

If the mass killing of innocent civilians isn't genocide, what is it?

Again, completely loaded statement. "Mass killing" is a meaningless phrase here. Supposedly there are around 11000 dead, it is unknown how many of those 11000 are members of Hamas, how many were refusing to evacuate, how many were being forced to stay in position by Hamas, how many just were in the wrong place at the wrong time. You dont have this information same as I dont so rushing to judgement is just showing your bias.

Genocide again, being used here is wrong because genocide refers to the intent to exterminate a specific group of people. If you were to say they were committing genocide on Hamas, that might actually be accurate, im not sure. But saying it about the Palestinians when there is significant evidence showing otherwise is just continuing with the spread of false information and the narrative that Hamas is trying to spread.

 

56 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

I could probably have some agreement with that statement, but it's certainly headed in that direction.  This is the end of Gaza and you can bet Netanyahu has plans to occupy and rebuild it when they are done levelling it and it's pretty much assured there won't be any Palestinians left there alive

Again this is extremist propaganda. Im honestly struggling trying to come up with something to say here rather than just completely blowing it off. Ok, Netanyahu is a right wing POS and has definitely treated Palestinians poorly in the past, but there is a big difference between that garbage and what you are saying hes going to do. He isnt a dictator that can just do whatever he wants and he has enough trouble with people being unhappy with his government. Unless you are trying to say that the Israeli people and IDF are in favor of genocide too. You can argue all you want about the wrongness that Israel has done to the Palestinians, I even agree with some of it. But when it comes to the response to the Oct 7th attack, Israel is responding appropriately to it at least so far. 9/11 triggered 20 years of warfare, hopefully this conflict will be over in a much shorter time so people can go back and try to rebuild.

[Super19]

51 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

see what you're doing here? If I'm not with you, then I'm a Bibi cheerleader?

 

If you can't see how Hamas and its agencies are trying to manipulate the information war, I don't really know what else to say. 

I've seen way more manipulation from Israel tbh. From fake videos, flat out lies and propaganda. Imagine if Gazans did even 10% of the manipulation Israel is doing right now...

[Bob Long]

Just now, Super19 said:

I've seen way more manipulation from Israel tbh. From fake videos, flat out lies and propaganda. Imagine if Gazans did even 10% of the manipulation Israel is doing right now...

 

not sure how you can put any kind of a percentage on it?

 

I'd like to imagine Gazan's want Hamas the hell out of their lives. 

[Super19]

55 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Tell me again about the Jewish population in Gaza.

They have and prefer to live in Israel? That's why the state was made right?

There's also palestenian Christians too.

Also, at this rate, it looks like many Israelis will be living in Gaza after pushing the Palestenians out or killing them.

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

not sure how you can put any kind of a percentage on it?

 

I'd like to imagine Gazan's want Hamas the hell out of their lives. 

I agree Hamas brought this attack by Israel on the innocent Gazans.

I don't know if Hamas expected to see this heavy handed response if not for some greater purpose because as terroristic as they are, I don't think Hamas devalues Palestenian lives to this extent, and also to see Gaza this destroyed.

Perhaps they underestimated the lack of humanity Israel has had in their swift response which has killed a lot of innocents and displaced 1.5million. How can we tell how destroyed the Hamas faction is right now? If they are all in tunnels, why haven't we seen videos of these tunnels and the army of Hamas soldiers lurking under Gaza destroyed?

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Super19 said:

I agree Hamas brought this attack by Israel on the innocent Gazans.

I don't know if Hamas expected to see this heavy handed response if not for some greater purpose because as terroristic as they are, I don't think Hamas devalues Palestenian lives to this extent, and also to see Gaza this destroyed.

Perhaps they underestimated the lack of humanity Israel has had in their swift response which has killed a lot of innocents and displaced 1.5million. How can we tell how destroyed the Hamas faction is right now? If they are all in tunnels, why haven't we seen videos of these tunnels and the army of Hamas soldiers lurking under Gaza destroyed?

 

Hamas was likely banking on an even harder response. So far it hasn't dragged in other countries with it, which was the point.

 

There is a good article in the ny times last week with Hamas leadership openly discussing how they hope this leads to permanent war. If you want to discuss humanity, let's start there?