Hamas attacking Israel

[Optimist Prime]

4 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Alfy how many times will you force me to condemn the Hamas atrocities. I do. I condemn the Israeli ones too.

 

Would you like to see some of the many videos of IDF atrocities I've seen that any good person would condemn? I'm not sure if you think the IDF have not committed many atrocities themselves.

We are a family friendly forum, so no thank you, but I will at the same time acknowledge some exist, this is the way of war, which is why war is worse than the notion of hell and those who start it are condemned globally, not those who now must take the unpleasant task of ending it. 

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Alfy how many times will you force me to condemn the Hamas atrocities. I do. I condemn the Israeli ones too.

 

Would you like to see some of the many videos of IDF atrocities I've seen that any good person would condemn? I'm not sure if you think the IDF have not committed many atrocities themselves.

The fact is without Hamas there is no current war. 
Hamas is why we are where things are. The IDF are doing a thankless (and dangerous) job ridding the world of these Hamas rats. The people of Gaza will soon be free. Then the build up of the region will begin. There will be good jobs, wealth, snd prosperity for the Gazans who accept the new (snd better) ways. 

[Super19]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

You do then accept there is no current war without Hamas actions October 7, right? 

100%. This Israeli response was because of Oct 7.

 

I fear you will not entertain any convo about pre Oct 7. But it's like starting to watch Game of Thrones from Season 4 and you haven't seen the previous seasons.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Seems fair. (Not really)

The IDF releases terrorists in exchange for babies. 
Hamas needs to be destroyed. Good for the IDF being professionals and saving innocent lives the best they can. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Super19 said:

100%. This Israeli response was because of Oct 7.

 

I fear you will not entertain any convo about pre Oct 7. But it's like starting to watch Game of Thrones from Season 4 and you haven't seen the previous seasons.

Don’t have TV. So don’t understand you allusion. The thread title is Hamas attacks Israel and it about October 7 and what happens after. Start a new thread about the history. 

[Optimist Prime]

Just now, Alflives said:

Seems fair. (Not really)

The IDF releases terrorists in exchange for babies. 
Hamas needs to be destroyed. Good for the IDF being professionals and saving innocent lives the best they can. 

My soft side is thankful that 50 babes and moms will be released. My analytical side says this is another mistake by Israel's security council. One of the highest leaders in Hamas was released in one of these kinds of deals that overwhelmingly favoured the terrorists and he is responsible for what happened on Oct 7th as a result. Which of the 150 Hamas people will be the next Hero Martyr in some future war that kills several thousands of the Israeli's? Chechnya stopped taking hostages when Russia just assaulted the high school the Chechen rebels took hostage and killed every living thing inside. Not a good sounding idea but once Chechnya understood that hostages were meaningless to them, they didn't take any more and now, some 20 years later, Chechnya is fighting for Russia in Ukraine. I am sure some hardline voices in those meetings were saying what I just wrote and clearly they were outvoted. I think the pause will lead to more dead IDF soldiers in the long run, and so from a purely analytical outlook, feelings aside: this is a bad deal for Israel. 

 

On that emotional front though, getting even just 50 hostages out, kids and moms, is an amazing result that I didn't think possible and I am glad for them. 

[Super19]

6 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

My soft side is thankful that 50 babes and moms will be released. My analytical side says this is another mistake by Israel's security council. One of the highest leaders in Hamas was released in one of these kinds of deals that overwhelmingly favoured the terrorists and he is responsible for what happened on Oct 7th as a result. Which of the 150 Hamas people will be the next Hero Martyr in some future war that kills several thousands of the Israeli's? Chechnya stopped taking hostages when Russia just assaulted the high school the Chechen rebels took hostage and killed every living thing inside. Not a good sounding idea but once Chechnya understood that hostages were meaningless to them, they didn't take any more and now, some 20 years later, Chechnya is fighting for Russia in Ukraine. I am sure some hardline voices in those meetings were saying what I just wrote and clearly they were outvoted. I think the pause will lead to more dead IDF soldiers in the long run, and so from a purely analytical outlook, feelings aside: this is a bad deal for Israel. 

 

On that emotional front though, getting even just 50 hostages out, kids and moms, is an amazing result that I didn't think possible and I am glad for them. 

It was technically possible from very early on, wasn't it? Israel gets all the hostages back in return for, what was it, 6,000 or so Palestenian prisoners.

 

Also on the emotional front, Id like to add this temporary ceasefire gives a few days of some relief for the innocent Palestenians suffering in a destroyed Gaza rn.

 

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

It was technically possible from very early on, wasn't it? Israel gets all the hostages back in return for, what was it, 6,000 or so Palestenian prisoners.

 

Also on the emotional front, Id like to add this temporary ceasefire gives a few days of some relief for the innocent Palestenians suffering in a destroyed Gaza rn.

 

 

Hana’s hostages are babies and girls. Are you actually suggesting the IDF have such Palistinians in captivity? Are you equating babies with terrorists? 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

No, brother, I’m not pissed at you at all. The main reason - you are not blindly criticizing Israel for everything, no matter what. Your approach is fair to both sides. I don’t always agree with you on some of your posts, but you are not a $100 bill to always be liked . I said it all along - there are things that Israel can and should be criticized on. Hell, 50% of Israel is constantly criticizing its government until the elections switch the coalition - and then the other 50% criticize the new government. What the “critics” on my ignore list keep on ignoring is that I was always steadfast that only blind criticism of absolutely everything that Israel does, no matter what, not giving Israel any benefit of the doubt under any circumstances - that’s when anti-Israeli sentiment turns into antisemitism (or, shall I say, that’s what uncovers that truly, the antisemitism is the real driving force behind the “anti-Israeli” position). And I feel the same way not only about you and your posts but also about my brother from another mother, @Ilunga 

 

I appreciate the sentiment Roman, it means a lot. 

 

I know a bang on about this a lot, I feel compassion/ empathy for all people.

 

I have been told this all through my life, my good heart is my saving grace.

That's also the only type of person I want in my life, don't care what you've achieved, don't care what you own, you just have to have a kind heart

 

 

[Super19]

Just now, Alflives said:

Hana’s hostages are babies and girls. Are you actually suggesting the IDF have such Palistinians in captivity? Are you equating babies with terrorists? 

When an innocent is taken hostage or kidnapped, and I had the ransom to get them back, and I cared about the hostage, I would take the deal. I'm not equating the hostage with the price of 1 or 2 or 10 million, or equal to whatever it is I have to pay. I just want the hostage freed. 
Nentanyahu said no AND 6,000 children died. You know, Nentanyahu could have said yes, and then 6,000 children could've died. At least the 250 hostages would've been free and out of harms way, and then Nentanyahu could've stuck it to Hamas after.

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

 

[Super19]

"Gaza is a 'textbook genocide'. This is according to Raz Segal - an Israeli associate professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton University in the US. Listen carefully to what he says. It's based on facts, law and precedent - and it should terrify you."

 

 

 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Hana’s hostages are babies and girls. Are you actually suggesting the IDF have such Palistinians in captivity? Are you equating babies with terrorists? 

"Israel and Hamas have agreed a deal for the release of 50 women and children hostages held in Gaza in return for 150 Palestinian women and children to be freed from Israeli jails during a four-day ceasefire, both sides announced on Wednesday morning."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/22/israel-hamas-war-hostages-freed-deal-ceasefire 
 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

My soft side is thankful that 50 babes and moms will be released. My analytical side says this is another mistake by Israel's security council. One of the highest leaders in Hamas was released in one of these kinds of deals that overwhelmingly favoured the terrorists and he is responsible for what happened on Oct 7th as a result. Which of the 150 Hamas people will be the next Hero Martyr in some future war that kills several thousands of the Israeli's? Chechnya stopped taking hostages when Russia just assaulted the high school the Chechen rebels took hostage and killed every living thing inside. Not a good sounding idea but once Chechnya understood that hostages were meaningless to them, they didn't take any more and now, some 20 years later, Chechnya is fighting for Russia in Ukraine. I am sure some hardline voices in those meetings were saying what I just wrote and clearly they were outvoted. I think the pause will lead to more dead IDF soldiers in the long run, and so from a purely analytical outlook, feelings aside: this is a bad deal for Israel. 

 

On that emotional front though, getting even just 50 hostages out, kids and moms, is an amazing result that I didn't think possible and I am glad for them. 

Correct:

"The Israeli cabinet backed the agreement after talks on a Qatar-mediated deal that continued into the early hours of Wednesday morning, with Israeli media reporting heated exchanges between ministers of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government.

In the end, only three of the 38 members of the cabinet voted against the truce – National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir and two other members of his far-right political party." 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/22/israel-agrees-to-ceasefire-deal-paving-way-for-some-captives-release

 

From what I know, Ben-Gvir is evil.  

[Optimist Prime]

Amanpour is on point tonight if yu are able to turn on CNN

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

Amanpour is on point tonight if yu are able to turn on CNN

Just tuned in. 

[Super19]

4 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Amanpour is on point tonight if yu are able to turn on CNN

the step before we answer what happens after this war ends, we need to answer HOW will this war end?

[Optimist Prime]

The gentleman from the UN was a great spokesman. I have believed in the UN for decades, despite failings like Rawanda where the R.O.E.'s were ruinous, and allowing UNRWA to be heavily infiltrated by Hamas in the strip.

[Optimist Prime]

Some of the best jobs in Gaza are the 5000 UNRWA positions, paid by the UN, so us here in Canada paybour portion of that bill. I thought it was only 3000 but the guy on Amanpour stated 5000. Hamas won basically union elections and it is estimated that somewhere between 30% and 80 % of UNRWA staff are Hamas members. Remember they are the better paying jobs and there is always access to food and water. At the low end it is 1 in 3, at the high end 8 of every ten. In some ways Hamas is wearing blue vests and operating in open daylight. This is how those ambulances end up full of hamas fights and rockets, but also how UNWRA is still operating, Hamas still needs to try to govern and are relegating food and aid to UNWRA, but really still them. It also explains the great lengths to prevent the IDF from simply walking into the hospitals. If there was no Hamas inside, the IDF wouldn't have had to fight their way in. That is just common sense. This is, I believe why the wests/Israels authorities don't trust the numbers, from UNRWA, as that unit is compromised.

[RomanPer]

Just went through the list of 300 Palestinian inmates that Israel prepared for exchange. Vast majority are males 18 y/o and younger, most of them arrested for throwing stones and Molotov cocktails. Most arrested within the last year. Somewhere between 20-30 females aged between 25 and 50. Most females are convicted for attempted murder/knife attacks. Doesn’t look like this wave includes anyone at the level of Sinwar (who was already a killer at a time of his exchange).

[Optimist Prime]

This is certainly an opportunity, but I can't help but be skeptical of Hamas words.

[Super19]

13 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Just went through the list of 300 Palestinian inmates that Israel prepared for exchange. Vast majority are males 18 y/o and younger, most of them arrested for throwing stones and Molotov cocktails. Most arrested within the last year. Somewhere between 20-30 females aged between 25 and 50. Most females are convicted for attempted murder/knife attacks. Doesn’t look like this wave includes anyone at the level of Sinwar (who was already a killer at a time of his exchange).

Those interested in the list @RomanPer went through can find it here:
https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=0

 

As per the females, there were 60 included in the list, in addition to dozens of others. Most of the charges against them range from harming the security of the region, infiltrating into Israel without a permit, throwing stones, possessing weapons and causing damage. This information was reported by Al-Jazeera sourcing the Israeli Justice Ministry list that was publised.

 

Some more information about the Palestenians in Israeli prisons:

"Most Palestinians imprisoned by Israel are being held under laws and military orders that allow detention without trial or charge.

Here’s what we know about them:

• Before October 7, there were about 5,200 Palestinians in Israeli prisons
• Since then, Israeli forces have arrested at least 3,000 more Palestinians during daily raids across the occupied West Bank and occupied East Jerusalem
• At least 145 of them are children, according to rights and monitoring groups
• At least 95 are women
• At least 37 are journalists"
  
  https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/22/israel-hamas-war-live-israeli-government-to-vote-on-gaza-truce-deal

 

As to which 150 will be released, the only information I found was from the Hamas official statement on the ceasefire:
"

The release of 50 women and children of the occupation’s detainees, all under the age of 19 years, in exchange for the release of 150 women and children of our people from the occupation’s prisons under the age of 19 years, in order of time imprisoned. "

 

 

An official Israeli govt statement said the truce would be extended an extra day for every additional 10 hostages released by Hamas.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-hamas-hostages-deal-1.7033147

[Super19]

https://cpj.org/2023/11/al-mayadeen-tv-reporter-and-videographer-killed-by-israeli-strike-in-south-lebanon/

"Al-Mayadeen TV reporter and videographer killed by Israeli strike in south Lebanon"

 

 

[RomanPer]

28 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Those interested in the list @RomanPer went through can find it here:
https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=0

 

As per the females, there were 60 included in the list, in addition to dozens of others. Most of the charges against them range from harming the security of the region, infiltrating into Israel without a permit, throwing stones, possessing weapons and causing damage. This information was reported by Al-Jazeera sourcing the Israeli Justice Ministry list that was publised.

 

Some more information about the Palestenians in Israeli prisons:

"Most Palestinians imprisoned by Israel are being held under laws and military orders that allow detention without trial or charge.

Here’s what we know about them:

• Before October 7, there were about 5,200 Palestinians in Israeli prisons
• Since then, Israeli forces have arrested at least 3,000 more Palestinians during daily raids across the occupied West Bank and occupied East Jerusalem
• At least 145 of them are children, according to rights and monitoring groups
• At least 95 are women
• At least 37 are journalists"
  
  https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/22/israel-hamas-war-live-israeli-government-to-vote-on-gaza-truce-deal

 

As to which 150 will be released, the only information I found was from the Hamas official statement on the ceasefire:
"

The release of 50 women and children of the occupation’s detainees, all under the age of 19 years, in exchange for the release of 150 women and children of our people from the occupation’s prisons under the age of 19 years, in order of time imprisoned. "

 

 

An official Israeli govt statement said the truce would be extended an extra day for every additional 10 hostages released by Hamas.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-hamas-hostages-deal-1.7033147

 

Don’t know where the number of 60 women came from. I just counted - 32 women out of 300. If we are talking about specifically females on the list, their charges are primarily attempted murder/knife attack. Some have “support terror” charge. Almost no women were charged with throwing stones. See, I’m reading the source information as it’s written, not as it’s been translated by Al Jazeera…