Hamas attacking Israel

[Super19]

 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

12 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 

 

 

While I can not know the origin of this video, and I don't want to take the time to geolocate it. I want to point out three things that instantly make me leery of it as an authentic IDF member: the mosque has lit up windows above, and apparently a wide open door that he tosses the flashbang into, but there is zero light in that doorway. His pants and boots do not appear to be issued IDF kit, nor his shoulder flash of what seems to be an SS style skull. His gait and mannerisms do not seem as those of a trained IDF member. Lastly, the staging of the video itself; the camera is being held up around face level by another person. It isn't a body cam, it is a cell phone. 

To me the initial viewing of this video, moments ago, raised a lot of flags about it being an authentic one of an IDF soldier. It may be, but I would want to track it back to the phone that recorded it and who's phone that is. The Authorities can and likely will do that. Not to mention the face of the 'soldier' is fairly well revealed, so tracking the video to its device and therefore the device holder and then contact chaining that data to reveal the person being filmed and ultimately interviewing that person will tell us a whole lot. My suspicion is that militants got hold of an IDF helmet and worked to stage this propaganda video. Primarily based on what I have just said AND the fact that this video only serves Hamas and their allies, it in no way serves Israel or the IDF. If it is real, I expect this guy to face rather stiff penalties internally. 

[Optimist Prime]

65 square KM's remain outside of IDF control in Northern Gaza, from a start of around 110 square KM's, so IDF has captured 45 square km now. 
Of the remaining 65, roughly 30 square km's is more or less easily taken and held as it is out in the open. The hardest work has been done already in the North. I would guess another week and most of this map will be in IDF control, almost all of it in fact. This stage is much less deadly to the civilian population, and will hopefully serve as a template for the remaining two sections of Gaza. 

[moosehead]

17 Nov 2023

 

United States Secretary of State Antony Blinken has asked Israel to take “urgent” steps to stop violence being carried out by Israeli settlers against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank.

 

The top US diplomat made the call in a telephone call with Benny Gantz, a centrist opposition leader who joined Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s wartime cabinet after Hamas’s October 7 attacks on Israel.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/17/chkus-blinken-urges-israel-to-stop-settler-violence-in-west-bank

 

Although the bulk of Israel’s military action since 7 October has focused on Gaza, the occupied West Bank has also seen an uptick in violence.

 

This has come from increased tensions, and violence, between Israeli settlers and Palestinians, as well as Israeli military raids.

Almost 200 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank since the Hamas attacks, the UN says, mainly by Israeli forces.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67446662

Edited November 17, 2023 by moosehead

[Bob Long]

12 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

65 square KM's remain outside of IDF control in Northern Gaza, from a start of around 110 square KM's, so IDF has captured 45 square km now. 
Of the remaining 65, roughly 30 square km's is more or less easily taken and held as it is out in the open. The hardest work has been done already in the North. I would guess another week and most of this map will be in IDF control, almost all of it in fact. This stage is much less deadly to the civilian population, and will hopefully serve as a template for the remaining two sections of Gaza. 

 

 

Hopefully a lot less has to happen for the south to be out of Hamas control. It's clear Hamas won't retain any control anywhere, its just a matter of a few weeks, so hopefully the Palestinians can bring in a group that can actually negotiate a lasting peace agreement.  I suspect thats going to take many months to work out. 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

8 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

Hopefully a lot less has to happen for the south to be out of Hamas control. It's clear Hamas won't retain any control anywhere, its just a matter of a few weeks, so hopefully the Palestinians can bring in a group that can actually negotiate a lasting peace agreement.  I suspect thats going to take many months to work out. 

 

 

I am hopeful that the Israeli's and international community are swift to build camps and aid stations in the Northern 'third' once the operation there is significantly finished. If I had to guess, the day that will be is roughly the 27th or 28th of November: and after that a flood of food, water and medical aid should flow into that region if the IDF expects the civilians to then flee another region. 

 

OH, and I had a good long look at the TIKTOKer Super19 posted a video from: he is 100% a Hamas propagandist. There is not one trustworthy post on that account. 

[moosehead]

'We have a high amount of evidence, thus we request an arrest warrant against Netanyahu,' Gilles Devers tells Anadolu

 

PARIS

 

A French lawyer considered a voice of Palestinian victims at the International Criminal Court has denounced the ongoing Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip.

Gilles Devers told Anadolu that he filed a complaint at the tribunal based in The Hague against Israel's air strikes in Gaza, accusing the country of "genocide."

 

He said war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide were being handled separately at the ICC, adding that the sufferings of the Palestinians were different than those of Rohingya Muslims

 

According to him, the situation in Gaza is also worse than what happened in Srebrenica in 1995, recalling that 8,600 people were killed there during what was considered a genocide.

 

"We have a high amount of evidence, thus we request an arrest warrant against (Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin) Netanyahu," Devers said. "We found shocking images of Israeli soldiers acting out of revenge, that could be considered inhumane."

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/palestinian-victims-voice-at-icc-french-lawyer-denounces-israeli-genocide-in-gaza/3055588

Edited November 17, 2023 by moosehead

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I am hopeful that the Israeli's and international community are swift to build camps and aid stations in the Northern 'third' once the operation there is significantly finished. If I had to guess, the day that will be is roughly the 27th or 28th of November: and after that a flood of food, water and medical aid should flow into that region if the IDF expects the civilians to then flee another region. 

 

I think if Israel isn't finished by then they won't have much international support 

 

6 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

OH, and I had a good long look at the TIKTOKer Super19 posted a video from: he is 100% a Hamas propagandist. There is not one trustworthy post on that account. 

 

Yea, this is the instant outrage bullshit that seems to be driving so much of the discussion 

[moosehead]

10 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

What about the Palestinian people in the west bank Alf  ?

When are they going to be free ? 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/france-calls-west-bank-israeli-settler-violence-policy-terror-2023-11-16/

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/17/chkus-blinken-urges-israel-to-stop-settler-violence-in-west-bank

 

 

How would you like hundreds of thousands of people illegally stealing Canadian land ?

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

 

 

Face it brother, the Palestinian people have never been free, and it doesn't look like they ever will be. 

 

Israels oppressive government tactic is to divide Palestinian areas away from each other.  Deny them rights and freedom. Slowly take over and settle Palestinian lands and never allow to them to return.

 

Genocide.  

[Taxi]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

While I can not know the origin of this video, and I don't want to take the time to geolocate it. I want to point out three things that instantly make me leery of it as an authentic IDF member: the mosque has lit up windows above, and apparently a wide open door that he tosses the flashbang into, but there is zero light in that doorway. His pants and boots do not appear to be issued IDF kit, nor his shoulder flash of what seems to be an SS style skull. His gait and mannerisms do not seem as those of a trained IDF member. Lastly, the staging of the video itself; the camera is being held up around face level by another person. It isn't a body cam, it is a cell phone. 

To me the initial viewing of this video, moments ago, raised a lot of flags about it being an authentic one of an IDF soldier. It may be, but I would want to track it back to the phone that recorded it and who's phone that is. The Authorities can and likely will do that. Not to mention the face of the 'soldier' is fairly well revealed, so tracking the video to its device and therefore the device holder and then contact chaining that data to reveal the person being filmed and ultimately interviewing that person will tell us a whole lot. My suspicion is that militants got hold of an IDF helmet and worked to stage this propaganda video. Primarily based on what I have just said AND the fact that this video only serves Hamas and their allies, it in no way serves Israel or the IDF. If it is real, I expect this guy to face rather stiff penalties internally. 

 

The skull patch especially is strange.

 

The IDF, like most militaries, issues at least two sets of uniforms:

 

1. The dress uniform, where the left shoulder would be reserved for insignia showing rank, division, role, etc...There is definitely no skull patch option. The uniform also doesn't have a patch. It has a longer shoulder tag, which extends onto the top of the shoulder.

2. The field uniform. The IDF soldiers generally do not wear patches, and I doubt any individual soldiers would be permitted to modify their uniforms to allow patches.

 

The construction of the uniform seems way off too. The guy in the video has an extra piece of fabric over his shoulder that the patch is placed upon. IDF soldiers do not have that. He also has a pocket on the back of his leg. Although the video is dark, the colors of the uniform see way off.

 

It looks like a costume to me.

[Bob Long]

@Optimist Prime I'm wondering if you can help me understand Jabalia a bit - it's called a 'refugee camp' but is full of 5 story cement buildings. Is this just what the area is still called historically?

[Taxi]

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

@Optimist Prime I'm wondering if you can help me understand Jabalia a bit - it's called a 'refugee camp' but is full of 5 story cement buildings. Is this just what the area is still called historically?

 

The "refugee camps" have been established dwellings for many decades. The UN made up a definition for refugee that only applies to Palestinians:

 

Quote

This requires first understanding the legal facts. UNRWA was founded in 1949 through U.N. General Assembly Resolution 302 at the conclusion of the Arab-Israeli conflict of 1948, aiming for “the alleviation of the conditions of starvation and distress among the Palestine refugees” from that conflict. The agency defines Palestinian refugees as “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict.”

In 1965, UNRWA changed the eligibility requirements to be a Palestinian refugee to include third-generation descendants, and in 1982, it extended it again, to include all descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, regardless of whether they had been granted citizenship elsewhere. This classification process is inconsistent with how all other refugees in the world are classified, including the definition used by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) and the laws concerning refugees in the United States.

Under Article I(c)(3) of the 1951 U.N. Convention and Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees, a person is no longer a refugee if, for example, he or she has “acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality.” UNRWA’s definition of a Palestinian refugee, which is not anchored in treaty, includes no such provision.

 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/08/17/unrwa-has-changed-the-definition-of-refugee/

 

Under normal circumstances a person who settles somewhere else is no long considered a "refugee". In the special case of Palestinians, you only had to reside in the British Mandate of Palestine for two years  to be a refugee. That refugee status never goes away. Also, all of your descendants are refugees. It is the only refugee status that is inherited. You could be 1/32nd Palestinian and born to a wealthy family in North America, with full North American citizenship and land ownership, and still considered a refugee. You could even be adopted by someone who was 1/32nd Palestinian and be considered a refugee.

 

On top of that the surrounding Arab countries stripped anyone with Palestinian citizenship of their own citizenship or any land rights they may have had, in order to ensure they remained refugees. If you look, for example, at Yasser Arafat's father, he had Egyptian citizenship and owned land in Egypt. The Egyptian government took that away and declared him a Palestinian refugee. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Taxi

[Taxi]

58 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

 

 

OH, and I had a good long look at the TIKTOKer Super19 posted a video from: he is 100% a Hamas propagandist. There is not one trustworthy post on that account. 

 

The guy si reporting on top Hamas officials being killed in the last day:

 

 

[4petesake]

6 hours ago, Bob Long said:

@Optimist Prime I'm wondering if you can help me understand Jabalia a bit - it's called a 'refugee camp' but is full of 5 story cement buildings. Is this just what the area is still called historically?

 

A bit of a read but I found this a very informative summary of Jabalia.

JABALIA & THE INTIFADA: TRANSFORMING PRECARIOUSNESS INTO STRENGTH IN GAZA’S REFUGEE CAMPS

 

https://thefunambulist.net/magazine/16-proletarian-fortresses/35382-2

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by 4petesake
Instructions from @optimistprime

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

@Optimist Prime I'm wondering if you can help me understand Jabalia a bit - it's called a 'refugee camp' but is full of 5 story cement buildings. Is this just what the area is still called historically?

Most of Gaza is built up area, multi story buildings. We are used to seeing fields of white tents as refugee camps so it is a juxtaposition. These "refugees'' have lived in and improved their 'camps' for generations now, some since 1967, which is ...quick math in my head... 33 and 23... 55 years ago. My brother is roughly the same age as the 5 and six story apartment complexes that make up the 'refugee camp' and he is about to retire from policing in Ontario. the vast majority of people who built them and first lived in them have passed away and their kids kids now occupy them with their kids. 

Seeing as the people of GAZA generally demand that Israel be removed from the earth and their great grandpas apartments all over Israel be given to them, they still refer to these multi generational flats as a refugee camp. 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

While I can not know the origin of this video, and I don't want to take the time to geolocate it. I want to point out three things that instantly make me leery of it as an authentic IDF member: the mosque has lit up windows above, and apparently a wide open door that he tosses the flashbang into, but there is zero light in that doorway. His pants and boots do not appear to be issued IDF kit, nor his shoulder flash of what seems to be an SS style skull. His gait and mannerisms do not seem as those of a trained IDF member. Lastly, the staging of the video itself; the camera is being held up around face level by another person. It isn't a body cam, it is a cell phone. 

To me the initial viewing of this video, moments ago, raised a lot of flags about it being an authentic one of an IDF soldier. It may be, but I would want to track it back to the phone that recorded it and who's phone that is. The Authorities can and likely will do that. Not to mention the face of the 'soldier' is fairly well revealed, so tracking the video to its device and therefore the device holder and then contact chaining that data to reveal the person being filmed and ultimately interviewing that person will tell us a whole lot. My suspicion is that militants got hold of an IDF helmet and worked to stage this propaganda video. Primarily based on what I have just said AND the fact that this video only serves Hamas and their allies, it in no way serves Israel or the IDF. If it is real, I expect this guy to face rather stiff penalties internally. 

Good points. I wish you put the same critical analysis to the videos the IDF officially released in regards to Shifa Hospital and that whole saga. I'm not questioning Hamas tunnel systems, I do however question the legitimacy of the claims that Shifa was a main command centre for Hamas and thus Israel's reason to target it. 

 

Hamas released a statement yesterday. I think the point they made of having the international community there to verify or falsify the claims was bold and much needed. We know that Israel is controlling virtually all the mainstream media narrative coming out of Gaza, the BBC has revealed that. Israel decides who gets to report, where and when they are to report. But all in all, there needs to be independent sources in Gaza to document what's happening, there is a lack of journalism there right now and trust for either side. 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

30 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

 

A bit of a read but I found this a very informative summary of Jabalia.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

JABALIA & THE INTIFADA: TRANSFORMING PRECARIOUSNESS INTO STRENGTH IN GAZA’S REFUGEE CAMPS

/app/uploads/fly-images/1035478/Shanti-Ahmed-48x48-c.jpg

Contributors: Ahmed Al Shanti.

Published March 9, 2018

I grew up listening to my grandfather’s stories about resistance in Palestine. He, Abu Naser, was the chief military of Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). He trained Laila Khalid, along with her group that hijacked two American and Israeli airplanes in 1969 and 1970, who had hoped to release Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails. He also led many operations against the Israeli army, notably the 1968 battle of Al Karama (first Arab military victory over Israel). Despite spending years fighting from neighboring countries, he always believed that freedom for Palestine would ultimately have to come from within. I remember him always saying: “strength lays in weakness.” This unflagging believe in a nation’s ability to act even during the toughest times is worth contemplating now, especially after the weak and ineffective Palestinian response to Trump’s late decision to move the United States embassy to Jerusalem. “The toughest fighter,” he once told me, “is either idealist or has nothing to lose. We are both.” He retired from the political scene after the Lebanese war in late 1976, thinking that the Palestinian people themselves should simply take the lead.

/app/uploads/fly-images/1035473/Al-Shanti-Funambulist-3-668x455.jpg Beach and Jabalia refugee camps, and Israeli checkpoint during the First Intifada (1987-1993). / M. Nasr for UNRWA (FAMSI).

In 1987, Gaza and the West Bank did just that. They decided to shift their struggle for human rights, equality and liberation inwards. Jabalia refugee camp, in Gaza, was notoriously the birth place of the Intifada. Palestinians hesitated to rise up, and didn’t even know how to do it. But people who were living in devastating conditions found an effective and simple way, through the simplest and oldest weapon: stones. Balata refugee camp was the first in the West Bank to join the Intifada started in Gaza, which ultimately led to the 1993 Oslo Accord, and thus the creation of the Palestinian Authority (PA). The refugee camps still have an important role in the conflict. Their substantial and reoccurring participation in any up-raise is attributed to the fact that they have more at stake — having lost their land and bearing the largest burden of oppression, they have the most to gain by active struggle. The relatively better economic situation faced by some of the non-refugees might be just enough comfort for them to keep their peace. Despite war and occupation, a bourgeois class — some of the original residents of Gaza city, who did not lose property in 1948 — still exist in Gaza and remains less affected by the occupation. In fact, they still own their businesses and have a higher life standard than the refugees, who end up working for them. This class is believed to prefer stability to protect their interests, as they have more to lose.

/app/uploads/fly-images/1035472/Al-Shanti-Funambulist-2-668x452.jpg Beach and Jabalia refugee camps, and Israeli checkpoint during the First Intifada (1987-1993). / M. Nasr for UNRWA (FAMSI).

The difficult economic situation in Palestine pushed the residents to pursue further education in the hope of having a higher life standard. Thus, the second generation to live in those camps became doctors and engineers, and cooperatively helped enhancing the infrastructure of the camps, turning them into functional cities. With a young power drive — 40% of the refugee camps population is under 15 years old (Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, 2015) — the communities of these camps are considered more active and dynamic in terms of human power. Such a society is also more eager to resist the Israeli occupation and the strip of human rights by engaging in risker actions. The Israeli government was aware of the potential threat posed by the camps, and decided to siege them in 1974, surrounding them with walls and barbed wire in order to contain their revolutionary potential. In addition, Gaza strip as a whole is walled by a 60-kilometer-long border barrier that Israel built in 1994. Israel has been controlling the airspace, land borders, and territorial waters of Gaza until today. The result of these blockage policies (movement restriction, expansion restrictions, sieging the camp) pushed Palestinians to make extreme choices (voting in majority for Hamas) in their 2005 parliament elections. Hamas considers Gaza’s refugee camps as their stronghold (Jabalia in particular); they not only provide them with material support, but also supply the resistance movement with many front-line leaders.

/app/uploads/fly-images/1035474/Al-Shanti-Funambulist-4-668x450.jpg Beach and Jabalia refugee camps, and Israeli checkpoint during the First Intifada (1987-1993). / M.Nasr for UNRWA (FAMSI).

The natural increase in the number of refugees overtime also led to an increase in clashes, strikes, and demands for their civil rights. The most problematic part of negotiation talks is always the right of return. The right of return is a demand for the Palestinians refugees who were expelled from their lands and villages by the newly created state of Israel in 1948. The refugees stand strongly behind this demand, making it an act of political suicide for any Palestinian government leader to go against it. The refugee camps are also where Palestinian leaders prefer to turn when their chips are down. When the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas was out of options regarding Trump’s plan to relocate the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, he reached to the pulse of the street led by those camps. He asked them to re-active popular peaceful resistance against the occupation. The refugee camps always find a way to bail out any Palestinian leadership.

 

The Role of the Environment in Shaping Jabalia Refugee Camp ///

The camp started with 35,000 refugees in 1948, and has expanded to house roughly 120,000 today. Refugees’ families are mostly from Jaffa and villages around the Gaza Strip. While it started with tents, it developed into “SHINKO houses” (made out of aluminum), and then into concrete buildings in the late 1970s. The camp is located north of Gaza strip, between the cities of Jabalia and Beit Lahia. Its border used to be in the direct vicinity of two Israeli settlements in the northeast corner of the Strip, before the Israeli government’s 2005 dismantled all the settlements in Gaza. The main features of the camp are its narrow streets that sometimes are only wide enough to fit one person, its tightly packed buildings, and its rudimentary open sewers, which is one of the biggest issues in the camp — the residents asked repeatedly and unsuccessfully the occupying power to improve these dire living conditions.

Refugee camps are considered as the most coherent social community in Palestine. For instance, funerals gather large numbers of mourners, often lasting for multiple days. This social coherence also leads to successful strikes and actions of civil disobedience, which the residents of these camps are typically committed to. From both sociological and spatial perspectives, refugee camps have their own unique art de vivre. Jabalia camp society is shaped by many elements, the most important of all being the physical environment. The small streets imply tighter, warmer social relations. The closely packed buildings mean coexistence and interdependence. And the tightly controlled borders imply a general apprehension towards the outside and frustration. Also due to the limited space — the camp takes up only 1.4 square kilometers — the expansion of the population has been vertical rather than horizontal. When, for example, people marry and start having children, they simply build a new floor on top of the home of one of the spouse’s parents to accommodate them, when possible. Multiple generations of families end up living together in one building, which results in a mentality of “family first.” All of these factors play an important role in the function of the community. Residents are more idealistic, meaning they don’t believe in promises (like Oslo Accord) and they don’t acknowledge the occupation. They are willing to take risks, because there is not much to lose and the boundaries are suffocating them. However, they know how to use these conditions to their advantage.

The first Jabalia camp’s notable struggle against the occupation occurred right after the 1956 Israeli invasion of Gaza during the Suez Crisis. Israel took over the Gaza Strip and built a military base right at the heart of the Jabalia camp. The resistance started by peaceful marches against the occupation. The Israeli government had prohibited use of the Palestinian flag and singing the national anthem, but the residents of the camp held nothing back; they chanted anti-Israeli slogans and waved their Palestinian flags, while the military hopelessly attempted to chase them through the look-alike streets and narrow passages. In the early 1970s, taking note of how the residents used the camp’s urban arrangement to their advantage, the Israeli army started to evacuate certain houses and demolish them, in order to make space for bigger streets and to detach buildings from one another. But residents rioted against this practice, forcing the Israeli government to back down. In the early 1980s, however, it introduced a voluntary relocation plan: if residents of the Jabalia camp would give up their house or land, they would be compensated with a small payment and a parcel of land in Beit Lahia. The plan was partially successful, and some families decided to leave in order to escape the situation.

The camps used tactical moves against the occupation forces on a both popular and military level. Typically, Ramallah’s “Central Square” and Gaza City’s Unknown Soldier’s Square were the favorite places for launching movements against the occupation. However, those protests, usually led by public figures, never succeeded in attracting a vast part of the population. How did the poor residents of the refugee camp manage to succeed starting the Intifada? The Intifada started as a reaction to the killing of four Palestinian workers by an Israeli truck driver in Erez checkpoint. The workers were from Jabalia. The wife of one of the workers recounts: “At first they told me he only had a leg injury. But when I saw people gathering in front of our home, I knew he died” (felesteen.ps, 2010). This demonstrates how quickly the Jabalia refugee camp both communicates about and reacts to acts of Israeli aggression. The narrow streets and closely packed buildings allowed for news to spread quickly, in spite of the lack of telecommunication infrastructure in the camp at the time. Within minutes, the residents managed to organize a spontaneous gathering of as many as 4,000 people, which testifies to the strength of the community.

 

The Camp’s Geography Turned into a Weapon ///

/app/uploads/fly-images/1035471/Al-Shanti-Funambulist-1-668x483.jpg Beach and Jabalia refugee camps, and Israeli checkpoint during the First Intifada (1987-1993). / Photographs by G. Nehmeh for UNRWA (FAMSI).

The residents made the decision to start a battle, but how were they to do it? Residents developed many techniques to use the urban environment to their advantage. As mentioned above, there was an Israeli military base in the center of the camp, which became the main target of the outraged mob. Residents threw stones, molotov cocktails, and empty bottles. The Israelis had to learn the hard way not to chase them through the tiny streets — children would lure Israeli soldiers into tight quarters (the soldiers had been ordered by Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin to literally break the hands of anyone who threw stones) and then once the soldiers were trapped, people on the tops of the surrounding buildings would assail them with stones and garbage. Another urban feature the residents adapted to their advantage, was the open sewers. They would fill bags with sewage waste and then throw them at the soldiers. The Israeli soldiers had a hard time fighting back. Where individual soldiers failed to chase the residents, so did their military vehicles, as they could not access the narrow streets.

Today, refugee camps are still the safest hiding place for many Palestinian fugitives. The geographical and urban conditions (connected houses, narrow streets and random planning) create ideal hiding spots that are not integrated into any municipal or military plans. The above-mentioned cohesiveness of the community leads to mutual cooperation between the society and the fugitives. There was also a common understanding between residents to never fire bullets inside the camp, as the Israeli forces would respond aggressively with artillery, targeting densely populated areas. Thus, the political parties’ militants, would retreat from the camp during war times to avoid high causalities, or they could hide there, but only if they were not armed. This understanding challenged the Israeli mentality and took away any excuses for targeting the camp directly, under the excuse of present militants. Due to this peaceful struggle against the aggressive Israeli military, the camps gained the sympathy and support of the world.

/app/uploads/fly-images/1035475/Al-Shanti-Funambulist-5-668x412.jpg Jabalia refugee camp in 2017 and 2018. / Suhair Karam for IRIN (right).

Because of the poor quality of the buildings in the camps, residents prefer to seek shelter in more solid structures like those constructed by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in charge of all Palestinian refugee camps. The camp’s extreme density, and the poor quality of its buildings, means that any bombardment by the Israeli military cause damage to much more than its initial targets. The bombing of one structure can affect at least four or five other neighboring buildings. Because of this, residents tend to evacuate their homes during war times. During the 2014 war on Gaza they sought out UNRWA schools and clinics to take shelter in. Tragically, despite the Israeli army knowledge of civilians taking shelter at UNRWA establishments, the establishments were targeted. This hiding tactic is no longer safe, and residents have to resort to other options.

In both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, refugee camps have managed to create a certain amount of sovereignty for themselves. For example, in 2015, when the Jabalia camp rose up against the Fatah-Hamas conflict, many policemen inside the camp joined in, as they felt a higher sense of loyalty towards their fellow residents than for the government. In general, camp leaders (who are often affiliated with the PA or Hamas) found that their formed community skirts the PA authority. This implied a looser grip on the camp by the government, leaving the fate of the state in the hands of the camps. The dynamic of the refugee camps as of cultural and environment dimensions resulted in a separation of identity, between the state and the camp. The PA still considers camps solely as camps, forgetting that the camps are cities now and that the original exodus happened 70 years ago. For example, the houses of the camps are not registered officially as real estate. These unregistered houses and the narrow streets will always emphasize the “everlasting temporary” situation that Palestinian refugees have to live with.

Attempts to Change the Situation ///

Since 2006, when Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, a different strategy was implemented to restore the camps and gain their trust. Hamas knew that the Jabalia refugee camp, for example, is unique and should be dealt with delicately. On January 18, 2018, a spontaneous protest took place in the Jabalia refugee camp against the extremely dire living conditions. Yet Hamas, unlike other protests they crashed, allowed and even participated in the revolt. The Jabalia refugee camp is where many Hamas leaders grew up, and they tend to side with the people of the camp in contentious political matters. Subsequently, infrastructure of the camps has improved, the Israeli government has been prevented from carving out more wide streets, permits for higher buildings have been issued, and scattered shops have been re-organized into specific proper locations. In my opinion, these measures were not only intended to improve the daily life of the residents, but also to change the mentality and spirit of the camps. This is why the “Souk Street” of the Jabalia refugee camp is now full of new businesses and small shopping centers. Many of these new shops are owned by bourgeois Gazawi who have been encouraged by Hamas to invest in the camp. Jabalia camp is always on edge, it only needs the slightest reason to revolt. With these new shops, new streets, and new clinics, Hamas and UNRWA hope to transform the refugee mentality into something more urban, or “city-wise.” Without a doubt, the urban fabric of the camps plays the biggest role in forming their communities. As many parties (UNRWA, the PA, Hamas, the Israeli government) understand, the refugees can be changed through changing their urban environment. Will they succeed? And to what extent? Only the future will tell.

 

 

 

 

I wont hide your post as it is in a 'spoiler' at least, but the admins have asked that the mods enforce strictly a policy of linking to a larger work rather than copying and pasting it here at length. I have been Lenient in allowing this from @moosehead as well, so I will leave this one, but for both of you now, going forward, please provide a link and a sentence from the original work you are referring to, and from now on lets keep a minimum of copying and pasting other peoples work on the internet. Firstly we want to credit the authors wherever possible, and secondly we don't want to have a post that would be a full sheet of printout if we sent it to the printer. A link with the most pertinent sentence or two accomplishes both these goals. 

Thank you everyone.
 

@4petesake if you would please edit out the long narrative of copy paste and replace it with a key sentence and a link to the text, that would be perfect. 

[Optimist Prime]

7 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Good points. I wish you put the same critical analysis to the videos the IDF....

 

[Super19]

Just now, Optimist Prime said:

I did not see enough proof from the IDF to justify what otherwise would be a literal war crime. This is a huge deal and deserves your same scrutiny you had over that tiktok/X video from the West Bank. Actually it deserves more scrutiny.

[Optimist Prime]

39 minutes ago, Super19 said:

I did not see enough proof from the IDF to justify what otherwise would be a literal war crime. This is a huge deal and deserves your same scrutiny you had over that tiktok/X video from the West Bank. Actually it deserves more scrutiny.

Feel free to find a consultant to put his skills to work to prove what you wish was true.  I only typed that out in under a minute dude, it didn't take my skillset to realize you were forwarding propaganda. 

 

Generally on tunnels under the hospitals: we have seen absolute proof of a weapons and IED manufacturing station set up in a UN school right next door to the classroom that was repurposed as a teaching facility for said weapons and bomb making: You and others here didn't even acknowledge that let alone speak to its truth. Tunnels and entrances are things that take time and equipment to uncover. The US and Israel and some other allies have spoken of INTEL that proves the tunnels are there. It isn't my place to suppose what that intel is but remember that we have trillions of dollars of equipment in orbit around the globe and the the extremely high tech devices on those satellites can read, as i did once in a test, weather a quarter is heads or tails side up in my mother in laws driveway. They can (and frankly should be used to disprove bigfoot theories) find a heat signature buried ten feet deep in the woods in a child abduction case in the Ozarks, and G.P.R. is a thing. 

 

Your proofs will be delivered by the people with access to all this equipment at the appropriate time, likely long after the shooting has stopped and (de)construction workers can access the site and uncover the tunnels. We know they are there, Hamas has bragged about them in the past, and we have at least ONE hostage released who described walking for miles in a web of tunnels under Gaza City. Once Al Shifa is pacified my guess is fresh concrete work and fresh tile work will be removed and what you are seeking will be widely available. Hamas has had 41 days to remove their fingerprints from the area, and even then did a sloppy job of it. Knowing Israel was pinching in directly to Al Shifa as one of its first moves inside the Gaza perimeter, if I was Hamas I would have moved every scrap out of the hospital and filled in every tunnel within 30 meters of it. That will take time to uncover now. 

 

edit: almost forgot, we even have a corpse of an elderly Israeli hostage found within a few feet of Al Shifa, as though it was taken out of a tunnel and dumped quickly by Hamas militants who didn't want to be exposed for more than a moment. Do you think she was held in a tunnel or a wood shed adjacent to the hospital? this last bit is pure speculation on my part: but there was a room shown in an israeli video form inside Al SHifa hospital where ropes around a chairs legs and a womans robe were left behind as well as a large knife. I can't prove it, so it is pure speculation but I wonder if the ladies corpse would match any forensic data picked out of that room. Would that convince you, or would you decide it is rubbish because an Israeli did the testing?

 

I am not sure why you are so eager for Hamas to be right, but you are basically quoting terrorists as labelled by our government, our allies government and by their own words. I wouldn't do that if it was me. Shrug. 

[Bob Long]

@Optimist Prime @Taxi @4petesake thanks, there's a lot to go through there but first read its pretty interesting. It's fascinating how the definitions that are used in this conflict. 

31 minutes ago, Super19 said:

I did not see enough proof from the IDF to justify what otherwise would be a literal war crime. This is a huge deal and deserves your same scrutiny you had over that tiktok/X video from the West Bank. Actually it deserves more scrutiny.

 

we can't prosecute war crimes on twitter. Not sure what any of this really amounts to. 

[Super19]

29 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Feel free to find a consultant to put his skills to work to prove what you wish was true.  I only typed that out in under a minute dude, it didn't take my skillset to realize you were forwarding propaganda. 

 

Generally on tunnels under the hospitals: we have seen absolute proof of a weapons and IED manufacturing station set up in a UN school right next door to the classroom that was repurposed as a teaching facility for said weapons and bomb making: You and others here didn't even acknowledge that let alone speak to its truth. Tunnels and entrances are things that take time and equipment to uncover. The US and Israel and some other allies have spoken of INTEL that proves the tunnels are there. It isn't my place to suppose what that intel is but remember that we have trillions of dollars of equipment in orbit around the globe and the the extremely high tech devices on those satellites can read, as i did once in a test, weather a quarter is heads or tails side up in my mother in laws driveway. They can (and frankly should be used to disprove bigfoot theories) find a heat signature buried ten feet deep in the woods in a child abduction case in the Ozarks, and G.P.R. is a thing. 

 

Your proofs will be delivered by the people with access to all this equipment at the appropriate time, likely long after the shooting has stopped and (de)construction workers can access the site and uncover the tunnels. We know they are there, Hamas has bragged about them in the past, and we have at least ONE hostage released who described walking for miles in a web of tunnels under Gaza City. Once Al Shifa is pacified my guess is fresh concrete work and fresh tile work will be removed and what you are seeking will be widely available. Hamas has had 41 days to remove their fingerprints from the area, and even then did a sloppy job of it. Knowing Israel was pinching in directly to Al Shifa as one of its first moves inside the Gaza perimeter, if I was Hamas I would have moved every scrap out of the hospital and filled in every tunnel within 30 meters of it. That will take time to uncover now. 

 

I am not sure why you are so eager for Hamas to be right, but you are basically quoting terrorists as labelled by our government, our allies government and by their own words. I wouldn't do that if it was me. Shrug. 

I'm asking why you did not find the need to analyze the IDF video? I'm assuming it's because you entirely trust the source - IDF. What happened when we entirely trusted our and our allies govt regarding weapons of mass destruction?

 

I'm not contesting that there are indeed Hamas tunnels under Gaza btw.

 

Why haven't the hundreds of staff personnel or patients collectively told us of Hamas operations at the hospital? 

 

Do you think targeting of Gaza hospitals is justified? Do you believe that collective punishment is justified?

 

I'm not "eager for Hamas to be right" so please don't put those words in my mouth. 

[RomanPer]

3 hours ago, moosehead said:

'We have a high amount of evidence, thus we request an arrest warrant against Netanyahu,' Gilles Devers tells Anadolu

 

PARIS

 

A French lawyer considered a voice of Palestinian victims at the International Criminal Court has denounced the ongoing Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip.

Gilles Devers told Anadolu that he filed a complaint at the tribunal based in The Hague against Israel's air strikes in Gaza, accusing the country of "genocide."

 

He said war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide were being handled separately at the ICC, adding that the sufferings of the Palestinians were different than those of Rohingya Muslims

 

According to him, the situation in Gaza is also worse than what happened in Srebrenica in 1995, recalling that 8,600 people were killed there during what was considered a genocide.

 

"We have a high amount of evidence, thus we request an arrest warrant against (Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin) Netanyahu," Devers said. "We found shocking images of Israeli soldiers acting out of revenge, that could be considered inhumane."

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/palestinian-victims-voice-at-icc-french-lawyer-denounces-israeli-genocide-in-gaza/3055588

Lol

[Super19]

 

[Super19]