Hamas attacking Israel

[stawns]

2 hours ago, 4petesake said:

 

My issue is with the use of the word genocide in this thread. If we go by @stawns definition very few wars in history were not genocidal. After firebombing Tokyo didn’t get Japan to surrender the Americans dropped Little Boy on the city of Hiroshima. When Japan “only” offered a conditional surrender they dropped Fat Man on Nagasaki to get the unconditional surrender they were after. It was wholesale slaughter of civilians to bring a quicker end to the war and save US servicemen’s lives. What the Israel’s are doing pales in comparison but that matters little to the people dying.
 

Using the term genocide only inflames emotions and rhetoric and has us wasting time arguing about the word. I guess my point is that innocent civilians are dying on both sides, just like they always have and probably always will.

 

 

When the goal is to completely remove a population from a place or existence, it's genocide.

 

It's highly unlikely that the few Palestinians who survive will ever return to Gaza.  By this time next, Israel will most likely have taken it completely over.  The West Bank will be next

[Satchmo]

6 minutes ago, stawns said:

When the goal is to completely remove a population from a place or existence, it's genocide.

 

It's highly unlikely that the few Palestinians who survive will ever return to Gaza.  By this time next, Israel will most likely have taken it completely over.  The West Bank will be next

When people can't agree on the definition of a word, it's semantics.

 

When people can't know the future yet predict it, it's speculation.

[Bob Long]

9 minutes ago, stawns said:

When the goal is to completely remove a population from a place or existence, it's genocide.

 

It's highly unlikely that the few Palestinians who survive will ever return to Gaza.  By this time next, Israel will most likely have taken it completely over.  The West Bank will be next

 

Setting aside that not even Bibi has suggested this, why would you think the US would back this? without US support, Israel would have a hard time surviving. 

 

[moosehead]

18 minutes ago, stawns said:

When the goal is to completely remove a population from a place or existence, it's genocide.

 

It's highly unlikely that the few Palestinians who survive will ever return to Gaza.  By this time next, Israel will most likely have taken it completely over.  The West Bank will be next

 

Israeli government's  goal is a jewish / Zionist state.      This much is clear and not even debatable. 

 

The elimination of palestinians and their culture has always been the long term goal of an oppressive extremist Israeli state. 

 

Amnesty International’s new investigation shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Jewish Israelis. This amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law.

 

Laws, policies and practices which are intended to maintain a cruel system of control over Palestinians, have left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in a constant state of fear and insecurity.

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

DOWNLOAD THE FULL REPORT

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by moosehead

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Setting aside that not even Bibi has suggested this, why would you think the US would back this? without US support, Israel would have a hard time surviving. 

 

Your guess is as good as mine, but they do.  It's not like this is some outlier event, it's just the next step in a long process that's been happening for 30 years.

 

[Bob Long]

Just now, stawns said:

Your guess is as good as mine, but they do.  It's not like this is some outlier event, it's just the next step in a long process that's been happening for 30 years.

 

 

maybe people should stop attacking Israel then? it doesn't seem to work out well. 

 

There's no way that the US backs such an extreme idea. Not to mention, you're forgetting about the Arab Israeli population. What happens to them? 

 

Zero chance this happens, imo. 

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

 

Israeli government's  goal is a jewish / Zionist state.      This much is clear and not even debatable. 

 

The elimination of palestinians and their culture has always been the long term goal of an oppressive extremist Israeli state. 

That settles it then.   Thanks for letting us know.

 

Opinions do not become facts just by voicing them assuredly.  You could try all caps, but I don't think that works either.

[stawns]

7 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

When people can't agree on the definition of a word, it's semantics.

 

When people can't know the future yet predict it, it's speculation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/12/main-gaza-hospital-totally-surrounded-director-says-as-netanyahu-rejects-ceasefire-calls

 

"Netanyahu also made clear he wanted Israel to retain overall security control after any conflict “with the ability to go in whenever we want in order to kill terrorists”."

 

It's not like it's been done big international secret about what this extreme govts plans are.  Ask the people in the West Bank

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

maybe people should stop attacking Israel then? it doesn't seem to work out well. 

 

There's no way that the US backs such an extreme idea. Not to mention, you're forgetting about the Arab Israeli population. What happens to them? 

 

Zero chance this happens, imo. 

Cmon, you're smarter than that

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

That settles it then.   Thanks for letting us know.

 

Opinions do not become facts just by voicing them assuredly.  You could try all caps, but I don't think that works either.

 

Amnesty International’s new investigation shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Jewish Israelis. This amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law.

 

Laws, policies and practices which are intended to maintain a cruel system of control over Palestinians, have left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in a constant state of fear and insecurity.

 

Amnesty is calling for Israel to end the international wrong, and crime, of apartheid, by dismantling measures of fragmentation, segregation, discrimination, and deprivation, currently in place against the Palestinian population.

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

Edited November 15, 2023 by moosehead

[4petesake]

5 minutes ago, stawns said:

When the goal is to completely remove a population from a place or existence, it's genocide.

 

It's highly unlikely that the few Palestinians who survive will ever return to Gaza.  By this time next, Israel will most likely have taken it completely over.  The West Bank will be next

 

I was genuinely interested to hear your thoughts  on the US firebombing Tokyo and then dropping two nuclear devices and whether you considered that to be genocide. It certainly was by your earlier definition . You could argue that after postwar efforts by the Americans to help re-build Japan show that their aims were not genocidal. If so does that mean we need to see what Israel does after the conflict is over to know?

 

You may or may not be correct on your last paragraph.

[moosehead]

4 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

That settles it then.   Thanks for letting us know.

 

Opinions do not become facts just by voicing them assuredly.  You could try all caps, but I don't think that works either.

 

As the civilian death toll continues to rise from Israel’s war in Gaza in response to Hamas’s October 7 attack, more and more voices have warned of genocide.

 

On November 2, United Nations experts said in a joint statement that Palestinians in Gaza were at “grave risk of genocide.” And on October 28, the director of the New York office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights stepped down because, as he wrote in his resignation letter, “we are seeing a genocide unfolding before our eyes [in Gaza] and the Organization that we serve appears powerless to stop it.”

 

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/13/23954731/genocide-israel-gaza-palestine

[stawns]

Just now, 4petesake said:

 

I was genuinely interested to hear your thoughts  on the US firebombing Tokyo and then dropping two nuclear devices and whether you considered that to be genocide. It certainly was by your earlier definition . You could argue that after postwar efforts by the Americans to help re-build Japan show that their aims were not genocidal. If so does that mean we need to see what Israel does after the conflict is over to know?

 

You may or may not be correct on your last paragraph.

There intention was to end the war and minimize American casualties that would have piled up in an invasion of Japan, so, no, I don't consider that genocide.  Their intention wasn't to eliminate an entire group of people from existence.

 

Horrible, disturbing, un-necessary........ definitely.  Genocide, no.

 

[Satchmo]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/12/main-gaza-hospital-totally-surrounded-director-says-as-netanyahu-rejects-ceasefire-calls

 

"Netanyahu also made clear he wanted Israel to retain overall security control after any conflict “with the ability to go in whenever we want in order to kill terrorists”."

 

It's not like it's been done big international secret about what this extreme govts plans are.  Ask the people in the West Bank

That's a bit of a step back from what you said a few posts back.

 

I think we can agree that Bibi is a scumbag.   What he wants, or at least says he wants, is and will continue to be tempered by what his western allies want.

[Satchmo]

2 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

As the civilian death toll continues to rise from Israel’s war in Gaza in response to Hamas’s October 7 attack, more and more voices have warned of genocide.

 

On November 2, United Nations experts said in a joint statement that Palestinians in Gaza were at “grave risk of genocide.” And on October 28, the director of the New York office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights stepped down because, as he wrote in his resignation letter, “we are seeing a genocide unfolding before our eyes [in Gaza] and the Organization that we serve appears powerless to stop it.”

 

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/13/23954731/genocide-israel-gaza-palestine

That really settles it.

[moosehead]

Just now, Satchmo said:

That really settles it.

 

The world does not support Israel oppression / occupation.   You can make all the false claims you want, but collective punishment of civilians is a  war crime.

 

[King Heffy]

7 minutes ago, stawns said:

There intention was to end the war and minimize American casualties that would have piled up in an invasion of Japan, so, no, I don't consider that genocide.  Their intention wasn't to eliminate an entire group of people from existence.

 

Horrible, disturbing, un-necessary........ definitely.  Genocide, no.

 

You can easily make the same argument that the air strikes are being made to prevent causalities for the Israeli troops.  

[stawns]

6 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

That's a bit of a step back from what you said a few posts back.

 

I think we can agree that Bibi is a scumbag.   What he wants, or at least says he wants, is and will continue to be tempered by what his western allies want.

 

Not really a step back, no.  Do you really think there'll be any Palestinians left in gaza?  The few who are killed will obviously flee, if Egypt even lets them.  Everyone else will be designated a terrorist.  

 

I can't believe normally even keeled people would support a government like this.

Just now, King Heffy said:

You can easily make the same argument that the air strikes are being made to prevent causalities for the Israeli troops.  

[Satchmo]

2 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

The world does not support Israel oppression / occupation.   You can make all the false claims you want, but collective punishment of civilians is a  war crime.

 

We are all entitled to our right to make false claims it would seem.

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

Not really a step back, no.  Do you really think there'll be any Palestinians left in gaza?  The few who are killed will obviously flee, if Egypt even lets them.  Everyone else will be designated a terrorist.  

 

I can't believe normally even keeled people would support a government like this.

 

 

I am always surprised with how naive some Canadians are with the history of the Israeli state  and how Palestine has been slowly absorbed.

Great to see countries like France where citizens seem to be so much educated in regards to world politics / history. 

 

All humans deserve to be free .    Human rights for all. 

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

 

Not really a step back, no.  Do you really think there'll be any Palestinians left in gaza?  The few who are killed will obviously flee, if Egypt even lets them.  Everyone else will be designated a terrorist.  

 

I can't believe normally even keeled people would support a government like this.

Who is supporting a 'government like this'?

 

As for the rest, I'll just have to repeat a previous reply - 'We'll see'.   My gut say's yes, there will be Palestinians in Gaza.

 

[moosehead]

13 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

You can easily make the same argument that the air strikes are being made to prevent causalities for the Israeli troops.  

 

Yes, all drug  / gang murders in vancouver  reduce car accident fatalities and cancer related deaths. 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by moosehead

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

 

Yes, all drug  / gang murders in vancouver to reduce car accident fatalities and cancer related deaths. 

 

I know I have not been kind to your comebacks but I have to say that was a pretty good one.

 

(Sorry Heffy)

[4petesake]

4 minutes ago, stawns said:

There intention was to end the war and minimize American casualties that would have piled up in an invasion of Japan, so, no, I don't consider that genocide.  Their intention wasn't to eliminate an entire group of people from existence.

 

Horrible, disturbing, un-necessary........ definitely.  Genocide, no.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying. I was responding to your statement that “if mass killing of innocent civilians isn’t genocide, what is it?” So you do agree that by your definition that is not necessarily so?

 

Don’t misunderstand me,  I’m not looking for a ‘gotcha’ rather just saying that using the word has us arguing definitions.

[Elias Pettersson]

54 minutes ago, stawns said:

When the goal is to completely remove a population from a place or existence, it's genocide.

 

It's highly unlikely that the few Palestinians who survive will ever return to Gaza.  By this time next, Israel will most likely have taken it completely over.  The West Bank will be next

Over 1.6 million Palestinians live as Israeli citizens with passports in Israel. Your claim of genocide is bogus and without any merit whatsoever. It’s simply Hamas propaganda. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Over 1.6 million Palestinians live as Israeli citizens with passports in Israel. Your claim of genocide is bogus and without any merit whatsoever. It’s simply Hamas propaganda. 

They're able to vote in Israel.  They can't in Gaza.