Hamas attacking Israel

[Satchmo]

In case anyone thinks I am opposed to advanced education or academic freedom I can assure you I am not.  This is more than that I think.

 Found document suggests Iran sought to help Hamas make its own weapons ahead of attack, sources say

A document recovered from a computer found inside a Hamas pickup truck outside Gaza, obtained by CNN from Israeli officials, shows a Hamas military commander requesting a scholarship for Hamas operatives to study engineering, physics and technology at universities in Iran.

 

While it is widely known that Iran provides financial and military support to Hamas, Israeli officials and some former US intelligence officials say the document is evidence that in the run up to the October 7 attack on southern Israel, Iran was seeking to provide technical training that would help Hamas produce its own weaponry.

 

The Israeli government declined to comment on the document, though sources in the government confirmed its authenticity on background.

 

CNN could not independently verify the authenticity of the letter, but current and former US officials said that it was consistent with how Iran projects power throughout the Middle East. Iran has used scholarships to build its influence, develop potential intelligence assets and promote its ideology since the founding of Lebanese Hezbollah in the 1980s.

 

The document appears to be a July letter from a Hamas military commander to the Iranian government requesting that seven members of his unit be permitted to travel to Iran to participate in a scholarship program.

 

Current and former US officials say the program is part of a well-known training program Iran provides to students from allied countries and groups to project soft-power influence across the region.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/politics/document-iran-hamas-weapons/index.html

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Satchmo
formatting

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

Never said you labeled him.

 

Academics are wrong all the time of course.  Unless they're not and it doesn't conform to an individuals specific bias or emotional leaning.

 

In this instance id lean towards experts in their fields being far more accurate to the situation than others who are not.

 

the problem is, imo, we have too many moving goalposts. We hear people initially start out with "apartheid" and "genocide" and then back track a bit and say, well, it may not be yet, but thats the way its going or some such thing. But then the damage is done, we've labelled Israel as genocidal and now they have to prove that they aren't. Its backwards. 

 

If we're going to appeal to authority on this, then we'd better get our terms correct and agreed to. 

 

If we're going to expand the boundaries of what these terms mean, what are we supposed to do next? If we are really doing this, e.g., what are we to do about China? they are clearly doing this to the Uyghurs. I can bet you've bought something from China recently, but I'd be surprised if you bought something from Israel. Why aren't we cutting off China completely? What about the Saudi's?

 

I'd just like to know where our new found terms are taking us. 

[RomanPer]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

the problem is, imo, we have too many moving goalposts. We hear people initially start out with "apartheid" and "genocide" and then back track a bit and say, well, it may not be yet, but thats the way its going or some such thing. But then the damage is done, we've labelled Israel as genocidal and now they have to prove that they aren't. Its backwards. 

 

If we're going to appeal to authority on this, then we'd better get our terms correct and agreed to. 

 

If we're going to expand the boundaries of what these terms mean, what are we supposed to do next? If we are really doing this, e.g., what are we to do about China? they are clearly doing this to the Uyghurs. I can bet you've bought something from China recently, but I'd be surprised if you bought something from Israel. Why aren't we cutting off China completely? What about the Saudi's?

 

I'd just like to know where our new found terms are taking us. 

 

He actually bought plenty from Israel, he just doesn’t know it or invents an excuse to justify his purchase. If all the anti-Israel crowd indeed fully stopped buying anything related to Israel, the world would be significantly different place. Internet for sure would be less antisemitic.

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

He actually bought plenty from Israel, he just doesn’t know it or invents an excuse to justify his purchase. If all the anti-Israel crowd indeed fully stopped buying anything related to Israel, the world would be significantly different place. Internet for sure would be less antisemitic.

 

I really would just like to know where we are going with all this? Is the definition creep just for Israel, or are we applying it to the globe?

[Satchmo]

While we are on the subject of words and the war of words...

 

‘Erase Gaza’: War Unleashes Incendiary Rhetoric in Israel

Experts say that inflammatory statements by prominent Israelis are normalizing ideas like the killing of civilians and mass deportations.

 

Shock, grief and pain have cascaded across Israel since Hamas gunmen poured out of Gaza to kill an estimated 1,200 Israeli civilians and soldiers on Oct. 7. So have anger and a thirst for vengeance, which the country’s leaders are verbalizing in language that critics in Israel say often crosses the line into incitement.

 

The cumulative effect, experts say, has been to normalize public discussion of ideas that would have been considered off limits before Oct. 7: talk of “erasing” the people of Gaza, ethnic cleansing, and the nuclear annihilation of the territory.

 

Incendiary statements are not limited to Israel, of course. Ghazi Hamad, a senior leader of Hamas, vowed on Oct. 24 that the group would wipe out Israel as a country, and appeared to exult in the barbaric acts that his militants had carried out against Israeli civilians. “We are not ashamed to say it with full force,” he said. “We have to teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it again and again.”

 

In the long run, Mr. Sfard said, such language dooms the chance of ending the conflict with the Palestinians, erodes Israel’s democracy and breeds a younger generation that is “easily using the language in their discussion with their friends.”

 

“Once a certain rhetoric becomes legitimized, turning the wheel back requires a lot of education,” he said. “There is an old Jewish proverb: ‘A hundred wise men will struggle a long time to take out a stone that one stupid person dropped into the well.’”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war-rhetoric.html

 

Edit - this is not meant to be an anti Israeli post.   It's an anti inflammatory rhetoric post.   And maybe a bit anti politician....

Edited November 15, 2023 by Satchmo

[Warhippy]

37 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

the problem is, imo, we have too many moving goalposts. We hear people initially start out with "apartheid" and "genocide" and then back track a bit and say, well, it may not be yet, but thats the way its going or some such thing. But then the damage is done, we've labelled Israel as genocidal and now they have to prove that they aren't. Its backwards. 

 

If we're going to appeal to authority on this, then we'd better get our terms correct and agreed to. 

 

If we're going to expand the boundaries of what these terms mean, what are we supposed to do next? If we are really doing this, e.g., what are we to do about China? they are clearly doing this to the Uyghurs. I can bet you've bought something from China recently, but I'd be surprised if you bought something from Israel. Why aren't we cutting off China completely? What about the Saudi's?

 

I'd just like to know where our new found terms are taking us. 

Splitting hairs and you know it.

[Warhippy]

11 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

While we are the subject of words and the war of words...

 

‘Erase Gaza’: War Unleashes Incendiary Rhetoric in Israel

Experts say that inflammatory statements by prominent Israelis are normalizing ideas like the killing of civilians and mass deportations.

 

Shock, grief and pain have cascaded across Israel since Hamas gunmen poured out of Gaza to kill an estimated 1,200 Israeli civilians and soldiers on Oct. 7. So have anger and a thirst for vengeance, which the country’s leaders are verbalizing in language that critics in Israel say often crosses the line into incitement.

 

The cumulative effect, experts say, has been to normalize public discussion of ideas that would have been considered off limits before Oct. 7: talk of “erasing” the people of Gaza, ethnic cleansing, and the nuclear annihilation of the territory.

 

Incendiary statements are not limited to Israel, of course. Ghazi Hamad, a senior leader of Hamas, vowed on Oct. 24 that the group would wipe out Israel as a country, and appeared to exult in the barbaric acts that his militants had carried out against Israeli civilians. “We are not ashamed to say it with full force,” he said. “We have to teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it again and again.”

 

In the long run, Mr. Sfard said, such language dooms the chance of ending the conflict with the Palestinians, erodes Israel’s democracy and breeds a younger generation that is “easily using the language in their discussion with their friends.”

 

“Once a certain rhetoric becomes legitimized, turning the wheel back requires a lot of education,” he said. “There is an old Jewish proverb: ‘A hundred wise men will struggle a long time to take out a stone that one stupid person dropped into the well.’”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war-rhetoric.html

 

Edit - this is not meant to be an anti Israeli post.   It's an anti inflammatory rhetoric post.   And maybe a bit anti politician....

It's no different than anything said from the other side.

 

It's been a large part of my comments and statements regarding Israeli policy.  A politician and a criminal have very little difference between them, one is just more successful than the other.  The same goes for murderers.

 

Hamas wants to wipe out Israel.  Israel wants to wipe out Hamas.  The end result is that Palestinians suffer and lose land, home and lives and the divide grows.

[Bob Long]

17 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Splitting hairs and you know it.

 

No I'm trying to find out where this is all going.

 

If we apply this definition to Israel, then Canada is in trouble, wouldn't you agree?

 

Or if this new usage is just meant for Israel then I think we know what that is.

[Bob Long]

27 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

While we are the subject of words and the war of words...

 

‘Erase Gaza’: War Unleashes Incendiary Rhetoric in Israel

Experts say that inflammatory statements by prominent Israelis are normalizing ideas like the killing of civilians and mass deportations.

 

Shock, grief and pain have cascaded across Israel since Hamas gunmen poured out of Gaza to kill an estimated 1,200 Israeli civilians and soldiers on Oct. 7. So have anger and a thirst for vengeance, which the country’s leaders are verbalizing in language that critics in Israel say often crosses the line into incitement.

 

The cumulative effect, experts say, has been to normalize public discussion of ideas that would have been considered off limits before Oct. 7: talk of “erasing” the people of Gaza, ethnic cleansing, and the nuclear annihilation of the territory.

 

Incendiary statements are not limited to Israel, of course. Ghazi Hamad, a senior leader of Hamas, vowed on Oct. 24 that the group would wipe out Israel as a country, and appeared to exult in the barbaric acts that his militants had carried out against Israeli civilians. “We are not ashamed to say it with full force,” he said. “We have to teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it again and again.”

 

In the long run, Mr. Sfard said, such language dooms the chance of ending the conflict with the Palestinians, erodes Israel’s democracy and breeds a younger generation that is “easily using the language in their discussion with their friends.”

 

“Once a certain rhetoric becomes legitimized, turning the wheel back requires a lot of education,” he said. “There is an old Jewish proverb: ‘A hundred wise men will struggle a long time to take out a stone that one stupid person dropped into the well.’”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war-rhetoric.html

 

Edit - this is not meant to be an anti Israeli post.   It's an anti inflammatory rhetoric post.   And maybe a bit anti politician....

 

This is it. What are we actually trying to legitimize?

[Odd.]

I think the only conceivable way to end this war is for another country to step in and police the situation. Israel has gone too far with the bombing campaigns and Hamas continues to hide and cover amongst innocent civilians going as far as to wipe their own. 
 

This would mean dodging Netanyahu and coming into this situation as a neutral force. I’m hoping France and their increasingly neutral approach to this conflict take lead.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Odd.

[Taxi]

2 minutes ago, Odd. said:

I think the only conceivable way to end this war is for another country to step in and police the situation. Israel has gone too far with the bombing campaigns and Hamas continues to hide and cover amongst innocent civilians going as far as to wipe their own. 
 

This would mean dodging Netanyahu and coming into this situation as a neutral force. I’m hoping France and their increasingly neutral approach to this conflict take lead.

 

I agree with this 100%. Specifically, if the Arab league would offer to step in and perform an actual rebuilding process, as opposed to further radicalization, it could be an opportunity that could lead to genuine peace in the region. Prior to October 7, 2023, Israel and the Saudis were on the verge of a peace process. Maybe the parties involved can find a way to incorporate that process into resolving the current conflict.

[Bob Long]

14 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

I agree with this 100%. Specifically, if the Arab league would offer to step in and perform an actual rebuilding process, as opposed to further radicalization, it could be an opportunity that could lead to genuine peace in the region. Prior to October 7, 2023, Israel and the Saudis were on the verge of a peace process. Maybe the parties involved can find a way to incorporate that process into resolving the current conflict.

 

Interesting idea, but what's in it for the Saudi's? 

[4petesake]

32 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

This is it. What are we actually trying to legitimize?

 

My issue is with the use of the word genocide in this thread. If we go by @stawns definition very few wars in history were not genocidal. After firebombing Tokyo didn’t get Japan to surrender the Americans dropped Little Boy on the city of Hiroshima. When Japan “only” offered a conditional surrender they dropped Fat Man on Nagasaki to get the unconditional surrender they were after. It was wholesale slaughter of civilians to bring a quicker end to the war and save US servicemen’s lives. What the Israel’s are doing pales in comparison but that matters little to the people dying.
 

Using the term genocide only inflames emotions and rhetoric and has us wasting time arguing about the word. I guess my point is that innocent civilians are dying on both sides, just like they always have and probably always will.

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

15 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

 

My issue is with the use of the word genocide in this thread. If we go by @stawns definition very few wars in history were not genocidal. After firebombing Tokyo didn’t get Japan to surrender the Americans dropped Little Boy on the city of Hiroshima. When Japan “only” offered a conditional surrender they dropped Fat Man on Nagasaki to get the unconditional surrender they were after. It was wholesale slaughter of civilians to bring a quicker end to the war and save US servicemen’s lives. What the Israel’s are doing pales in comparison but that matters little to the people dying.
 

Using the term genocide only inflames emotions and rhetoric and has us wasting time arguing about the word. I guess my point is that innocent civilians are dying on both sides, just like they always have and probably always will.

 

 

 

 

[4petesake]

11 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

 

 

 

It’s been awhile and I had forgotten this song, thanks!

 

One of the very best and powerful scenes from All in the Family on war. Archie’s friend who has lost his son in the war in Viet Nam meets Mike’s draft dodger friend. Archie’s line “if everyone did that you couldn’t get a decent war off the ground” resonates.

 

 

 

[Taxi]

46 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Interesting idea, but what's in it for the Saudi's? 

An alliance against Iran. Rewards from the USA. Building their own ally in the Palestinians. Ensuring the area is safe for the construction of their new mega project Neom, which is just down the road.

[moosehead]

Hundreds of pro-Palestinian protesters surrounded a Vancouver Chinatown restaurant where Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was dining Tuesday night, with scores of police sent to control the crowd that was chanting for a ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war.

 

Sgt. Steve Addison said police used a Taser to subdue one man who was arrested for assaulting an officer, while another was arrested for obstruction.

 

Addison told a news conference that police were concerned about “specific actions” by the Chinatown protesters, including the moving of protective barricades.

 

He said 100 officers attended what he called a “spontaneous” protest by about 250 people just before 10 p.m. He said the officers had been sent to control the crowd so Trudeau could leave the restaurant.

 

Videos showed protesters waving Palestinian flags, shouting slogans and jeering Trudeau outside the Bargheera restaurant and cocktail bar on Main Street in Chinatown.

 

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/100-vancouver-police-sent-after-protest-surrounds-trudeau-at-restaurant

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, 4petesake said:

 

My issue is with the use of the word genocide in this thread. If we go by @stawns definition very few wars in history were not genocidal. After firebombing Tokyo didn’t get Japan to surrender the Americans dropped Little Boy on the city of Hiroshima. When Japan “only” offered a conditional surrender they dropped Fat Man on Nagasaki to get the unconditional surrender they were after. It was wholesale slaughter of civilians to bring a quicker end to the war and save US servicemen’s lives. What the Israel’s are doing pales in comparison but that matters little to the people dying.
 

Using the term genocide only inflames emotions and rhetoric and has us wasting time arguing about the word. I guess my point is that innocent civilians are dying on both sides, just like they always have and probably always will.

 

 

 

This is it. Its not 'hair splitting' these terms matter in the sense of, what are we going to follow it up with? 

 

Are we actually going to implement some action against Israel alone? or do we all pay for our collective sins now? are we just rage farming on social media?

 

And yes in the meantime a lot of innocent people die in a war. Its shit, no way around it. 

 

I think the left in particular falling all over itself to use these terms is really disappointing, but I guess not surprising. 

 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, 4petesake said:

 

My issue is with the use of the word genocide in this thread. If we go by @stawns definition very few wars in history were not genocidal. After firebombing Tokyo didn’t get Japan to surrender the Americans dropped Little Boy on the city of Hiroshima. When Japan “only” offered a conditional surrender they dropped Fat Man on Nagasaki to get the unconditional surrender they were after. It was wholesale slaughter of civilians to bring a quicker end to the war and save US servicemen’s lives. What the Israel’s are doing pales in comparison but that matters little to the people dying.
 

Using the term genocide only inflames emotions and rhetoric and has us wasting time arguing about the word. I guess my point is that innocent civilians are dying on both sides, just like they always have and probably always will.

 

 

This inaccurately depicts just how many more innocent civilians the IDF are killing. Hamas and the IDF are not going tit for tat with the killing of innocent civillians, the IDF is killing way way more and continuing to do so.

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

I think the left in particular falling all over itself to use these terms is really disappointing, but I guess not surprising. 

 

 

I think the right's support for the Israel collective punishment of innocent civilians and children is even more disappointing... but i guess not surprising. 

[Bob Long]

49 minutes ago, Taxi said:

An alliance against Iran. Rewards from the USA. Building their own ally in the Palestinians. Ensuring the area is safe for the construction of their new mega project Neom, which is just down the road.

 

Dunno, I think thats going to be a hard sell. The Saudi royal family has become literal trillionaires watching the Palestinian conflict all this time, I don't know that they would see a return on their investment in Gaza from their pov. 

 

I think it would be easier just to let the US handle Iranian nuclear capabilities, and pretend to be outraged. 

 

[4petesake]

5 minutes ago, Super19 said:

This inaccurately depicts just how many more innocent civilians the IDF are killing. Hamas and the IDF are not going tit for tat with the killing of innocent civillians, the IDF is killing way way more and continuing to do so.

 

Of course the deaths are asymmetrical. That was not my point.

[Super19]

 

[Taxi]

20 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Dunno, I think thats going to be a hard sell. The Saudi royal family has become literal trillionaires watching the Palestinian conflict all this time, I don't know that they would see a return on their investment in Gaza from their pov. 

 

I think it would be easier just to let the US handle Iranian nuclear capabilities, and pretend to be outraged. 

 

 

I do think the Saudis perspective on funding militants has changed dramatically since ISIS. They lost any kind of control of ISIS, and ISIS started preaching parts of the Quran that specifically state leadership cannot be inherited. That became a huge problem for the Saudis.

 

I don't know if it's the Saudis that should take control directly, but they are certainly in the driving seat of the Arab League and have the best ability to bring about change.

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

I do think the Saudis perspective on funding militants has changed dramatically since ISIS. They lost any kind of control of ISIS, and ISIS started preaching parts of the Quran that specifically state leadership cannot be inherited. That became a huge problem for the Saudis.

 

I don't know if it's the Saudis that should take control directly, but they are certainly in the driving seat of the Arab League and have the best ability to bring about change.

 

I don't know anything about how the Arab League run or how the internal politics would work to help rebuild Gaza - it would be interesting to see an analysis on it for sure. Not one from Al Jazeera, but if there was something a bit more independent.