Hamas attacking Israel

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[Super19]

19 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Every source quoting these numbers has the same source - Hamas. We’ve already been through it multiple times, but you keep on waving it in front of everyone as if something has changed.

 

in case you need help using Google - https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-announces-names-of-6-idf-soldiers-killed-in-gaza-bringing-group-op-death-toll-to-57/

The numbers reported from the Hamas controlled Ministry are likely less than what the actual deaths are:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/gaza-rising-death-toll-civilians/

 

"

President Biden cast doubt on Oct. 25 on the numbers from Gaza’s Health Ministry. Others in his administration have said more recently that the casualty figures could be greater than reported.

“It could be that they’re even higher than are being cited,” Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Barbara Leaf said in a congressional hearing last week.

“In these extraordinarily dense confines, it just stands to reason that there are very high casualties,” she said."

 

Thanks for the link. I'm assuming those aren't the most recent numbers due to the process IDF goes through first before reporting.

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Exactly! Hamas wants to kill all Jews snd IMHAO us too. They are evil. 

[Optimist Prime]

I read one report but on the net, so who knows if real or fake but it estimated 1000 dead hammas fighters in one particularly fierce battle north of the Center of Gaza City, forget the name of the district. It was cited as the fiercest battle at the time so far. For those looking for dead hammas numbers. One battle, but the largest of them, reportedly.

 

Oh and another snippet was talking about 300 dead Hamas fighters in another large battle, probably the 2nd largest to date. I think theyvare reporting about 20 to 30 skirmishes a day

[RomanPer]

30 minutes ago, Super19 said:

The numbers reported from the Hamas controlled Ministry are likely less than what the actual deaths are:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/gaza-rising-death-toll-civilians/

 

"

President Biden cast doubt on Oct. 25 on the numbers from Gaza’s Health Ministry. Others in his administration have said more recently that the casualty figures could be greater than reported.

“It could be that they’re even higher than are being cited,” Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Barbara Leaf said in a congressional hearing last week.

“In these extraordinarily dense confines, it just stands to reason that there are very high casualties,” she said."

 

Thanks for the link. I'm assuming those aren't the most recent numbers due to the process IDF goes through first before reporting.

 

Where does is say the number of kids casualties in Gaza?

[Super19]

3 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Where does is say the number of kids casualties in Gaza?

"More than 4,500 children have been killed since Oct. 7, surpassing the number of children killed in conflict zones around the world each year since 2019, according to Save the Children."

 

From the same Washington Post link.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Super19

[RomanPer]

6 minutes ago, Super19 said:

"More than 4,500 children have been killed since Oct. 7, surpassing the number of children killed in conflict zones around the world each year since 2019, according to Save the Children."

 

From the same Washington Post link.

 

That whole article is based on “numbers provided by Gaza Health Ministry” aka Hamas.

[Super19]

12 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

That whole article is based on “numbers provided by Gaza Health Ministry” aka Hamas.

I dont think these agencies would report these numbers everyday without huge disclaimers *citing it as propaganda* from a source that their government deems as terrorists unless they were damn sure it was actually credible. As we went tbrough before, the Gaza Health Ministry has been verified to be accurate in previous conflicts.

 

Here is more info Taken from the same Washington Post link:

Where we get our data about the Israel-Gaza war

When we’re reporting on issues such as the death toll in the Israel-Gaza war, we use information provided from the Gaza Health Ministry (an agency of the Hamas-controlled government), the Israeli government, the United Nations, the World Health Organization, the U.S. State Department and other international agencies.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Super19

[Super19]

This Al-Jazeera interview with a Hamas fighter. In it he tells a story - it proves to a reason for the vicious cycle of how Hamas thrives on recruits. Young Palestenian gets affected by tragedies of war with Israel - grows up with vengeance in his blood - joins Hamas. In the rest of the video you can see parallels between Hamas and IDF in the sense that they both accuse eachother of the same things ie: "If they had their way they would completely get rid of us!"

 

How is this war any different than the previous 5 wars in just over the last decade (besides the scale)? How many young Palestenians that survive this war will grow up with vengeance in their blood and will want to join Hamas, after seeing all the atrocity they are seeing right now? If/when IDF can truly eliminate Hamas this time, there will likely be these young survivors who grow up with that very same vengeance. This vengeance seems likely (maybe not for all, but one too many for sure will blame the IDF/Israeli Govt.) and given the history of resistant Palestenians (how many of these guys are so ready to die or see war just to see what they want?), seems like a very likely outcome no matter if the IDF "eliminates" Hamas in this war - unless it leads to a free state of Palestine co-existing with the State of Israel and a true peace in the region. If that peace with these two states doesn't happen, I fear for the same to continue or I fear even worse things will happen...

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Super19
Edit

[Canuck Surfer]

14 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

This is a fascinating interview.  So, basically the Palestinian people do not want a peaceful resolution to the conflict and they do not want a two state solution.  What they want is "from the river to the sea".  Meaning they want a Palestinian state and no Jewish state.  This changes everything IMO, and is the reason there can never be a peaceful resolution to the conflict.  The Palestinians have rejected every peace offer.  The reason why is because they do not want peace, they want a Palestinian state with no Jewish state.  It's pretty apparent that this is true now.

 

Another thing she said was that the Palestinians need to stop calling themselves "refugees", which is true.  it's been 75 years, the people living in Gaza now are not the same people from 1948.  They are not refugees any longer.  

 

There is an absolute % of Arabic people that believe the ME / Middle East is theirs. Don't see that Mesopotamia was a thing 3000 years before the birth of Islam? The birth of Judaism, Christianity in-between. There was a time Arabic tribes kicked, most, competing cultures out. Now some are returning. Competition is not greeted with enthusiasm, multiculturalism. 'Its our land!'  That's why none has accepted a two state solution.

 

Happy to fight amongst each other, but tolerate no interference.  For all the (BS) talk about Genocide & Apartheid. No opposing culture should be alongside, in contest.

 

Almost no, and they all are Islamic controlled, countries in the ME have much of any tolerance for permanent minorities. Which makes rule by the sword more practical, a higher percentage compliant, placid? It is fine to have low wage workers come from Turkmenistan, or the Philippine's, Nigeria? Buying land, religious freedom not allowed; so these workers don't dent controlling influence. Minorities do not get a vote shortly after they arrive! It's servitude for ruling gangs. Investors who help their oil and developments. More advanced nations, say Saudi Arabia, have minorities or the UAE, Qatar? With higher education, big business. Their minorities still live in ignominy.

 

Then slowly but surely all these minorities disappear.  Israel goes, well, over the boundaries of legality in many regards.  

 

Yet only being heavy handed has kept most at bay. Kept Israeli's alive. 

 

 

Egypt, the Ottomans, the Kingdoms Jordan & Saudi have all lost control of 'Palestine'. Lebanon, Syria & defacto Persians have all tried to stake claim. All the other 'Stan's' have sent militia, to infiltrate, exert influence. Seek a peace of the action. Masked in some form of religious call?

 

They need an uninterrupted view to the West.

 

The Russians are also perky, pesky, snooping about. Need a port on the Mediterranean! Everybody wants that port, that Mosque. Israel will be held by military force for any foreseeable future.  

 

If oil stops becoming a thing; maybe for 500 years? 

[Elias Pettersson]

6 hours ago, Super19 said:

"More than 4,500 children have been killed since Oct. 7, surpassing the number of children killed in conflict zones around the world each year since 2019, according to Save the Children."

 

From the same Washington Post link.

 

How many of those children were killed by Hamas themselves?  How many were being used as suicide bombers?  How many were being used as human shields?

[Elias Pettersson]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

This Al-Jazeera interview with a Hamas fighter. In it he tells a story - it proves to a reason for the vicious cycle of how Hamas thrives on recruits. Young Palestenian gets affected by tragedies of war with Israel - grows up with vengeance in his blood - joins Hamas. In the rest of the video you can see parallels between Hamas and IDF in the sense that they both accuse eachother of the same things ie: "If they had their way they would completely get rid of us!"

 

How is this war any different than the previous 5 wars in just over the last decade (besides the scale)? How many young Palestenians that survive this war will grow up with vengeance in their blood and will want to join Hamas, after seeing all the atrocity they are seeing right now? If/when IDF can truly eliminate Hamas this time, there will likely be these young survivors who grow up with that very same vengeance. This vengeance seems likely (maybe not for all, but one too many for sure will blame the IDF/Israeli Govt.) and given the history of resistant Palestenians (how many of these guys are so ready to die or see war just to see what they want?), seems like a very likely outcome no matter if the IDF "eliminates" Hamas in this war - unless it leads to a free state of Palestine co-existing with the State of Israel and a true peace in the region. If that peace with these two states doesn't happen, I fear for the same to continue or I fear even worse things will happen...

 

 

 

 

The Palestinians aren't interested in a peace deal.  They have rejected them all, even a peace deal that gave them control of Gaza.  They don't want peace.  They only want "the river to the sea".  That's why Hamas is allowed to operate.

 

In terms of the children, it is a lost generation for them unfortunately.  At least this generation will be lost and maybe the next one too.  Perhaps in 30 years the new generation of children will grow up without having to listen to a terrorist group telling them what to do and how to think...

[Bob Long]

6 hours ago, Super19 said:

This Al-Jazeera interview with a Hamas fighter. In it he tells a story - it proves to a reason for the vicious cycle of how Hamas thrives on recruits. Young Palestenian gets affected by tragedies of war with Israel - grows up with vengeance in his blood - joins Hamas. In the rest of the video you can see parallels between Hamas and IDF in the sense that they both accuse eachother of the same things ie: "If they had their way they would completely get rid of us!"

 

How is this war any different than the previous 5 wars in just over the last decade (besides the scale)? How many young Palestenians that survive this war will grow up with vengeance in their blood and will want to join Hamas, after seeing all the atrocity they are seeing right now? If/when IDF can truly eliminate Hamas this time, there will likely be these young survivors who grow up with that very same vengeance. This vengeance seems likely (maybe not for all, but one too many for sure will blame the IDF/Israeli Govt.) and given the history of resistant Palestenians (how many of these guys are so ready to die or see war just to see what they want?), seems like a very likely outcome no matter if the IDF "eliminates" Hamas in this war - unless it leads to a free state of Palestine co-existing with the State of Israel and a true peace in the region. If that peace with these two states doesn't happen, I fear for the same to continue or I fear even worse things will happen...

 

 

 

 

Palestinians need their version of Nelson Mandela.

[Optimist Prime]

6 hours ago, Super19 said:

This Al-Jazeera interview with a Hamas fighter. In it he tells a story - it proves to a reason for the vicious cycle of how Hamas thrives on recruits. Young Palestenian gets affected by tragedies of war with Israel - grows up with vengeance in his blood - joins Hamas. In the rest of the video you can see parallels between Hamas and IDF in the sense that they both accuse eachother of the same things ie: "If they had their way they would completely get rid of us!"

 

How is this war any different than the previous 5 wars in just over the last decade (besides the scale)? How many young Palestenians that survive this war will grow up with vengeance in their blood and will want to join Hamas, after seeing all the atrocity they are seeing right now? If/when IDF can truly eliminate Hamas this time, there will likely be these young survivors who grow up with that very same vengeance. This vengeance seems likely (maybe not for all, but one too many for sure will blame the IDF/Israeli Govt.) and given the history of resistant Palestenians (how many of these guys are so ready to die or see war just to see what they want?), seems like a very likely outcome no matter if the IDF "eliminates" Hamas in this war - unless it leads to a free state of Palestine co-existing with the State of Israel and a true peace in the region. If that peace with these two states doesn't happen, I fear for the same to continue or I fear even worse things will happen...

 

 

 

You do understand these people are listed as a Terrorist Organization by Canada right? Why on earth would you continue to be their apologist?

[Super19]

36 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

You do understand these people are listed as a Terrorist Organization by Canada right? Why on earth would you continue to be their apologist?

I'm an apologist for Hamas because I don't fully support what and the way the IDF are conducting their war? Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

I'm simply reporting an Al-Jazeera story and a valid perspective that ties directly to what is going on right now. And showing how this fight against Hamas seems futile, and more innocent lives including children are being lost for what? Unless Nentanyahu plans to wipe out many, displace many, and keep the survivors for the next 30 years under a strict hand. (Which doesn't sound much like freedom to me).

 

And if you fully support the IDF and Nentanyahu rn, you may be supporting war crimes. An investigation at some point will be inevitable:

 

"South Africa has filed a referral to the International Criminal Court for an investigation into war crimes committed by Israel in Gaza.

“As South Africa we have accordingly, together with many other countries across the world, referred this whole Israeli government action to the International Criminal Court,”  South African President Cyril Ramaphosa said on Wednesday during a state visit to Qatar.

“We have put through a referral because we believe that war crimes are being committed there. And of course we do not condone the actions that were taken by Hamas earlier, but similarly we condemn the actions that are currently underway and believe that they warrant an investigation by the ICC,” he added."

https://www.tamilguardian.com/content/south-africa-refers-israel-icc-and-calls-arrest-warrant-be-issued-netanyahu

 

What's ironic is that the US and much of the West considered the ANC to be a terrorist organization.

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

I'm an apologist for Hamas because I don't fully support what and the way the IDF are conducting their war? Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

I'm simply reporting an Al-Jazeera story and a valid perspective that ties directly to what is going on right now. And showing how this fight against Hamas seems futile, and more innocent lives including children are being lost for what? Unless Nentanyahu plans to wipe out many, displace many, and keep the survivors for the next 30 years under a strict hand. (Which doesn't sound much like freedom to me).

 

And if you fully support the IDF and Nentanyahu rn, you may be supporting war crimes. An investigation at some point will be inevitable:

 

"South Africa has filed a referral to the International Criminal Court for an investigation into war crimes committed by Israel in Gaza.

“As South Africa we have accordingly, together with many other countries across the world, referred this whole Israeli government action to the International Criminal Court,”  South African President Cyril Ramaphosa said on Wednesday during a state visit to Qatar.

“We have put through a referral because we believe that war crimes are being committed there. And of course we do not condone the actions that were taken by Hamas earlier, but similarly we condemn the actions that are currently underway and believe that they warrant an investigation by the ICC,” he added."

https://www.tamilguardian.com/content/south-africa-refers-israel-icc-and-calls-arrest-warrant-be-issued-netanyahu

 

What's ironic is that the US and much of the West considered the ANC to be a terrorist organization.

 

Show me who in Hamas shares Mandela's world views?

 

 

[Super19]

3 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

How many of those children were killed by Hamas themselves?  How many were being used as suicide bombers?  How many were being used as human shields?

Likely not nearly as many that were killed from IDF bombs. IMO neither Hamas nor the IDF is free from wrong here (although people ITT have put zero accountability on the IDF and 100% on Hamas). There are already governments calling Israel out on these casualties&destruction and in time Nentanyahu and the IDF will likely be investigated for war crimes. 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

Likely not nearly as many that were killed from IDF bombs. IMO neither Hamas nor the IDF is free from wrong here (although people ITT have put zero accountability on the IDF and 100% on Hamas). There are already governments calling Israel out on these casualties&destruction and in time Nentanyahu and the IDF will likely be investigated for war crimes. 

 

So let's let the investigation happen. Continuing to quote Hamas just helps them.

[Super19]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Show me who in Hamas shares Mandela's world views?

 

 

My point was the ANC was literally labelled as a Terrorist Organization by the US and much of the West.

 

And IDK, I'm not actively trying to find parallels between Hamas and Mandela. If I come across anything I'll let you know.

 

But from face value the guy in the video didn't say anything about wiping all the Jewish people out. He didn't say anything along the lines of death to the State of Israel either. He is part of the armed force of Hamas, so that does say something about him. He does have hatred. But he sounded similar to an IDF soldier to me. Opposite ends of the spectrum and not seeing eye to eye tho. There's war in the region for that very reason. 

 

I think enough blood and destruction has been shed. It's time for a ceasefire and other countries to step in to help find a diplomatic solution. Amd obviously there needs to be a miraculous shift in Hamas and Israeli govt mentality to where it's something more in the middle to resemble peace.

[Bob Long]

58 minutes ago, Super19 said:

My point was the ANC was literally labelled as a Terrorist Organization by the US and much of the West.

 

And IDK, I'm not actively trying to find parallels between Hamas and Mandela. If I come across anything I'll let you know.

 

But from face value the guy in the video didn't say anything about wiping all the Jewish people out. He didn't say anything along the lines of death to the State of Israel either. He is part of the armed force of Hamas, so that does say something about him. He does have hatred. But he sounded similar to an IDF soldier to me. Opposite ends of the spectrum and not seeing eye to eye tho. There's war in the region for that very reason. 

 

I think enough blood and destruction has been shed. It's time for a ceasefire and other countries to step in to help find a diplomatic solution. Amd obviously there needs to be a miraculous shift in Hamas and Israeli govt mentality to where it's something more in the middle to resemble peace.

 

Ok but where is the appetite for peace? A temporary ceasefire isn't the same thing.

[Satchmo]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

My point was the ANC was literally labelled as a Terrorist Organization by the US and much of the West.

In the very early days the ANC had too many links to communism.  The US does not like that kind of thing. 

[Taxi]

8 hours ago, Super19 said:

This Al-Jazeera interview with a Hamas fighter. In it he tells a story - it proves to a reason for the vicious cycle of how Hamas thrives on recruits. Young Palestenian gets affected by tragedies of war with Israel - grows up with vengeance in his blood - joins Hamas. In the rest of the video you can see parallels between Hamas and IDF in the sense that they both accuse eachother of the same things ie: "If they had their way they would completely get rid of us!"

 

How is this war any different than the previous 5 wars in just over the last decade (besides the scale)? How many young Palestenians that survive this war will grow up with vengeance in their blood and will want to join Hamas, after seeing all the atrocity they are seeing right now? If/when IDF can truly eliminate Hamas this time, there will likely be these young survivors who grow up with that very same vengeance. This vengeance seems likely (maybe not for all, but one too many for sure will blame the IDF/Israeli Govt.) and given the history of resistant Palestenians (how many of these guys are so ready to die or see war just to see what they want?), seems like a very likely outcome no matter if the IDF "eliminates" Hamas in this war - unless it leads to a free state of Palestine co-existing with the State of Israel and a true peace in the region. If that peace with these two states doesn't happen, I fear for the same to continue or I fear even worse things will happen...

 

 

 

 

The problem is you have external forces like Iran providing Hamas with billions of dollars a year to Hamas. Hamas then uses that money to run schools and mosques that teach children they have some religious obligation to kill Israelis. Many of these people are young men who live in an ultra conservative society who are told they will get a harem of virgins in the afterlife. 

 

Yes, the Israeli responses are likely to radicalize people, but Hamas is radicalizing many more people on their own. Hamas is also the kind of organization that will exploit any perceived weakness.

[Taxi]

15 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

In the very early days the ANC had too many links to communism.  The US does not like that kind of thing. 

 

The ANC was committing various acts of terrorism, including bombing churches, shopping malls, and restaurants. At a later date Mandela admitted these actions were wrong and denounced them. Mandela denounced both terrorism and racism and admitted that when he was younger he engaged in these activities that were counter-productive to a peaceful resolution of the conflict in South Africa. Although he did not go as far as to denounce all violence.

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

My point was the ANC was literally labelled as a Terrorist Organization by the US and much of the West.

 

And IDK, I'm not actively trying to find parallels between Hamas and Mandela. If I come across anything I'll let you know.

 

But from face value the guy in the video didn't say anything about wiping all the Jewish people out. He didn't say anything along the lines of death to the State of Israel either. He is part of the armed force of Hamas, so that does say something about him. He does have hatred. But he sounded similar to an IDF soldier to me. Opposite ends of the spectrum and not seeing eye to eye tho. There's war in the region for that very reason. 

 

I think enough blood and destruction has been shed. It's time for a ceasefire and other countries to step in to help find a diplomatic solution. Amd obviously there needs to be a miraculous shift in Hamas and Israeli govt mentality to where it's something more in the middle to resemble peace.

Yay, you found one Hamas member that didn’t say that he wants to kill all the Jews in one particular interview. Let’s now pretend that all the terrorist attacks over the years didn’t happen and remove “terrorists” from their name. Let’s also start spreading veiled messages that maybe Hamas is not that bad. And after that we will claim that we are not Hamas apologists, we are just presenting “facts”. Unfortunately, I can’t reply what I truly think about this position without being banned…

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

I'm an apologist for Hamas because I don't fully support what and the way the IDF are conducting their war? Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

I'm simply reporting an Al-Jazeera story and a valid perspective that ties directly to what is going on right now. And showing how this fight against Hamas seems futile, and more innocent lives including children are being lost for what? Unless Nentanyahu plans to wipe out many, displace many, and keep the survivors for the next 30 years under a strict hand. (Which doesn't sound much like freedom to me).

 

And if you fully support the IDF and Nentanyahu rn, you may be supporting war crimes. An investigation at some point will be inevitable:

 

"South Africa has filed a referral to the International Criminal Court for an investigation into war crimes committed by Israel in Gaza.

“As South Africa we have accordingly, together with many other countries across the world, referred this whole Israeli government action to the International Criminal Court,”  South African President Cyril Ramaphosa said on Wednesday during a state visit to Qatar.

“We have put through a referral because we believe that war crimes are being committed there. And of course we do not condone the actions that were taken by Hamas earlier, but similarly we condemn the actions that are currently underway and believe that they warrant an investigation by the ICC,” he added."

https://www.tamilguardian.com/content/south-africa-refers-israel-icc-and-calls-arrest-warrant-be-issued-netanyahu

 

What's ironic is that the US and much of the West considered the ANC to be a terrorist organization.

Supporting an internationally recognized right to self defence is NOT supporting war crimes: posting apologist letters for/by Hamas is directly supporting a terror regime. 

You might want to think on that.