Hamas attacking Israel

[Optimist Prime]

55 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Lol, I’ve been called many things in life. Antisemite is not one of them lol.

Lol, well now you have a full bingo.

[Optimist Prime]

Looks like the first day of the truce has started, with gunfire and explosions dying down, by morning here we will know if the first 13 hostages get released. This is a win for the poor kids of Gaza 100%, regardless. Time to get food and water and hopefully the orphans sorted out and provided for.

[Canuck Surfer]

Hamas attacked Oct 7 because Israel was getting close to signing peace accords, including major concessions with Arab nations. Notably the Saudi's.  

 

Which goes against Iranian goals of controlling the ME, Hamas controlling 'Palestine!'  

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Boudrias]

6 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Hamas attacked Oct 7 because Israel was getting close to signing peace accords, including major concessions with Arab nations. Notably the Saudi's.  

 

Which goes against Iranian goals of controlling the ME, Hamas controlling 'Palestine!'  

 

 

IMHO Harari has distilled the situation to a realistic conclusion. Hamas's military capability must be destroyed so that a peaceful path can be pursued with some certainty that it will not be derailed in the future. It appears clear to me that Sunni led governments in the ME are allowing Israel to eliminate Hamas. Hezbollah is not joining the fight either because it is not certain of its own security within Lebanon or because their financial benefactors in Tehran are nervous about what might evolve with a Israeli - Sunni alliance. Hezbollah might be a useful a useful pawn they can use in the future. 

 

The clock is ticking in the ME. Israel and Saudi Arabia realize that Iran is close to a nuclear bomb and has the ability to deliver it. Iran has few allies and their friend Putin is hard pressed to survive his Ukrainian war. Peace agreements with Israel likely means that Iran has to stop supplying weapons to Russia as they will stockpile for their use. Peace between Israel and the Saudis could easily lead to a pre-emptive attack on Iran. 

 

Harari's book Sapiens is an excellent read.  

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

IMHO Harari has distilled the situation to a realistic conclusion. Hamas's military capability must be destroyed so that a peaceful path can be pursued with some certainty that it will not be derailed in the future. It appears clear to me that Sunni led governments in the ME are allowing Israel to eliminate Hamas. Hezbollah is not joining the fight either because it is not certain of its own security within Lebanon or because their financial benefactors in Tehran are nervous about what might evolve with a Israeli - Sunni alliance. Hezbollah might be a useful a useful pawn they can use in the future. 

 

The clock is ticking in the ME. Israel and Saudi Arabia realize that Iran is close to a nuclear bomb and has the ability to deliver it. Iran has few allies and their friend Putin is hard pressed to survive his Ukrainian war. Peace agreements with Israel likely means that Iran has to stop supplying weapons to Russia as they will stockpile for their use. Peace between Israel and the Saudis could easily lead to a pre-emptive attack on Iran. 

 

Harari's book Sapiens is an excellent read.  

I've said very early on ITT that as long as Israel doesn't target al-Aqsa mosque, Saudi will let Israel destroy and take Gaza and will likely be the ones working with Israel to sign a massive peace deal to the region. 

I've said this will come at the cost of many innocent lives, and the state of Palestine will never be free. Palestenians are one of the groups of people in this world that the world let down.

I don't know what you think a realistic conclusion to this is... if Israel finishes the job, it'll be akin to genocide. It is well established that this violence and oppression against Palestenians in Gaza only strengthens the resistance mentality. So unless Israel kills and displaces most Palestenians, this vengeful and violent brain of resistance/Hamas will always be there as long as Palestenians in Gaza want to be free. And they deserve to be free.

 

And since you're talking about realism, a realist would understand the atrocious Hamas Oct 7 attack wasn't driven by a conspiracy about Iran, that attack was built up in a pressure cooker of a people that were pushed to no other choice due being oppressed and occupied. It is well known no matter how much you can try to deny, that Israel has held a firm and oppressive hand over Palestenians for decades now, and have been inching forward in their occupational forces.

 

I was reading that one of the prisoners Israel detained (and is one of the prisoners to be released in the hostage deal) was a lady who was defending herself after an Israeli tried to remove her hijab. Many of the prisoners are allowed to be sentenced without any fair trial.

 

If this war continues, Saudi will offer lip service for the Palestenians but behind closed doors they'll let Israel continue - Saudi has no desire to fight Israel. And if Israel finishes the job, I don't see how that entails anything but killing and displacing most Palestenians and allowing the remaining Palestenians that survive to be kept under humiliating control in the land. It'll be a heartbreaking end for the Palestenian plight.  But yes, that sacrifice would bring about a peace in the region. But it's like blood money. An unjustified way for peace at the cost of a nation.

 

My solution? Permanent ceasefire now. Hamas and IDF surrender. Broker peace talks... Israel needs to be held accountable for their oppressive actions and be the bigger man and apologize for decades of abuse, and militant wing of Hamas needs to be surrendered and the state of their leadership needs to be held accountable. Neither of the two evil forces get a free pass. Find a path for leadership of Palestine while rebuilding Gaza. Draw lines for a 2 state solution. Coexist, thrive, and live in peace.

My opinion. Because the way I realistically see things going right now is an eventual complete destruction of Palestine. Do you not agree that a free state of Palestine should exist?

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

I've said very early on ITT that as long as Israel doesn't target al-Aqsa mosque, Saudi will let Israel destroy and take Gaza and will likely be the ones working with Israel to sign a massive peace deal to the region. 

I've said this will come at the cost of many innocent lives, and the state of Palestine will never be free. Palestenians are one of the groups of people in this world that the world let down.

I don't know what you think a realistic conclusion to this is... if Israel finishes the job, it'll be akin to genocide. It is well established that this violence and oppression against Palestenians in Gaza only strengthens the resistance mentality. So unless Israel kills and displaces most Palestenians, this vengeful and violent brain of resistance/Hamas will always be there as long as Palestenians in Gaza want to be free. And they deserve to be free.

 

And since you're talking about realism, a realist would understand the atrocious Hamas Oct 7 attack wasn't driven by a conspiracy about Iran, that attack was built up in a pressure cooker of a people that were pushed to no other choice due being oppressed and occupied. It is well known no matter how much you can try to deny, that Israel has held a firm and oppressive hand over Palestenians for decades now, and have been inching forward in their occupational forces.

 

I was reading that one of the prisoners Israel detained (and is one of the prisoners to be released in the hostage deal) was a lady who was defending herself after an Israeli tried to remove her hijab. Many of the prisoners are allowed to be sentenced without any fair trial.

 

If this war continues, Saudi will offer lip service for the Palestenians but behind closed doors they'll let Israel continue - Saudi has no desire to fight Israel. And if Israel finishes the job, I don't see how that entails anything but killing and displacing most Palestenians and allowing the remaining Palestenians that survive to be kept under humiliating control in the land. It'll be a heartbreaking end for the Palestenian plight.  But yes, that sacrifice would bring about a peace in the region. But it's like blood money. An unjustified way for peace at the cost of a nation.

 

My solution? Permanent ceasefire now. Hamas and IDF surrender. Broker peace talks... Israel needs to be held accountable for their oppressive actions and be the bigger man and apologize for decades of abuse, and militant wing of Hamas needs to be surrendered and the state of their leadership needs to be held accountable. Neither of the two evil forces get a free pass. Find a path for leadership of Palestine while rebuilding Gaza. Draw lines for a 2 state solution. Coexist, thrive, and live in peace.

My opinion. Because the way I realistically see things going right now is an eventual complete destruction of Palestine. Do you not agree that a free state of Palestine should exist?

There is a lot here to unpack: off the top of my head the bolded bit is pure fantasy of the kind of drivel that is used to convince young Palestinian men to give up their lives for nothing, in that it is just wishthinking without any concrete plan or action to make it happen. Blowing yourself up for the cause is similar wishthinking: nothing comes of it other than limited destruction and sorrow, but the wishthinking part of it makes it an attractive concept. Martyrdom, rewards in the afterlife, killing jews...all the things that a young palistinian man might want. wishthinking.

 

About the timing of the attack: one would have to be naive to think it wasn't timed specifically to interrupt the peace deals with the Saudi's. Iran is being isolated in the region and their proxies in Yemen, Lebanon and Gaza are doing their bidding in exchange for their support. 

 

I am not convinced that a 'free state of Palestine' should exist...it has never existed before. However, if it would lead to a more or less permanent peace in the region, I am all for the West Bank being granted some kind of Sovereign Nation status. I just don't believe this would solve anything. The people of the 'new' nation of Palestine would eventually seek to destroy the people of Israel. Sorry to disagree on the happily ever after, but there is not a scenario that, in my opinion, leads to that magical fantasy day of peace between Israel and Gaza. Not until the Palestinian peoples give up their idea of taking back their great granddads apartment in Haifa. 

In my experience the people of Palestine consider any truce or peace deal temporary until they can re-arm for their endless ideologically driven goal of wiping Israel off the map. Basically Palestinian leadership would need to unequivocally agree to Israel's right to exist for any of this have a snowballs hope in hell of happening, and I don't see that being a reality without overwhelming military defeat. 

 

Look at it this way: Gaza has had a government for for sixteen years now that has been focused only on destroying Israel. You don't speak at all about how the people of Gaza de-radicalize to make peace a reality. We paid for water pipes in Gaza...the people of Gaza dug them up to make rockets. How do you convince people willing to die for their cause that no one should die for any cause?

[Super19]

18 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

There is a lot here to unpack: off the top of my head the bolded bit is pure fantasy of the kind of drivel that is used to convince young Palestinian men to give up their lives for nothing, in that it is just wishthinking without any concrete plan or action to make it happen. Blowing yourself up for the cause is similar wishthinking: nothing comes of it other than limited destruction and sorrow, but the wishthinking part of it makes it an attractive concept. Martyrdom, rewards in the afterlife, killing jews...all the things that a young palistinian man might want. wishthinking.

 

About the timing of the attack: one would have to be naive to think it wasn't timed specifically to interrupt the peace deals with the Saudi's. Iran is being isolated in the region and their proxies in Yemen, Lebanon and Gaza are doing their bidding in exchange for their support. 

 

I am not convinced that a 'free state of Palestine' should exist...it has never existed before. However, if it would lead to a more or less permanent peace in the region, I am all for the West Bank being granted some kind of Sovereign Nation status. I just don't believe this would solve anything. The people of the 'new' nation of Palestine would eventually seek to destroy the people of Israel. Sorry to disagree on the happily ever after, but there is not a scenario that, in my opinion, leads to that magical fantasy day of peace between Israel and Gaza. Not until the Palestinian peoples give up their idea of taking back their great granddads apartment in Haifa. 

In my experience the people of Palestine consider any truce or peace deal temporary until they can re-arm for their endless ideologically driven goal of wiping Israel off the map. Basically Palestinian leadership would need to unequivocally agree to Israel's right to exist for any of this have a snowballs hope in hell of happening, and I don't see that being a reality without overwhelming military defeat. 

 

Look at it this way: Gaza has had a government for for sixteen years now that has been focused only on destroying Israel. You don't speak at all about how the people of Gaza de-radicalize to make peace a reality. We paid for water pipes in Gaza...the people of Gaza dug them up to make rockets. How do you convince people willing to die for their cause that no one should die for any cause?

I think those are stereotypes of an Islamic terrorist that are wrongly attributed to the real and genuine plight of a Palestenian. If you can't agree that a Palestenian wants to be free in Palestine then you don't understand their views. This is not mindless brainwashed suicide bombing to enjoy the sweetness of heaven and if they get to kill a few jews along the way then great. That's actually quite an offensive and dehumanizing portrait painted of a people greatly oppressed. It's also sad they are pushed to do these horrible things. From an Israeli perspective, this is just how Palestenians are, hateful and bloodthirsty to destroy Jews and Israel. 

 

We can end the conversation there if you'd like, but I think that portrayal is not accurate. And innocent people are dying because of it, and innocent people will never be free in their nation because of it.

 

I also think Israel's fears are not realistic. I understand the fear. But it's not realistic, and it comes from this dehumanizing of Palestenians. And IMO it gives Israel the false justification that they can destroy Gaza because of it and continue occupying there.

 

Palestinians haven't had a leadership in 16 years, they've just had a resistance. And will continue to have a resistance until they're either wiped out or free. And no I don't think Israel will be destroyed if Palestine is indeed free. Gaza will be free. West Bank will be free. Occupied Jerusalem will be free. Perhaps some descendents of Palestenian refugees will have the right return. But Israel will still be standing strong in their land there. And with Palestine being free there is no need to resist and thus no need to de-radicalize... sure some hatred towards their former oppressors may linger for a bit, but in time will be healed, and there will be peace throughout it all because I truly believe the Palestinian plight is not against Jewish people living in the state of Israel which has the right to exist. It is a plight for Palestjne which has a right to exist and would be a big win for humanity for the two to coexist. I do think there is a path for a happily ever after, but I do think this current path Israel is planning is doomsday for Palestine and Palestinians that'll eventually resolve in a twisted sense of peace in the region.

 

(And yes, the timing of Oct 7 is probably no coincidence, especially if Hamas felt threatened by that Saudis and Israeli peace deal would leave no option for a state of Palestine.)

 

[Taxi]

13 hours ago, Super19 said:

What did you think of Norman Finklesteins comments? His parents were holocaust survivors btw. 

 

Normal Finklestein has a career devoted to being against Israel. He's an academic and every piece of writing from his thesis onwards has been against Israel. To hold him up as someone making commentary on recent events is absurd, as he will make anti-Israel comments no matter what happens. 

 

The fact he is Jewish and allowed to speak freely about Israel shows how democratic Israel is in comparison to other nations. Look at what happened to Salmon Rushdie for writing a fictional book.  

 

I also don't see why guys like Finklestein  constantly get paraded around. I could just as easily find Muslims who are pro-Israel/Anti-Palestine. In fact, there are thousands of Muslims fighting in the IDF right now. 

[Optimist Prime]

28 minutes ago, Super19 said:

I think those are stereotypes of an Islamic terrorist that are wrongly attributed to the real and genuine plight of a Palestenian. If you can't agree that a Palestenian wants to be free in Palestine then you don't understand their views. This is not mindless brainwashed suicide bombing to enjoy the sweetness of heaven and if they get to kill a few jews along the way then great. That's actually quite an offensive and dehumanizing portrait painted of a people greatly oppressed. It's also sad they are pushed to do these horrible things. From an Israeli perspective, this is just how Palestenians are, hateful and bloodthirsty to destroy Jews and Israel. 

Obviously there are people within the community that want peace and prosperity, but large portions of them also want Israel to be destroyed. I don't think I am biased the way you think i may be. Everyone is biased, that is true. I have spent a lot of time among the arab people, probably more than almost anyone else here, I am speaking from my lived experience, not from reading articles and watching tiktok. 

We can end the conversation there if you'd like, but I think that portrayal is not accurate. And innocent people are dying because of it, and innocent people will never be free in their nation because of it.

There has never been a Nation of Palestine.

I also think Israel's fears are not realistic. I understand the fear. But it's not realistic, and it comes from this dehumanizing of Palestenians. And IMO it gives Israel the false justification that they can destroy Gaza because of it and continue occupying there.

 At every opportunity for almost 80 years palestinian people have blown up busses, vendor stalls, malls and theaters. The people running the community say repeatedly their goal is to wipe israel off the map: why are these fears not realistic then?

Palestinians haven't had a leadership in 16 years, they've just had a resistance. And will continue to have a resistance until they're either wiped out or free. And no I don't think Israel will be destroyed if Palestine is indeed free. Gaza will be free. West Bank will be free. Occupied Jerusalem will be free.

What do you mean Occupied Jerusalem will be free? You think Israel will give land back and in Jerusalem of all places? Wishthinking at its highest degree.

Perhaps some descendents of Palestenian refugees will have the right return. But Israel will still be standing strong in their land there. And with Palestine being free there is no need to resist and thus no need to de-radicalize...

I believe now that you simply don't have the knowledge to carry on. If you honestly feel that Palestinians don't need to de-radicalize there is nothing more to say here. I fully believe you are a Hamas apologist if not worse. Your continued words leave little room for doubt. 

sure some hatred towards their former oppressors may linger for a bit, but in time will be healed, and there will be peace throughout it all because I truly believe the Palestinian plight is not against Jewish people living in the state of Israel which has the right to exist.

Then you are not listening to the people you seem so set on defending. The entire ideology of the "Free Palestine" movement is the destruction of Israel.

It is a plight for Palestjne which has a right to exist

Why does Palestine have a 'right' to exist? A nation that has never existed? Should the Ottoman Turks control the whole area then, as that is what existed before British and then Israeli rule.

 and would be a big win for humanity for the two to coexist. I do think there is a path for a happily ever after, but I do think this current path Israel is planning is doomsday for Palestine and Palestinians that'll eventually resolve in a twisted sense of peace in the region.

Sometimes the best peace is made by destroying the beligerants. I think of Hamas as wild rabid dogs that must be put down, they have proven it time and time again. History shows us that a fully defeated people who give up their radical goals become the greatest allies going forward. Japan for example as it relates to the allied forces of ww2.

 

(And yes, the timing of Oct 7 is probably no coincidence, especially if Hamas felt threatened by that Saudis and Israeli peace deal would leave no option for a state of Palestine.)

It is purely coincidence to you that Yemen and Hezbollah stopped firing rockets the moment the truce began? Iran has nothing to do with co-ordinating the efforts of its tentacle proxy units? K, help yourself to extra dessert today and play with your dogs, it is a wonderful life.

 

I have replied with bold lettering in the quote of your post. Also, this polling in the West Bank and Gaza says it all:

Quote

Approximately 60 percent of Palestinians (77% in the Gaza Strip and 46% in the West Bank), support armed attacks against Israelis

I have a lot of hope that the West Bank might be a key part of a lasting peace. Perhaps re-unifying it with Trans-Jordan, extending Jordan's borders to include the west bank as a condition for giving Palestinians there citizenship in the kingdom? An option perhaps that solves the leadership issues expands Jordan back to an earlier border definition and gives the Palestinians a path to peace and prosperity.

[Super19]

6 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

 

 

Right now, in these conditions, absolutely deradicilation needs to occur. But in my fairy tale ending it would all be resolved.

 

The ending that you are defending, I don't see how there is a path to save innocent life in Gaza. And the West Bank at this rate. You do realize if Israel wants to truly eliminate Hamas, majority of innocents there are and will be killed or displaced, especially at this current rate. There is no other option for you then but this, and if you don't realize this then you lack the foresight in the severity of this war.

 

Yes you get to kill all Hamas, but you also kill all Palestenians. Few will be allowed left to live.

[RomanPer]

37 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

Normal Finklestein has a career devoted to being against Israel. He's an academic and every piece of writing from his thesis onwards has been against Israel. To hold him up as someone making commentary on recent events is absurd, as he will make anti-Israel comments no matter what happens. 

 

The fact he is Jewish and allowed to speak freely about Israel shows how democratic Israel is in comparison to other nations. Look at what happened to Salmon Rushdie for writing a fictional book.  

 

I also don't see why guys like Finklestein  constantly get paraded around. I could just as easily find Muslims who are pro-Israel/Anti-Palestine. In fact, there are thousands of Muslims fighting in the IDF right now. 

 

Thank you for this. I also don’t understand the whole “his parents are Holocaust (btw, spelled in the original post with lower case, which, i hope, was just a typo) survivors” argument. Is that supposed to be some sort of mark or special right to an opinion? Newsflash - every single Jew with European roots that is alive today has someone in the family who either survived or did not survive the Holocaust.

[Optimist Prime]

12 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 

Right now, in these conditions, absolutely deradicilation needs to occur. But in my fairy tale ending it would all be resolved.

 

The ending that you are defending, I don't see how there is a path to save innocent life in Gaza. And the West Bank at this rate. You do realize if Israel wants to truly eliminate Hamas, majority of innocents there are and will be killed or displaced, especially at this current rate. There is no other option for you then but this, and if you don't realize this then you lack the foresight in the severity of this war.

 

Yes you get to kill all Hamas, but you also kill all Palestenians. Few will be allowed left to live.

You have made it abundantly clear your position is that Israel must give in to Hamas demands or the killing of Israeli's will continue far into the future, this is why i say you sound like an Hamas Apologist.  Your 'solution' seems to be the same solution Hamas has declared, with the one exception that you don't also include at this time "and death to israel'. 

 

edit: also note I am not defending a given ending: the best ending is peace and prosperity for all: i am just trying to keep our pie in the sky wishthinking out of the reality of the situation. "what if all the mothers stopped taking machete's to their kids heads in Rawanda" is a nice thought but it had nothing to do with a real solution there. it is kindergarten levels of putting thought into a situation that, lets face it, has been boiling for two thousand years. 

[Super19]

24 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I have replied with bold lettering in the quote of your post. Also, this polling in the West Bank and Gaza says it all:

I have a lot of hope that the West Bank might be a key part of a lasting peace. Perhaps re-unifying it with Trans-Jordan, extending Jordan's borders to include the west bank as a condition for giving Palestinians there citizenship in the kingdom? An option perhaps that solves the leadership issues expands Jordan back to an earlier border definition and gives the Palestinians a path to peace and prosperity.

In this scenario, how do you expect to deradiclize Gazans who have been forcibly displaced and robbed of a life after seeing a total destruction of their homes and families in Gaza? I fear some of that same vengeful blood that led gazans to fight in Hamas would transfer over to the West Bank in these conditions. And then what will happen? A war waged against a newly formed hamas in West Bank?

 

How do you give these kids growing up and former gazans a real shot under this scenario? To end their vengeance after this war? It's not moral nor right for whichever gazan that transfers their hate upon surviving this war, (and not everyone will transfer it)but it would not be surprising if the West bank becomes radicilized for the worse.

 

It'd be much easier if a 2 state solution is made.

[Optimist Prime]

2 minutes ago, Super19 said:

It'd be much easier if a 2 state solution is made.

and then in 2034 when the new nation of Palestine attacks Israel, what would you do then?

[bolt]

What justification did Hamas have in kidnapping Thai and Filipino citizens?  Why did they keep than captive for over a month?  I'm supposed to support "Free Palestine" so they can behave like barbarians?  Do you think the jews that used to live in other Arab countries will be accepted back humanely if you want to free Palestine as they say?  We can just pretend that Sharia law is progressive and accept that as a cultural difference?

Edited November 24, 2023 by bolt

[King Heffy]

6 minutes ago, Super19 said:

In this scenario, how do you expect to deradiclize Gazans who have been forcibly displaced and robbed of a life after seeing a total destruction of their homes and families in Gaza? I fear some of that same vengeful blood that led gazans to fight in Hamas would transfer over to the West Bank in these conditions. And then what will happen? A war waged against a newly formed hamas in West Bank?

 

How do you give these kids growing up and former gazans a real shot under this scenario? To end their vengeance after this war? It's not moral nor right for whichever gazan that transfers their hate upon surviving this war, (and not everyone will transfer it)but it would not be surprising if the West bank becomes radicilized for the worse.

 

It'd be much easier if a 2 state solution is made.

You occupy the territory, execute as many Hamas members as possible, and provide them with a better standard of life.  

[Super19]

Just now, Optimist Prime said:

and then in 2034 when the new nation of Palestine attacks Israel, what would you do then?

I would absolutely condemn the attack and see it as a crime against humanity. There will be a sacred agreement that Palestine is not to take or destroy Israel and vice versa. And if infringed upon would mean heavy consequences.  I would expect both sides to respect whatever lines and coexist like anywhere else. And if Palestine was the one to break it, I would label them as the oppressors and sympathize with Israel.

[Optimist Prime]

Just now, King Heffy said:

You occupy the territory, execute as many Hamas members as possible, and provide them with a better standard of life.  

or prison, i am not saying they must die, but it is their preferential way to go down.

[bolt]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

 

 

It'd be much easier if a 2 state solution is made.

The Palestinians rejected that many times.  They want full control of Israel from the "River to Sea" nothing else.  Unfortunately most people seem to pretend that doesn't include eradicating jews in a real genocide.

Edited November 24, 2023 by bolt

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

I would absolutely condemn the attack and see it as a crime against humanity. There will be a sacred agreement that Palestine is not to take or destroy Israel and vice versa. And if infringed upon would mean heavy consequences.  I would expect both sides to respect whatever lines and coexist like anywhere else. And if Palestine was the one to break it, I would label them as the oppressors and sympathize with Israel.

The Gazans didn't do that now, why would they do it if they are emboldened by 'victory' in attaining statehood? Again it is a nice thought, but that is all. The 2 state solution is a good idea once hostile people are not at the bargaining table. 

[Super19]

I will say this ceasefire feels like the sun just momentarily poking through the dark clouds. Instead of worrying about what bombs dropping where and killing who, can actually discuss some resolutions. 

 

I hope all the hostages are returned and all innocent prisoners are released and those held without a trial are subject to a fair one.

[Super19]

35 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

You occupy the territory, execute as many Hamas members as possible, and provide them with a better standard of life.  

What has Israel been doing the past couple decades? Do you deny the occupying of some territory? Do you deny Israel apprehending as many Hamas and rock&molotov chucking teens as possible? Do you deny Israel providing Gazans with a better standard of life?

 

No? But they gotta kill more, and forcibly displace more. And then? Occupy? Kill? "Provide a better standard of life"? All in the West Bank this time - not Gaza. Yeah, that sounds different this time, it should solve everything.

[Optimist Prime]

9 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 Do you deny Israel apprehending as many Hamas and rock&molotov chucking teens as possible?

What on earth should be done about people chucking flaming bottles of gas at other humans? Sometimes your lines go off the tarmac into the tundra my friend.

[Super19]

52 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

or prison, i am not saying they must die, but it is their preferential way to go down.

Yeah weed them all out. Once innocent children but now hating the people that bombed them? How dare they? Straight to jail for these future terrorsits.

 

In the meantime in Gaza, theyll kill 15k+ people. 70% women and children. Less people to have to take care of once the war is done, and the sketchy ones can go to prison. Also no one will believe that these women and children are dying anyway because these are just numbers Hamas are throwing out of their ass. And the ones that actually died? Shame on Hamas! Using them as human shields, left Israel literally no other choice but continue the torrential downpour of bombs this point. Sad but need to kill Hamas for their own benefit.. FAFO.