Hamas attacking Israel

[Alflives]

Just now, Super19 said:

There should be an immediete and permanent ceasefire. International community will help broker peace. Why are you so against this?

Hamas needs to be eliminated for there to be peace. These are the same cowards who dug up water pipes to make rockets. They spend billions on tunnels to hide in. Money that should be spent on infrastructure for the people. Israel is sacrificing their soldiers to rid the people of Gaza from Hamas. 

[Bob Long]

24 minutes ago, Super19 said:

There should be an immediete and permanent ceasefire.

 

Agreed. Tell Hamas to stop firing rockets.

 

24 minutes ago, Super19 said:

 

International community will help broker peace. Why are you so against this?

 

I'm not. Iran is. Putin is. Hamas is.

[Bob Long]

Good read here on the damage the left is doing to this situation by embracing Hamas talking points:

 

Dooming any hope for a Palestinian state

A growing fraction of the progressive left is making common cause with some of the worst people on earth.

 

https://inytimes.pressreader.com/article/281672554703771

 

 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

Good read here on the damage the left is doing to this situation by embracing Hamas talking points:

 

Dooming any hope for a Palestinian state

A growing fraction of the progressive left is making common cause with some of the worst people on earth.

 

https://inytimes.pressreader.com/article/281672554703771

 

 

Isn’t it a sad irony that those who (in our western world) talk in favour of Hamas would be dead if Hamas fulfilled their charter if beliefs? I’m thinking there are a lot of people in free democracies (with all our rights and privileges) who don’t truly understand how fortunate they are to not have Hamas ideology in their backyard. 

[Bob Long]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Isn’t it a sad irony that those who (in our western world) talk in favour of Hamas would be dead if Hamas fulfilled their charter if beliefs? I’m thinking there are a lot of people in free democracies (with all our rights and privileges) who don’t truly understand how fortunate they are to not have Hamas ideology in their backyard. 

 

its just an opinion piece, but the authour makes a compelling point imo. All this Hamas support and spreading of talking points is going to do is work to prevent a Palestinian state. And it plays into the Iranian leaders and Putins schemes. 

 

I get it, particularly if you are young and in university, how compelling ideas on the left can be. But they don't understand what they are playing at. 

 

I'm sure I'm going to get a "but the babies" response from Sup, but I hope he takes a minute to actually read the piece. 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

On 12/2/2023 at 6:01 AM, Super19 said:

In all honesty, when I see that Israel is justified in almost everything they are doing to Palestine, it pains me. To me the oppression is so clear, the atrocities are so clear. Yet Israel has the support from our government and the greenlight from the US to do quite literally, evil things. I can't stand by it. 

 

In my mind they are not justified.  For example there should not be 'settler' clashing with farmers. 

 

* Not just because there should not be settlers perpetrating violence?

* Because there should not be settlers. 

 

This stands much stronger in West Bank, single pointedly, because they left Gaza in 2006.  They also left the Sinai Peninsula when truce & commitment to military security was provided by Egypt.  In West Bank they need a multinational peace keeping force; not to rule with the butt end of a gun.  Nor have tolerance, even IDF support for sojourns in to the occupied zones. Yet I believe the occupation itself is required.

 

The occupation necessary due to ongoing terrorist attacks from West Bank. And accumulation of both terrorist, but pre-1967 of national armed forces of Middle Eastern nations for the purposes to attack Israel. Actual terrorist attacks, missile launches, militants taking hostages, blowing up targets. In the past, full scale military invasions. Which is more pronounced than protestors throwing rocks. An international peace force, joint Palestinian AND Israeli police force internally. IDF at borders, airports, security checkpoints.  However there HAS to be both a normalcy to Palestinian lives, contribution to their own control, investment in restocking the viability of life. A Palestinian govt. committed to the rule of law, disarming terrorists in return for peace.

 

Multicultural, not exclusive zones.  I'll speak more on this another day.  

 

That said? If you were Israel, and you were the military power. You would not stand by while terrorist attacks took place.  Imagine Mexican gangs in Tijuana launching missiles from rooftops over the border to the suburbs of San Diego. Coming through the tunnels, they are there too, sneaking babies as hostages to have their violent protesters returned.  I'll repeat, a Palestinian govt committed to the rule of law, disarming terrorists in return for peace.

 

Clearly, also an Israeli govt that has a more tolerant, not sure the word, progressive view? Will allow life in proximity, not bow to extremists within their own world. 

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

44 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

Good read here on the damage the left is doing to this situation by embracing Hamas talking points:

 

Dooming any hope for a Palestinian state

A growing fraction of the progressive left is making common cause with some of the worst people on earth.

 

https://inytimes.pressreader.com/article/281672554703771

 

 

The Palestinian state died for at least the current generation when the Palestinian people chose not to condemn the Oct 7th Hamas attack and instead has supported Hamas to some degree. While im sure there are many Palestinians who dont like Hamas and dont support their actions, by remaining silent they have chosen not to stand up for themselves and allowed them to be lumped in with those who do support Hamas and their actions. While I understand that speaking up would be dangerous for them, once that attack happened, in order to distance themselves from Hamas they needed to speak up. Since they didnt, Israel has to consider the population as hostile in their hunt for Hamas.

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

The Palestinian state died for at least the current generation when the Palestinian people chose not to condemn the Oct 7th Hamas attack and instead has supported Hamas to some degree. While im sure there are many Palestinians who dont like Hamas and dont support their actions, by remaining silent they have chosen not to stand up for themselves and allowed them to be lumped in with those who do support Hamas and their actions. While I understand that speaking up would be dangerous for them, once that attack happened, in order to distance themselves from Hamas they needed to speak up. Since they didnt, Israel has to consider the population as hostile in their hunt for Hamas.

 

they just so desperately need leaders that actually want to build a peaceful state. They've been pawns in others game for so long now maybe its hard for them to know what real leadership is?

 

[Alflives]

12 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

The Palestinian state died for at least the current generation when the Palestinian people chose not to condemn the Oct 7th Hamas attack and instead has supported Hamas to some degree. While im sure there are many Palestinians who dont like Hamas and dont support their actions, by remaining silent they have chosen not to stand up for themselves and allowed them to be lumped in with those who do support Hamas and their actions. While I understand that speaking up would be dangerous for them, once that attack happened, in order to distance themselves from Hamas they needed to speak up. Since they didnt, Israel has to consider the population as hostile in their hunt for Hamas.

Don’t people who voice dissent (opinions against Hamas) get brutalized and their families harmed too? 

[Optimist Prime]

Just a quick thought: 'ending apartheid' or a 'two state solution' both have massive consequences in dead Israeli's. Ending apartheid would take us back to the daily bus bombings and VBIED attacks randomly occurring everywhere in Israel by the terrorist faction withing Gaza/and to a lesser extent the West Bank. The so called "two state' solution has many drawbacks: does Gaza stay part of the new West Bank nation which i am guessing would call itself Palestine? That really never works, having a nation exist in two places with another nation in between it. If only Gaza is the new nation, that seems like a bad idea to me seeing as who is in charge there and how high the support for them is among the civilian population. If the new nation is only West Bank, I don't think it would take long before the West Bank declared war on Israel, pretty much however long it would take to breed a new army and smuggle in enough weapons. Staying with the status quo is not a good option either. I think Israel is in a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation where the only real option for Israel is to remove the belligerents from the board. Perhaps once this operation to subdue the terrorists in Gaza is complete, more peaceful Gazans will come to rule the people and make some headway towards a permanent peace, but that can't happen while Hamas is still in charge, so step one: remove Hamas. Step Two: meaningful dialogue towards future peace on a full time basis. Hopefully the other Arab Nations keep coming to the table to sign treaties with Israel as that will go a long way to informing Gaza they have no chance of defeating Israel and her allies. I feel terrible re-watching video of the dancing and singing and praising Allah that went on the morning of Oct 7th in Gaza. Those poor souls had no real understanding of what they were about to experience. That is on the UNRWA hierarchy for allowing Hamas to infiltrate their organization so thoroughly. The UN School that was made into a weapons factory for instance....should have been educating Gazans all this time instead.  

[Yoshiyoshi]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

they just so desperately need leaders that actually want to build a peaceful state. They've been pawns in others game for so long now maybe its hard for them to know what real leadership is?

 

There are no leaders who want peace there right now. No one is willing to step up, they just flock to which ever wanna be warlord who has more power than them. Its like how in Afghanistan the people the US backed completely folded after the US pulled out. They werent willing to fight for the freedom the US tried to give them.A real free nation is backed by the people and the institutions created in the nation. If the people in those institutions give up so easily then the people will give up and that freedom disappears. Its why the US attempt to force freedom on Iraq and Afghanistan ended up as mostly a failure in the end. Palestine has no future until the people there give up on violence to achieve their goals. They dont have the tools to win that way.

 

 

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Don’t people who voice dissent (opinions against Hamas) get brutalized and their families harmed too? 

Probably, but Gaza isnt Russia, Hamas isnt everywhere and they dont control everything. In the end the people of a nation are responsible for the actions of their leaders, there are points where you either speak out and oppose them, or become complicit in their crimes. On Oct 7th, anyone who didnt support Hamas attack once they learned of it should have been pretty clear what was going to happen in retaliation for it. If they werent willing to speak up they should have at least been running away as far as they could get from Hamas before the IDF ordered the evacuation of Gaza. There are times where it is ok to keep silent to avoid danger. But there are also times where continuing to keep silent is just going to make things worse. There were lots of people saying that Israel should have found another way other than their invasion of Gaza, but how could there be another way when no one speaks up. Even if they dont speak out loud, they could call up the IDF and give intel on Hamas positions and help people evacuate(maybe some have done that, who knows). Im rambling here trying to explain what im thinking and going in circles and still not getting the point im trying to make across in a manner im happy with so im just gonna stop here.

[Bob Long]

47 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

There are no leaders who want peace there right now. No one is willing to step up, they just flock to which ever wanna be warlord who has more power than them. Its like how in Afghanistan the people the US backed completely folded after the US pulled out. They werent willing to fight for the freedom the US tried to give them.A real free nation is backed by the people and the institutions created in the nation. If the people in those institutions give up so easily then the people will give up and that freedom disappears. Its why the US attempt to force freedom on Iraq and Afghanistan ended up as mostly a failure in the end. Palestine has no future until the people there give up on violence to achieve their goals. They dont have the tools to win that way.

 

 

Probably, but Gaza isnt Russia, Hamas isnt everywhere and they dont control everything. In the end the people of a nation are responsible for the actions of their leaders, there are points where you either speak out and oppose them, or become complicit in their crimes. On Oct 7th, anyone who didnt support Hamas attack once they learned of it should have been pretty clear what was going to happen in retaliation for it. If they werent willing to speak up they should have at least been running away as far as they could get from Hamas before the IDF ordered the evacuation of Gaza. There are times where it is ok to keep silent to avoid danger. But there are also times where continuing to keep silent is just going to make things worse. There were lots of people saying that Israel should have found another way other than their invasion of Gaza, but how could there be another way when no one speaks up. Even if they dont speak out loud, they could call up the IDF and give intel on Hamas positions and help people evacuate(maybe some have done that, who knows). Im rambling here trying to explain what im thinking and going in circles and still not getting the point im trying to make across in a manner im happy with so im just gonna stop here.

 

We've never seen a Gaza invasion quite like this ... I hope it moves them to better leader choices. But that's probably naive. 

 

We will probably see Hamas donation boxes on campus.

[RomanPer]

5 hours ago, Super19 said:

There should be an immediete and permanent ceasefire. International community will help broker peace. Why are you so against this?

Because “international community” has no means of “brokering peace” for variety of reasons. If it was so easy, why didn’t they “broker peace” in the last 75 years?

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Because “international community” has no means of “brokering peace” for variety of reasons. If it was so easy, why didn’t they “broker peace” in the last 75 years?

 

Isn't Iran part of the international community?

[Super19]

38 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Because “international community” has no means of “brokering peace” for variety of reasons. If it was so easy, why didn’t they “broker peace” in the last 75 years?

That's because it's on Israel to hold itself accountable first for all the crap they've done to palestenians the past few decades. Once Israel is willing to make reparations and stop oppressing, then peace can be found. But that's never going to happen is it? Israel might be the most powerful nation on earth that can get away with literal war crimes and not to mention decades of bullying the Palestenians, treating them as subhuman. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

That's because it's on Israel to hold itself accountable first for all the crap they've done to palestenians the past few decades. Once Israel is willing to make reparations and stop oppressing, then peace can be found. But that's never going to happen is it? Israel might be the most powerful nation on earth that can get away with literal war crimes and not to mention decades of bullying the Palestenians, treating them as subhuman. 

Sorry fellow Canuck fan, but Hamas is the problem. Once Hamas is eliminated then the people of Gaza can be free. 

[Bob Long]

20 minutes ago, Super19 said:

That's because it's on Israel to hold itself accountable first for all the crap they've done to palestenians the past few decades. Once Israel is willing to make reparations and stop oppressing, then peace can be found. But that's never going to happen is it? Israel might be the most powerful nation on earth that can get away with literal war crimes and not to mention decades of bullying the Palestenians, treating them as subhuman. 

 

Who tells you this is a reasonable take?

 

[Super19]

12 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Who tells you this is a reasonable take?

 

Why is saying no to a ceasefire a reasonable take?

Why is not condemning illegal settlements a reasonable take?

Why is supporting a collective punishment a reasonable take?

Why is dehumanizing and humiliating Palestenians a reasonable take?

Edited December 3, 2023 by Super19

[Super19]

34 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Sorry fellow Canuck fan, but Hamas is the problem. Once Hamas is eliminated then the people of Gaza can be free. 

How do you eliminate an ideology through a brutal bombing campaign? That many are calling genocide.

 

 

[Super19]

These "safe zones" sent via QR codes and falling leaflets are abhorrent.

How will Palestenians get there in time?

How will Palestenians be assured they will be able to return to their homes after?

Is there the right infrastructure and food to support all these Palestenians filtering into an even smaller zone? There places to go sure is getting tight.

What if Israeli intel gets the word that Hamas is now hiding in the designated safe zone?

[RomanPer]

57 minutes ago, Super19 said:

That's because it's on Israel to hold itself accountable first for all the crap they've done to palestenians the past few decades. Once Israel is willing to make reparations and stop oppressing, then peace can be found. But that's never going to happen is it? Israel might be the most powerful nation on earth that can get away with literal war crimes and not to mention decades of bullying the Palestenians, treating them as subhuman. 

Lol. This is the date and time when I stopped taking you seriously.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

Why is saying no to a ceasefire a reasonable take?

Why is not condemning illegal settlements a reasonable take?

Why is supporting a collective punishment a reasonable take?

Why is dehumanizing and humiliating Palestenians a reasonable take?

 

Now do Hamas.

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

Now do Hamas.

He seems to think allowing Hamas to continue to exist is a reasonable option.

[Bob Long]

Just now, King Heffy said:

He seems to think allowing Hamas to continue to exist is a reasonable option.

 

That's clear.

[Alflives]

58 minutes ago, Super19 said:

How do you eliminate an ideology through a brutal bombing campaign? That many are calling genocide.

 

 

Again, my apologies fellow Canucks’ fan but Hamas is evil and must be eliminated. Only then can the good people of Gaza be free. You may believe otherwise, and that’s okay. But I know what must be done. And that’s the total annihilation of the Hamas cowards. When these cowards, who steal from the good people of Gaza, who hide behind women, children, and the hospitalized are eliminated then Gaza will be free. And then it will be built into a prosperous region.