Hamas attacking Israel

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

um, hate to break it to you, but thats what every country does. every military has to decide if an attack is worth the cost in both lives of their own soldiers and civilian casualties. The only difference is how much civilian death is considered worth the cost. For western nations we tend to favor towards limiting the casualties whereas those on the authoritarian side tend to favor killing more civilians as they rarely  value lives as highly as the west and consider harming the enemy more important(Russia is a good example of this). Intelligence organizations are supposed to have data on their enemies to help make these decisions. As to the AI scaremongering there, the US uses a ton of AI in its decision making as well, probably the most in the world. I like how they threw the word dystopian in there too. Trying to hit all the trigger points with that article eh?

When the USA took Bin Laden out how many others were killed. All I heard was cheers. Hamas uses human shields and the Israelis realize that. Not one IDF soldier should be put at risk in any of their missions.  

[RomanPer]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

"

WOW, this might be THE most important piece of journalism on the war on Gaza since it began, by Israeli newspaper @972mag :
972mag.com/mass-assassina…

Essentially they confirm, with unimpeachable sourcing, that the killing of civilians was all calculated and intentional.

Their investigation is "based on conversations with seven current and former members of Israel’s intelligence community — including military intelligence and air force personnel who were involved in Israeli operations in the besieged Strip — in addition to Palestinian testimonies, data, and documentation from the Gaza Strip, and official statements by the IDF Spokesperson and other Israeli state institutions."

What the investigation reveals is that "the Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed."

One source told them: "Nothing happens by accident. When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home."

Even more dystopian - and this might be a first in the history of warfare - a lot of the targets are identified by AI: for instance they "use of a system called 'Habsora' ('The Gospel'), which is largely built on artificial intelligence and can 'generate' targets almost automatically at a rate that far exceeds what was previously possible. This AI system, as described by a former intelligence officer, essentially facilitates a 'mass assassination factory.' According to the sources, the increasing use of AI-based systems like Habsora allows the army to carry out strikes on residential homes where a single Hamas member lives on a massive scale, even those who are junior Hamas operatives."

I'm not going to copy the whole article here, you have to read this for yourself. IT IS INSANE. They've essentially been running, as the sources say, a "mass assassination factory" at a terrifying scale with massive and intended "collateral damage" (often the targets' entire families, or even sometimes much of their neighborhood), alongside an objective to destroy much of Gaza to “create a shock”, all on a population that had nowhere to escape. It'll likely remain in history books as one of the most depraved massacres in modern history."

 

 

 

I had no idea who this "+972 Magazine" are. So, I did some research. It's the left of the left in Israel. Sorry if I don't put much confidence into their reporting, especially with a lot of "sources on condition of anonymity" - it's so easy to hide bs behind this statement.

[Optimist Prime]

On 11/29/2023 at 12:34 PM, Taxi said:

 

 My question is that with everything going on, why do people still feel the need to make things up? Israel is involved in a horrible and nasty was in a densely populated urban area. They've likely dropped bombs on all sorts of civilian infrastructure, yet people feel the need to make up stories about Israel purposely attacking hospitals and then won't back down from those stories....why not focus on of the hundreds of civilian targets that were actually destroyed? Thousands of Gazan civilians are dying...but let's make up a story about a kid with broken arms and hands....It's baffling to me. It's like the propaganda industry just can't help itself. 

Dont forget the 500 killed at the hospital that turned out to be a grenade sized rocket from Hamas that injured a dozen cars paintjobs... 

What I mean is that unless there is a database with post mortem photos of the dead Gazans, and there isn't, then I do not trust a single number coming from Gaza about the dead. Their current number still includes '500' killed and 1500 wounded from that grenade sized rocket, which means ALL the numbers are false. Obviously there are dead civilians in Gaza and that is terrible. Hamas shouldn't be hiding behind women and children, or under them, but I doubt substantially the numbers as reported. 

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

I had no idea who this "+972 Magazine" are. So, I did some research. It's the left of the left in Israel. Sorry if I don't put much confidence into their reporting, especially with a lot of "sources on condition of anonymity" - it's so easy to hide bs behind this statement.

wait, the 'indisputable' proof from one of our hockey forum members is a social media link that uses anonymous sources? MY SIDES HURT FROM LAUGHING SO HARD. Well that is all I got for today I think. This thread is starting to crack me up, hilarity was not expected.

 

I didn't bother to click the link and read it as I more or less guessed it was going to be what it ended up being: nothing. 

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, Boudrias said:

When the USA took Bin Laden out how many others were killed. All I heard was cheers. Hamas uses human shields and the Israelis realize that. Not one IDF soldier should be put at risk in any of their missions.  

IMHAO there are IDF soldiers who put their lives at serious risk to keep from harming the innocent. What those soldiers are doing (ridding Gaza of the evil that is Hamas) should be commended. 

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

wait, the 'indisputable' proof from one of our hockey forum members is a social media link that uses anonymous sources? MY SIDES HURT FROM LAUGHING SO HARD. Well that is all I got for today I think. This thread is starting to crack me up, hilarity was not expected.

 

I didn't bother to click the link and read it as I more or less guessed it was going to be what it ended up being: nothing. 

Imagine what would have happened in our world if social media was available during the day of Hitler or Napoleon? Their propaganda would have been like candy for the weak minded. Sadly, Hamas (supported by Pootin and Iran) are able to spread their twisted message too easily. My Goodness! This is some random hockey chat site and we see the effects of Hamas propaganda here. Hitler and Napoleon would have devoured the minds of so many with this type of platform for their evil. 

[Optimist Prime]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Imagine what would have happened in our world if social media was available during the day of Hitler or Napoleon? Their propaganda would have been like candy for the weak minded. Sadly, Hamas (supported by Pootin and Iran) are able to spread their twisted message too easily. My Goodness! This is some random hockey chat site and we see the effects of Hamas propaganda here. Hitler and Napoleon would have devoured the minds of so many with this type of platform for their evil. 

the bigger things in North America dont stand a chance. people are not only ignorant but willfully want to remain there and only seek out media that confirms their leanings. 
Sad but true, I am not immune either, i am included in the sheeple that I am lamenting. Elections are in a tough situation, and any chance of finding truth is falling to the wayside against TikTok, X and Truth Social (what a juxtaposed name!!)

 

It is only going to get worse as people who have a fact/truth to post are subjected to vitriol and hatred for the facts not matching the wish thinking of the masses....

like earlier in the thread when a guy said he couldn't see the videos that were posted...I described them, nothing more, and was smacked down with some over the top rhetoric, because the fact didn't fit their preconceptions. 

 

We are in for a wild ride, as the information age has given way to the disinformation age. 

[Super19]

Israeli propaganda actually has you guys thinking that 6k+ children haven't been killed in this war...

[Optimist Prime]

7 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Israeli propaganda actually has you guys thinking that 6k+ children haven't been killed in this war...

The number is lower than you think and admittedly higher than I think. We can agree on that at least, right?

[RomanPer]

36 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Israeli propaganda actually has you guys thinking that 6k+ children haven't been killed in this war...

 

It's not "Israeli propaganda", it's something else. It's called "common sense".

[Optimist Prime]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

It’s definitely a lesson in propaganda when reading how information is twisted to shape opinion. 

Propaganda and psy ops were never in my immediate job description, but I did take a course in HUM INT at one point, human intelligence, and used it to great advantage throughout my career. 

The pass/fail point was memorizing a bingo card of things to find out about a target, being driven blind to a random location, being shown an image and some info of the target and dropped off to be left to my own devices until the time of the test expired. Generally found them in a public place and struck up small talk, filled my bingo card mentally in about 30 minutes and exfilled to be picked up. Most people will tell you anything you want with just a few culturally adjusted prompts, if you can engineer a discussion.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

Israeli propaganda actually has you guys thinking that 6k+ children haven't been killed in this war...

 

You have no way of proving that statement.

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

The number is lower than you think and admittedly higher than I think. We can agree on that at least, right?

Maybe, we haven't taken into consideration children not found under the rubble and in critical condition.

[Super19]

58 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

It's not "Israeli propaganda", it's something else. It's called "common sense".

Have you seen Gaza lately? Do you have any idea how many bombs Israel have dropped on one of the most densely populated urban area on earth? Does common sense not tell you that this probably killed too many children?

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

Maybe, we haven't taken into consideration children not found under the rubble and in critical condition.

Meh, close enough, I will take that for agreement finally on something. Enjoy the game, puck drop in 20 mins!

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Have you seen Gaza lately? Do you have any idea how many bombs Israel have dropped on one of the most densely populated urban area on earth? Does common sense not tell you that this probably killed too many children?

Hamas, the evil cowards they are, hide behind, skirts, children, and the sick. 
Why doesn’t Hamas come out and fight? Do they not care at all about the people of Gaza? 

[Super19]

40 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Meh, close enough, I will take that for agreement finally on something. Enjoy the game, puck drop in 20 mins!

Cheers OP. We can set our differences aside for our game. Hope we get to see eye to eye or at least at a closer level one day. If us ITT can do it then so can that region lol

[Super19]

The truce is over. The bombs resume to fall over Gaza again. 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

The truce is over. The bombs resume to fall over Gaza again. 

 

 

Can confirm, the infernal orchestra has stricken a new chord.

[Canuck Surfer]

21 hours ago, Super19 said:

Essentially they confirm, with unimpeachable sourcing, that the killing of civilians was all calculated and intentional.

 

It confirms there is a calculated risk factored in trying to reduce the number of civilian casualties. It does acknowledge that collateral damage occurs.

 

Something we call for Israel to stop.  It does not suggest civilians are intentionally targeted. That is your conclusion.

 

 

Where were you when Muslim civilians, including Palestinian, were killed in Aleppo? At a similar rate, and for a period of nearly 3 years. Resulting in nearly 30 times the death toll, 30 times, of that which has occurred in Gaza since ) Oct 7.  5 and 8 years ago?

 

Where were you when partners of Hamas, rounded up roughly 20,000 Yazidi, also a muslim culture. In Syria & Iraq.  Separated fighting age men. Executed thousands at close range in mass killings.  Took kids as hostages, dispossessed elderly & kept young women as sex slaves. This is true genocide.  Similar death, tactics and scale has this year happened in East Sudan. Bombing of residential area's in Khartoum. Currently near the population of in refugee camps, another 3 million refugees in neighboring countries. Or seeking asylum around the world. Syrian, Turkish, Azerbaijani & Iraqi Kurds displaced, gassed or otherwise murdered 15 & 25 years ago, but still ongoing and another 3,500,00 Kurds displaced. All of these still smaller than death tolls in Yemen.  

 

 

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

It confirms there is a calculated risk factored in trying to reduce the number of civilian casualties. It does acknowledge that collateral damage occurs.

 

Something we call for Israel to stop.  It does not suggest civilians are intentionally targeted. That is your conclusion.

 

 

Where were you when Muslim civilians, including Palestinian, were killed in Aleppo? At a similar rate, and for a period of nearly 3 years. Resulting in nearly 30 times the death toll, 30 times, of that which has occurred in Gaza since ) Oct 7.  5 and 8 years ago?

 

Where were you when partners of Hamas, rounded up roughly 20,000 Yazidi, also a muslim culture. In Syria & Iraq.  Separated fighting age men. Executed thousands at close range in mass killings.  Took kids as hostages, dispossessed elderly & kept young women as sex slaves. This is true genocide.  Similar death, tactics and scale has this year happened in East Sudan. Bombing of residential area's in Khartoum. Currently near the population of in refugee camps, another 3 million refugees in neighboring countries. Or seeking asylum around the world. Syrian, Turkish, Azerbaijani & Iraqi Kurds displaced, gassed or otherwise murdered 15 & 25 years ago, but still ongoing and another 3,500,00 Kurds displaced. All of these still smaller than death tolls in Yemen.  

 

 

In all honesty, when I see that Israel is justified in almost everything they are doing to Palestine, it pains me. To me the oppression is so clear, the atrocities are so clear. Yet Israel has the support from our government and the greenlight from the US to do quite literally, evil things. I can't stand by it. 

[the destroyer of worlds]

Post this one as NY Times is paywalled.

 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-elite-intelligence-unit-saw-signs-hamas-prepared-attack-report-2023-11?r=US&IR=T&utm_source=reddit.com

New report says the IDF's elite intelligence unit saw signs Hamas was preparing a terror attack

 

• A new report says an elite IDF intelligence unit warned that Hamas was practicing for a big attack.
• An officer detailed the extensive drills in July, according to Israeli outlet Channel 12.
• The Hamas exercises reportedly included storming a kibbutz and mass killing.

 

[Super19]

Just effing draw a gosh damn line on the map. A part for Palestine and a part for Israel. And stop being d!cks. Wtf is Israel getting out of this war if not a takeover of Gaza and real destruction of the Palestenian people? It's effed. Their war is just fuelling Hamas, or a form of it, for years and years to come, unless 1) peace happens or 2) genocide happens. 

[Alflives]

44 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Just effing draw a gosh damn line on the map. A part for Palestine and a part for Israel. And stop being d!cks. Wtf is Israel getting out of this war if not a takeover of Gaza and real destruction of the Palestenian people? It's effed. Their war is just fuelling Hamas, or a form of it, for years and years to come, unless 1) peace happens or 2) genocide happens. 

Isn’t there a border and Hamas breached it October 7? What good is a border if Hamas doesn’t respect it? Hamas wants the destruction of Israel. 

[Bob Long]

56 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Just effing draw a gosh damn line on the map. A part for Palestine and a part for Israel. And stop being d!cks. Wtf is Israel getting out of this war if not a takeover of Gaza and real destruction of the Palestenian people? It's effed. Their war is just fuelling Hamas, or a form of it, for years and years to come, unless 1) peace happens or 2) genocide happens. 

 

Maybe groups like Hamas should stop attacking Israel? Maybe accept that Israel has a right to exist?

 

Or keep getting beaten down for 70 more years.

 

Palestinians need leaders that actually care about their own people.