Hamas attacking Israel

[24K]

4 minutes ago, Darius said:

 

Yes, its basically in their "constitution"

 

https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

 

 

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

 

How do you negotiate with this type of entity? 
 

 

You have to negotiate with the Palestinian gonvernemnt in West Bank. If a two state solution or a power sharing agreement is reached there, support for Hamas or any other extremist organization there will subside as they would see that diplomacy had worked rather than it not working.

 

The current Palestinian president tried harder than any of his predecessor to negotiate a solution have so far failed to move the needle. Not only that, occupation of West Bank have gotten worse so it kind of send the opposite message of diplomacy working. 

[Darius]

3 minutes ago, 24K said:

You have to negotiate with the Palestinian gonvernemnt in West Bank. If a two state solution or a power sharing agreement is reached there, support for Hamas or any other extremist organization there will subside as they would see that diplomacy had worked rather than it not working.

 

The current Palestinian president tried harder than any of his predecessor to negotiate a solution have so far failed to move the needle. Not only that, occupation of West Bank have gotten worse so it kind of send the opposite message of diplomacy working. 

I agree there has to be some sort of two state solution.

[the destroyer of worlds]

Breakdown of examples of tweets and videos that are false.  Tweets and videos that some had millions of views.

 

 

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, UnkNuk said:

 

The problem I have with this historical argument is:  according to the Bible, the Israelites invaded the land we call Israel and drove out the Canaanites, the Amorites, the Girgashites, the Hittites, the Hivites, the Jebusites and the Perizzites.

 

If this historical argument is to be made, maybe the land should be given back to the descendants of the Canaanites, Amorites etc.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Nations_(Bible)#:~:text=God instructed the Israelites to,was discussed in later commentary.

 

Maybe, the only problem - there are no descendants of these people alive today.

[Playoff Beered]

More disinformation...

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Coconuts]

I'm not justifying the attacks on Israeli civilians, but maybe if Israel wasn't practicing modern day apartheid there wouldn't be pushback in the form of attacks and resistance. 

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I'm not justifying the attacks on Israeli civilians, but maybe if Israel wasn't practicing modern day apartheid there wouldn't be pushback in the form of attacks and resistance. 

 

There's pushback and resistance and then there is the beheading of babies.  Nothing can justify that.  Nothing...

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

There's pushback and resistance and then there is the beheading of babies.  Nothing can justify that.  Nothing...

 

Hamas are terrorists, certainly. But Israel's practicing of apartheid over the past however many decades only exacerbates the willingness of individuals to join up. 

 

At the end of the day both Israeli and Palestinian civilians are the ones who will pay the price. If anything it'll likely result in more Palestinian lives being lost than Israeli though. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Coconuts

[moosehead]

2 hours ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

Not my words but interesting.....

 

UN proposed Jewish state with 25% land going to Israel, 75% going to Palestine. Jews accepted, Arabs rejected.

When Israel was created, Palestine opposed and declared war on Israel (along with other Arab nations) and lost the war.

Palestine again lost the war in 1967 and Israel offered land for peace deal. You don't like the deal?

So what, no other country has won a war and conceded land back to its enemies that are surrounding them. Canada did not do that. What makes you feel that Israel has to play by different rules than any other nation on earth?

Since the beginning Palestine and Hamas have refused to acknowledge the right for Israel to exist and their own charter calls for the death of all Jews

 

. Listen, it's fine to say that Palestine has the right to oppose the existence of Israel but they lost the war and that's that. Every other country in the world drew border lines around outcomes of war.

 

Why on earth is it not ok for Israel to do the same? Why are you ok with the border lines of Canada then and having natives live in crappy reservations?

 

You do realize that Israel has siezed Palestinian lands right ?  Then build more Israel housing on these seized lands....  You do realize this right ?

[King Heffy]

9 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

Lots of disinformation incoming...

 

 

Obviously false given Russia's cooperation with Iran.  This is merely a confession of what Russia is doing.

[moosehead]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Excellent points.  The main point that some people are not understanding is that Hamas does not want peace.  They want the destruction of the state of Israel and to set up a world caliphate over the rule of all other civilizations.  This was confirmed by the sone of one of the founders of Hamas.  How do you negotiate with someone like that?  The answer is you don't.  Hamas must be destroyed before we can even entertain any negotiations. 

 

I know some feel that the Palestinians consider Hamas their freedom fighters, but honestly if the Palestinians are okay with the beheading of babies all for their Jihad then they deserve whatever is coming to them...

 

You do realize that both the Israeli's and Hamas both are horrible in their targeting of children in this conflict.

You do realize this right ?  Are Palestinian lives deemed less important ?  What Hamas has just done is inexcusable. Terrorists.

This whole conflict is sickening.   A peaceful 2 state solution should have been set up 70 years ago.    This horrible conflict needed to be ended by some kind of  compromise by both sides. 

 

Both the Israeli Defense Forces and militant Palestinian groups have been accused of violating the rights of children and causing injury and death. According to B'tselem's calculations (2021), some 2,171 Palestinian children have been killed in the last two decades by Israeli military actions,^[2][3] and 139 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinian militants.^[3]

 

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict}

Edited October 10, 2023 by moosehead

[Playoff Beered]

15 minutes ago, moosehead said:

You do realize that both the Israeli's and Hamas both are horrible in their targeting of children in this conflict.

You do realize this right ?  Are Palestinian lives deemed less important ?  What Hamas has just done is inexcusable. Terrorists.

This whole conflict is sickening.   A peaceful 2 state solution should have been set up 70 years ago.    This horrible conflict needed to be ended by some kind of  compromise by both sides. 

 

Both the Israeli Defense Forces and militant Palestinian groups have been accused of violating the rights of children and causing injury and death. According to B'tselem's calculations (2021), some 2,171 Palestinian children have been killed in the last two decades by Israeli military actions,^[2][3] and 139 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinian militants.^[3]

 

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict}

 

Except that Hamas has targeted children specifically, the IDF has never specifically targeted children. Saying they are both violating the rights of children and causing injury and death is true but surely you see there's a difference there?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Darius]

Looks like other Nato countries are accompanying the American fleet:

 

 

[King Heffy]

Just now, Playoff Beered said:

 

Except that Hamas has targeted children specifically, the IDF has never specifically targeted children, you see the difference there?

Exactly.  There's a huge difference between collateral damage from a bomb and beheading babies.

[moosehead]

Just now, Playoff Beered said:

 

Except that Hamas has targeted children specifically, the IDF has never specifically targeted children, you see the difference there?

 

Hamas are terrorists.  Horrible in wiping out whole familes. disgusting.   Hopefully those responsible are held responsible.

Targetting woman and children is the most despicable thing a human can do. 

 

Israel just bombs residential buildings.......

 

Both sides are horrible in their targeting of innocent civiilains.    Both sides commit war crimes. 

[Elias Pettersson]

13 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

You do realize that both the Israeli's and Hamas both are horrible in their targeting of children in this conflict.

You do realize this right ?  Are Palestinian lives deemed less important ?  What Hamas has just done is inexcusable. Terrorists.

This whole conflict is sickening.   A peaceful 2 state solution should have been set up 70 years ago.    This horrible conflict needed to be ended by some kind of  compromise by both sides. 

 

Both the Israeli Defense Forces and militant Palestinian groups have been accused of violating the rights of children and causing injury and death. According to B'tselem's calculations (2021), some 2,171 Palestinian children have been killed in the last two decades by Israeli military actions,^[2][3] and 139 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinian militants.^[3]

 

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict}

 

They had one 75 years ago.  The Landlord of the property offered them 38% of the land they did not own, and they refused.  Then they went to war with Israel to get more than was offered.  They lost the war and consequently got even less land than was offered to them.  That's unfortunate but it happens in negotiations...

 

As for the targeting of children, wars always kill, and innocent people always die.  However, when you are trying to negotiate with terrorists who behead babies, then all bets are off.  Hamas must be destroyed.  If the people of Palestine can wake up and understand this then they may be able to save themselves.  If they side with the terrorists, then they will probably lose and die...

[Elias Pettersson]

22 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

You do realize that Israel has siezed Palestinian lands right ?  Then build more Israel housing on these seized lands....  You do realize this right ?

 

Land lost through war isn't seized, it is conquered...

[moosehead]

Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

 

They had one 75 years ago.  The Landlord of the property offered them 38% of the land they did not own, and they refused.  Then they went to war with Israel to get more than was offered.  They lost the war and consequently got even less land than was offered to them.  That's unfortunate but it happens in negotiations...

 

As for the targeting of children, wars always kill, and innocent people always die.  However, when you are trying to negotiate with terrorists who behead babies, then all bets are off.  Hamas must be destroyed.  If the people of Palestine can wake up and understand this then they may be able to save themselves.  If they side with the terrorists, then they will probably lose and die...

 

No doubt many more Palestinians and Israeli's will die.   Civilians probably mostly from both sides.

This conflict will continue on probably for longer than your life and mine.

 

Peaceful negotiation to a 2 state solution is the only way forward. 

[UnkNuk]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

No, when you invade a territory and you win the war then it's your land.  That's how it works.  Didn't the British conquer the land from the Ottoman Empire?  The Romans from Alexander the Great?  Is there even a country in the world that was given land for free without fighting for it?

 

So why did you bring up the point that the Jews were in the land 3000 years ago?

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

 

So why did you bring up the point that the Jews were in the land 3000 years ago?

 

 

 

Because some people have been saying that the Jews never owned the land and the Palestinians did.  The Jews were around long before the Palestinians.  In any event, the Landlord of the property was changed over many times and in 1948 the new Landlord offered the Palestinians a deal and they refused.  They fought to get more land and lost.  Case closed...

[Elias Pettersson]

[24K]

19 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

No doubt many more Palestinians and Israeli's will die.   Civilians probably mostly from both sides.

This conflict will continue on probably for longer than your life and mine.

 

Peaceful negotiation to a 2 state solution is the only way forward. 

Problem is 2 state solution ain't possible when one side weild a giant hammer in Israel and the other is a nail made of springs. 

 

The hammer will always want to pound into submission the nail but the nail will always pop up again and be a nuisance. 

 

The power dynamic between the 2 is not conducive for a 2 state solution. 

 

If we want this to have an actual 2 state solution than US need to pull unconditional support of Israel and recognize Palestine with the West Bank and Gaza (minus Hamas) as sovereign Palestinian land. That will somewhat equalize the power dynamic allowing for good faith negotiations. 

 

That ain't gonna happen as it is political suicide in the States. 

[RomanPer]

54 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

Hamas are terrorists, certainly. But Israel's practicing of apartheid over the past however many decades only exacerbates the willingness of individuals to join up. 

 

At the end of the day both Israeli and Palestinian civilians are the ones who will pay the price. If anything it'll likely result in more Palestinian lives being lost than Israeli though. 

 

Catch up on the definition of "apartheid"

[The Arrogant Worms]

Semantics and the blame game put aside I am more worried about what this could lead to.

 

Not for myself...I have lived a pretty good life but for my son and all you younger people.

[RomanPer]

32 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Because some people have been saying that the Jews never owned the land and the Palestinians did.  The Jews were around long before the Palestinians.  In any event, the Landlord of the property was changed over many times and in 1948 the new Landlord offered the Palestinians a deal and they refused.  They fought to get more land and lost.  Case closed...

 

Not only that - ancient Kingdom of Israel was the only independent state that ever existed in that area ever, until 1948.