Hamas attacking Israel

[Zfetch]

None of this would have happened if the great Shahanshah of Iran wasn't exiled in 1979, leading to the death of "peace" in the middle east... 

[Ilunga]

54 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Oh, boy, Joseph Goebbels would have a field day with you and others like you... I'm sure he would give you plenty of "angels" to look at Nazi Germany "from all sides". I'm sure you would find some of them quite appealing.

 

I watched Race a few nights ago.

It's the Jesse Owens story. 

There were a few interesting facts I didn't know. 

There were a couple of Jewish Americans on the team.

Because of his ties to Nazi Germany Goebbels basically blackmailed the head of the US team into not letting them race.

 

Also when Jesse got to the Games village he asked, where are the coloured persons quarters, he was told there were none, all athletes stayed together, unlike the US.

When he got home with his four gold medals, he and his coach went to go into a hotel where they were holding a dinner in his honour, he was told to go in the back door. 

 

Also the German athlete he competed against in the long jump, Luz Long went out of his way to support Jesse.

As Jesse stated later in life 

 

" It must have taken him a lot of courage for him to befriend me "

" You can melt down all the medals and cups I have and they wouldn't be a plating on the 24 carat friendship I felt for Luz Long at that moment. 

Hitler must have gone crazy watching us embrace "

[Sabrefan1]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

Has it occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, Israel is capable of shameless propaganda and flat out lies? Why was there the need to present old photographs of deceased Kurdish and portray them as Israeli victims from the music festival?? 

 

 

 

Has it occurred to you that I was telling the truth about not knowing squat about the media site that posted that story.

 

I didn't write it.  I'm not a news reporter.

 

I leave it to the adults on this forum to figure out whether they want to believe what someone writes or not.  I'm not here to hold anybody's hand and/or to convince them to believe what I do or do not believe. 

 

Many here cannot say the same.  They prefer to protect and defend their opinions and feelings at any and all costs.

[Super19]

6 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

 

Has it occurred to you that I was telling the truth about not knowing squat about the media site that posted that story.

 

I didn't write it.  I'm not a news reporter.

 

I leave it to the adults on this forum to figure out whether they want to believe what someone writes or not.  I'm not here to hold anybody's hand and/or to convince them to believe what I do or do not believe. 

 

Many here cannot say the same.  They prefer to protect and defend their opinions and feelings at any and all costs.

Sorry, I really didn't mean to come across as hostile towards you.

 

I suspect there is and has been a lot of misinformation going around surrounding the events of Oct 7. What did and didn't happen that day? It needs to be investigated thoroughly. For it has brought forth a genocidal wrath that the West is supporting. In any case, the response to Oct 7 has been criminal. That much is certain.

Journalists, humanitarian and aid workers, and people around the world are willing to risk their lives to document the events and help the Palestenian people but are being barred from entry by Israel, all while Palestenians are being slaughtered by Israel. Civillian infrastructure is being targeted. Children are dying. The land is rubble and sand. Homes are being destroyed. Entire families killed. Children orphaned. Mothers and fathers holding their dead children, or trying to find them lost under the rubble. The population being told to evacuate and assimilate into smaller and smaller zones - just to be bombed anyway. Do some people really not see what is going on? How can anyone support what Israel is doing right now? How do we have people caring for the IDF soldiers and dehumanizing the Palestenians?

 

The hypocrisy is on another level.

[Canuck Surfer]

On 12/3/2023 at 3:55 PM, Super19 said:

Hamas leadership isn't even in Gaza. 

 

To get rid of Hamas you have to accept that at their core they are a resistance to Israeli oppression. If this narrative isn't accepted, then the Palestenian fate is doomed and there is no point for discussion

 

Please tell me Islamic militants have respect and tolerance for other people and cultures? 

 

 

 

The everyday Hamas tunnel digger is like the subject of this short video.  A guy sticks a gun at his head, ''come with me?'' He has to pack explosives that destroyed a Unesco world heritage site 1500 years old. No choice.

 

Then fellows get paid to haul arms. Make more money than they can in Gaza's streets, or businesses. It becomes their survival.  

 

Funny; there are not many Buddhists in Palestine.  How about in the holy land? 

 

 

[the destroyer of worlds]

So we had a user post an infographic that 4100 children had been killed.  Gets criticism that it was Gazan data.   User who criticised gets asked for his number and source. 

 

Crickets.

 

 

UN numbers put deaths of women and children in a similar range to the infographic that was shared. 

 

Now we have Israeli sources reporting deaths of women and children that also support the info in the infograph.

 

Ooops

 

 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/

IDF officials: 15,000 likely killed in Gaza since start of war, 5,000 of them are Hamas

[Yoshiyoshi]

2 hours ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

So we had a user post an infographic that 4100 children had been killed.  Gets criticism that it was Gazan data.   User who criticised gets asked for his number and source. 

 

Crickets.

 

 

UN numbers put deaths of women and children in a similar range to the infographic that was shared. 

 

Now we have Israeli sources reporting deaths of women and children that also support the info in the infograph.

 

Ooops

 

 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/

IDF officials: 15,000 likely killed in Gaza since start of war, 5,000 of them are Hamas

I just read that article, no where does it mention women or children. Not saying your orignal statement was incorrect but it does not back your statement either. What it does say is that somewhere under 10k of them were civilian casualties but it does not break it down by gender or age. I believe someone earlier in the thread said that the demographics of Gaza had like 40-50% of the population is being children (under 18) so I wouldnt be surprised if your 4100 number was fairly accurate. As to the criticism to Gaza based data sources, that criticism is a result of Hamas penetration of those organizations that has been noted and called out before this conflict started by various people so even if they post truthful data, they arent reliable so wont be trusted without a more reputable source backing them up (like the IDF in this case with your posted article.)

[Super19]

16 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I just read that article, no where does it mention women or children. Not saying your orignal statement was incorrect but it does not back your statement either. What it does say is that somewhere under 10k of them were civilian casualties but it does not break it down by gender or age. I believe someone earlier in the thread said that the demographics of Gaza had like 40-50% of the population is being children (under 18) so I wouldnt be surprised if your 4100 number was fairly accurate. As to the criticism to Gaza based data sources, that criticism is a result of Hamas penetration of those organizations that has been noted and called out before this conflict started by various people so even if they post truthful data, they arent reliable so wont be trusted without a more reputable source backing them up (like the IDF in this case with your posted article.)

They're not casualties, they are Palestenian men women and children killed by the IDF. 

[the destroyer of worlds]

24 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I just read that article, no where does it mention women or children. Not saying your orignal statement was incorrect but it does not back your statement either. What it does say is that somewhere under 10k of them were civilian casualties but it does not break it down by gender or age. I believe someone earlier in the thread said that the demographics of Gaza had like 40-50% of the population is being children (under 18) so I wouldnt be surprised if your 4100 number was fairly accurate. As to the criticism to Gaza based data sources, that criticism is a result of Hamas penetration of those organizations that has been noted and called out before this conflict started by various people so even if they post truthful data, they arent reliable so wont be trusted without a more reputable source backing them up (like the IDF in this case with your posted article.)

It's a simple math problem.  They say that 10k civilians, which includes CHILDREN, were killed.  What is 40 - 50% of that?  Hell, even at 33% that puts the number over 3K children.  3K and 4100 are pretty similar, right?

 

Again, if you feel that 4100 is grossly exaggerated, then provide us with an actual number from an actual source that you accept.

[Yoshiyoshi]

4 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

It's a simple math problem.  They say that 10k civilians, which includes CHILDREN, were killed.  What is 40 - 50% of that?  Hell, even at 33% that puts the number over 3K children.  3K and 4100 are pretty similar, right?

 

Again, if you feel that 4100 is grossly exaggerated, then provide us with an actual number from an actual source that you accept.

Stop putting words in peoples mouths. I literally agreed that your estimate was probably accurate in my post. Right now you are just being belligerent towards posters that dont agree with you. If you are going to respond to me at least respond to MY post, and if you want to respond to someone else in the same post, quote them first. It is really annoying when people quote you and then respond to someone elses post.

[the destroyer of worlds]

7 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Stop putting words in peoples mouths. I literally agreed that your estimate was probably accurate in my post. Right now you are just being belligerent towards posters that dont agree with you. If you are going to respond to me at least respond to MY post, and if you want to respond to someone else in the same post, quote them first. It is really annoying when people quote you and then respond to someone elses post.

 

You say:

 

"I just read that article, no where does it mention women or children. Not saying your orignal statement was incorrect but it does not back your statement either."

 

You also bring up the demographics in the post.  You also bring up how Hamas data cannot be trusted.

 

My response was to that.  I really don't care if you agree with what I post or not.  I rarely get emotional towards posters, unless they go hard into personal mudslinging.  

 

I don't post all that often in this thread, for the very reason that it is a very polarized here, with each very polarized party slinging mud at the other.  

 

My position is if you wish to criticize my posts, or refute them, then bring actual data and sources to the fray.  Don't like the data that is being presented, provide your alternative.

 

This part isn't just directed to you.  It is directed to the posters in this thread at large.

 

If the value isn't in the 3000 - 4000 range (or higher), then what is the range?  Sources please.

 

[Super19]

21 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Stop putting words in peoples mouths. I literally agreed that your estimate was probably accurate in my post. Right now you are just being belligerent towards posters that dont agree with you. If you are going to respond to me at least respond to MY post, and if you want to respond to someone else in the same post, quote them first. It is really annoying when people quote you and then respond to someone elses post.

You do realize that in recent past wars and conflicts the death tolls coming out of Gaza were accurate? So why is this time any different?

 

Infact many experts believe the numbers reported are LESS than what they really are right now.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Super19

[Yoshiyoshi]

2 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

 

You say:

 

"I just read that article, no where does it mention women or children. Not saying your orignal statement was incorrect but it does not back your statement either."

 

You also bring up the demographics in the post.  You also bring up how Hamas data cannot be trusted.

 

My response was to that.  I really don't care if you agree with what I post or not.  I rarely get emotional towards posters, unless they go hard into personal mudslinging.  

 

I don't post all that often in this thread, for the very reason that it is a very polarized here, with each very polarized party slinging mud at the other.  

 

My position is if you wish to criticize my posts, or refute them, then bring actual data and sources to the fray.  Don't like the data that is being presented, provide your alternative.

 

This part isn't just directed to you.  It is directed to the posters in this thread at large.

 

If the value isn't in the 3000 - 4000 range (or higher), then what is the range?  Sources please.

 

Alright ill let it lie here then

3 minutes ago, Super19 said:

You do realize that in recent past wars and conflicts the death tolls coming out of Gaza were accurate? So why is this time any different?

 

Infact many experts believe the numbers reported are LESS than what they really are right now.

It doesnt matter if they are accurate or not, what matters is the source is compromised and unreliable. While these numbers currently being discussed are probably reasonably accurate, there have been other claims from them which have been shown to be false(500 dead in the rocket strike on a hosptial ring any bells?). A reliable source should not post anything until they have confirmed it to a reasonable degree of reliability, and should also not have a history of posting information that turns out to be false. If they do post something false at some point they also apologize and admit their error. Ok im done with this stuff now, someone else can take over if the discussion about sources is to continue.

[Super19]

2 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Alright ill let it lie here then

It doesnt matter if they are accurate or not, what matters is the source is compromised and unreliable. While these numbers currently being discussed are probably reasonably accurate, there have been other claims from them which have been shown to be false(500 dead in the rocket strike on a hosptial ring any bells?). A reliable source should not post anything until they have confirmed it to a reasonable degree of reliability, and should also not have a history of posting information that turns out to be false. If they do post something false at some point they also apologize and admit their error. Ok im done with this stuff now, someone else can take over if the discussion about sources is to continue.

Numbers from Gaza Health Ministry should be good to go. Not much was disproven from that one hospital bombing, US intel had the numbers up to 300 and the Ministry had it to under 500. The Ministry have also said its hard to provide minute by minute updates  also due to the lack of resources now and the continued heavy bombing it makes the confirmed totals even harder to do.

 

Numbers from the militant wing of Hamas claiming x amount of Israeli soldiers were killed can be up for debate tho. Especially as IDF takes a lot of time to report their soldiers deaths - if at all up till now. But not from the Ministry. Like I previously said, the death toll is likely LESS than the actual reported for the Palestenians killed.

 

All you're doing is denying the reality of the situation when you dismiss the numbers from the authority. 

 

And the part in bold applies to Israel more than you'd like to ever admit.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Super19

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Super19 said:

Numbers from Gaza Health Ministry should be good to go. Not much was disproven from that one hospital bombing, US intel had the numbers up to 300 and the Ministry had it to under 500. The Ministry have also said its hard to provide minute by minute updates  also due to the lack of resources now and the continued heavy bombing it makes the confirmed totals even harder to do.

 

Numbers from the militant wing of Hamas claiming x amount of Israeli soldiers were killed can be up for debate tho. But not from the Ministry. Like I previously said, the death toll is likely LESS than the actual reported.

 

All you're doing is denying the reality of the situation when you dismiss the numbers from the authority. 

 

And the part in bold applies to Israel more than you'd like to ever admit.

The good news is the IDF is definitely eliminating Hamas. That’s what’s most important. 

[RinkonRenfrew]

On 12/4/2023 at 10:26 AM, Super19 said:

I edited my post to include a graphic. 3,700 Yemeni children killed from 2015-22. Horrible yes. But no one is cheering on their oppressors. And not as horrible as 4,100 Gazan children killed in 30 days + Israel getting all the support doing it.

 

Palestenians have had no army. No govt. No proper citizenship. All whilst fighting for basic freedoms like food, fuel, water and trying to keep their homes from illegal occupation. They can be taken prisoners without a trial. They've been highly oppressed. No one can come in or out of Gaza. Gazans can't even wade too far off in the ocean to swim or fish. Otherwise Israel has the greenlight to shoot em down or imprison them. 

I’m fully with you that the citizens of gaza are suffering and it’s not right. No people should suffer as they are, but many many do.  We have elevated media coverage on this suffering - and i would argue there are so many more in this world who deserve our support and sympathy.

 

Palestinians, Israelis - I’ve heard if them, so maybe that’s why we get that coverage. Ahmarans, Tigrayans, Uighurs, Massalit, Houthis - someone find  Myanmar on a map.  So many more. 

 

It is horrible that Israel feels/has to respond with the force they’re using in a civilian zone. They genuinely seem to be trying to move civilians away from the conflict zone with pamphlets and phone calls to avoid collateral damage. maybe not enough, but we aren’t anyone to judge.  They’re not targeting civilians. Not raping or kidnapping. Sure, we all wish harm could be reduced and of course there are aholes who abuse their power.

 

My point simply is that the Idf has a job to do to respond to one of the most brutal and cruel attacks recorded in recent times. They are human, justifiably angry, and dealing with a horrible situation the best they can. 
 

Both sides are guilty of not creating a peaceful resolution where all people can live in peace and prosper. That is sad and is a noble goal to work towards. However, the reality of the current situation is that Israel has a duty to it’s citizens to incapacitate Hamas as best as can be achieved.  I agree, violence isn’t the long term solution to peace, yet it is clearly the most obvious short term solution.

 

Hamas is dug in within and under a dense civilian population. As horrible as it is to have an armed conflict on this battlefield, i don’t see much of a realistic alternative that isn’t incredibly naive. 
 

Every conflict around the world brings horrible suffering. This one could be much worse if ‘genocide’ or ‘ethnic cleansing’ were the goals. There is some restraint displayed by the idf and that should be commended.

 

If Hamas wanted to end the suffering of Palestinians they could fight in the open away from the population or surrender.   If Palestinians want to be free, they need to first renounce the terrorism they’ve allowed to fester among their population.

 

There is no easy way forward.

 

 

 

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

I’m fully with you that the citizens of gaza are suffering and it’s not right. No people should suffer as they are, but many many do.  We have elevated media coverage on this suffering - and i would argue there are so many more in this world who deserve our support and sympathy.

 

Palestinians, Israelis - I’ve heard if them, so maybe that’s why we get that coverage. Ahmarans, Tigrayans, Uighurs, Massalit, Houthis - someone find  Myanmar on a map.  So many more. 

 

It is horrible that Israel feels/has to respond with the force they’re using in a civilian zone. They genuinely seem to be trying to move civilians away from the conflict zone with pamphlets and phone calls to avoid collateral damage. maybe not enough, but we aren’t anyone to judge.  They’re not targeting civilians. Not raping or kidnapping. Sure, we all wish harm could be reduced and of course there are aholes who abuse their power.

 

My point simply is that the Idf has a job to do to respond to one of the most brutal and cruel attacks recorded in recent times. They are human, justifiably angry, and dealing with a horrible situation the best they can. 
 

Both sides are guilty of not creating a peaceful resolution where all people can live in peace and prosper. That is sad and is a noble goal to work towards. However, the reality of the current situation is that Israel has a duty to it’s citizens to incapacitate Hamas as best as can be achieved.  I agree, violence isn’t the long term solution to peace, yet it is clearly the most obvious short term solution.

 

Hamas is dug in within and under a dense civilian population. As horrible as it is to have an armed conflict on this battlefield, i don’t see much of a realistic alternative that isn’t incredibly naive. 
 

Every conflict around the world brings horrible suffering. This one could be much worse if ‘genocide’ or ‘ethnic cleansing’ were the goals. There is some restraint displayed by the idf and that should be commended.

 

If Hamas wanted to end the suffering of Palestinians they could fight in the open away from the population or surrender.   If Palestinians want to be free, they need to first renounce the terrorism they’ve allowed to fester among their population.

 

There is no easy way forward.

 

 

 

 

Great post. Hamas, as you say, could come out and fight. But these are proven cowards. They attack those who can’t fight back: the elderly, women and toddlers. Then they hide behind skirts, the Ill in hospital, and very young children. Hamas is a cowardly and evil ent that must be eliminated so the good people of Gaza can have freedom. 

[RinkonRenfrew]

Just now, Alflives said:

Great post. Hamas, as you say, could come out and fight. But these are proven cowards. They attack those who can’t fight back: the elderly, women and toddlers. Then they hide behind skirts, the Ill in hospital, and very young children. Hamas is a cowardly and evil ent that must be eliminated so the good people of Gaza can have freedom. 

If Hamas were to move away from their human shields, they’d be wiped out in an afternoon. I get why they don’t, but they are the cause of this suffering. There is no one else to blame. 

[Bob Long]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Great post. Hamas, as you say, could come out and fight. But these are proven cowards. They attack those who can’t fight back: the elderly, women and toddlers. Then they hide behind skirts, the Ill in hospital, and very young children. Hamas is a cowardly and evil ent that must be eliminated so the good people of Gaza can have freedom. 

 

Said it before, Gaza needs it's Nelson Mandela.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Said it before, Gaza needs it's Nelson Mandela.

Hamas, the evil bastards, would through Mandela off a roof. The IDF need to continue their campaign to kill all the rats. 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Hamas, the evil bastards, would through Mandela off a roof. The IDF need to continue their campaign to kill all the rats. 

 

They do, but when it's over they need someone who can lead them through the anger to a real state.

 

Infantilizing Palestinians and expecting the rest of the world to build them a society will never work.

[RinkonRenfrew]

8 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

They do, but when it's over they need someone who can lead them through the anger to a real state.

 

Infantilizing Palestinians and expecting the rest of the world to build them a society will never work.

it seems clear they need a champion who can lead them from hate to equality. We can all wish it happened years ago, but it didn’t. Their only hope for peace and prosperity is someone who has lived through this that can help find a way forward. We should all be looking for, and supporting all candidates who emerge.  
 

I’m hopeful peace and prosperity finds a foothold from this. Our role as privileged outsiders shouldn’t be to condemn, but to raise up those who can bring reconciliation and a just path forward.

[RinkonRenfrew]

9 minutes ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

it seems clear they need a champion who can lead them from hate to equality. We can all wish it happened years ago, but it didn’t. Their only hope for peace and prosperity is someone who has lived through this that can help find a way forward. We should all be looking for, and supporting all candidates who emerge.  
 

I’m hopeful peace and prosperity finds a foothold from this. Our role as privileged outsiders shouldn’t be to condemn, but to raise up those who can bring reconciliation and a just path forward.

I never wanted to post in this thread. I’ve been watching since the start and have appreciated the curated twitter news feed. It’s been so toxic. my side vs…

 

It just seemed to be time though.  It’s become polarized and the ‘pro palestine’ ‘pro hamas’ ‘anti semite’ dialogue has become blurred.  

 

@Super19, i don’t think you’re an anti semite. Sorry if you inferred that.

 

I don’t think that the my-side vs your-side arguments make any sense. I fully understand that though when someone feels their position is attacked.  

 

I hope you direct your energy to a way forward, rather than kicking mud in the puddle of blame. You’re an intelligent articulate poster. Please be better and help heal, rather than divide.

Edited December 6, 2023 by RinkonRenfrew

[King Heffy]

30 minutes ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

it seems clear they need a champion who can lead them from hate to equality. We can all wish it happened years ago, but it didn’t. Their only hope for peace and prosperity is someone who has lived through this that can help find a way forward. We should all be looking for, and supporting all candidates who emerge.  
 

I’m hopeful peace and prosperity finds a foothold from this. Our role as privileged outsiders shouldn’t be to condemn, but to raise up those who can bring reconciliation and a just path forward.

How about Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of a Hamas leader who has spoken out against the tactics of Hamas?

Edited December 6, 2023 by King Heffy

[RinkonRenfrew]

10 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

How about Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of a Hamas leader who has spoken out the tactics of Hamas?

I would argue our energy should be spent spreading any moderate voice that could promote peace. i’m not very familiar with him other than maybe a post or two earlier in this thread.

 

Sounds like a worthwhile voice though.

 

Only way we as a group can do anything to reduce violence is to support moderate voices i think. 

 

Extremes only lead to polarization and more violence.

Edited December 6, 2023 by RinkonRenfrew