Hamas attacking Israel

[the destroyer of worlds]

At least they only wounded the man.  Didn't add to the 250+ Palestinians killed in the West Bank and East Jerusalem since Oct 7th.  

 

Isn't it Gaza where the problems are?  

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/mentally-disabled-man-shot-west-bank/index.html

 

Video shows man in military fatigues shooting mentally disabled Palestinian in West Bank

[Super19]

4 hours ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

I’m fully with you that the citizens of gaza are suffering and it’s not right. No people should suffer as they are, but many many do.

Agreed.

4 hours ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

We have elevated media coverage on this suffering - and i would argue there are so many more in this world who deserve our support and sympathy.

DISCLAIMER: This is shaping up to be a long reply. *I want to challenge your views.*

 

The elevated media coverage serves a purpose to serve the best interests of Israel and the West, rather than to respect and support journalism.

1) there is indeed an elevated media coverage BUT willing media and willing journalists are barred from entering Gaza to actually do their job and report. Major red flags.

Israel allowed the BBC as one of two outlets allowed to report on al-Shifa hospital, and the BBC were told by Israel when and where they could report. Red flag.

2) The West has made its choice. We are aligning ourselves with Israel. The West supports Israels right to defend themselves. The West is not agnostic in this event. The West is supporting, funding, and arming Israel. The US has given the greenlight to Israel! Therefore, the need to cover and be bias when reporting the news is in the West's best interest. The West cannot be portrayed as supporting a genocide. The West is about truth and justice and when the West decides to support a side, it WILL be covered in the news and it WILL be seen as just and truthful.

The problem is that now we have social media. We know about "weapons of mass destruction". We have brave Palestenian journalists in Gaza who have been able to document firsthand what the scenes in Gaza are. We have access to information and leading voices around the world leading us to truly believe the Palestinian people have been oppressed for decades, and right now is a genocide in progress. The world is watching and seeing the disconnects and seeing the hypocrisy and this is leading to a moral outrage around the world. Hundreds of thousands of protesters showed up London a few weeks ago condemning Rishi Sunak when Sunak said "London stands with Israel". Jewish voices are online saying "not in my name".

The elevated media coverage wants you to stay believing in the status quo. It's why views like mine are being seen by some as anti-semetic and terrorist supporter.

 

5 hours ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

 

It is horrible that Israel feels/has to respond with the force they’re using in a civilian zone.

It is horrible that Hamas, an armed Palestenian resistance, were pushed to the brink to carry out Oct 7. Mind you, the events of Oct 7 need to be investigated thoroughly. What did and didn't happen that day?

 

 

5 hours ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

They genuinely seem to be trying to move civilians away from the conflict zone with pamphlets and phone calls to avoid collateral damage. maybe not enough, but we aren’t anyone to judge.

I wholeheartedly disagree. PLEASE watch this ~2min video explaining why I disagree with you here so much.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0e16IWxvBJ/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

5 hours ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

They’re not targeting civilians. Not raping or kidnapping. Sure, we all wish harm could be reduced and of course there are aholes who abuse their power.

Not targetting civillians is a half truth at best. Israel knows the bombs they drop will have civillians in the target. I think its easier to say Israel doesn't give a damn about the civilians. These civillians are not collateral damage. They are not human shields. They are killed. In a collective punishment. You're free to disagree here but this is my opinion.

 

IDF have raped Palestenians before. And you can count imprisoning Palestenians under no trial as kidnapping.

 

5 hours ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

My point simply is that the Idf has a job to do to respond to one of the most brutal and cruel attacks recorded in recent times. They are human, justifiably angry, and dealing with a horrible situation the best they can. 

 

Let's say Oct 7 was the most brutal and cruel attack in recent times. Despite keeping your sentiment in mind (they're human and justifiably angry) Israel has superceded the atrocities of Oct 7 with their response. Astonishing. 

 

But let's backtrack. What happened on Oct 7? What brutality and cruelties do you speak of? *Remember, I am challenging your views* and I am unclear to what atrocities on Oct 7 you subscribe to. 40 beheaded babies? Etc etc.

 

 

5 hours ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

Both sides are guilty of not creating a peaceful resolution where all people can live in peace and prosper. That is sad and is a noble goal to work towards. However, the reality of the current situation is that Israel has a duty to it’s citizens to incapacitate Hamas as best as can be achieved.  I agree, violence isn’t the long term solution to peace, yet it is clearly the most obvious short term solution.

 

Hamas is dug in within and under a dense civilian population. As horrible as it is to have an armed conflict on this battlefield, i don’t see much of a realistic alternative that isn’t incredibly naive. 
 

Every conflict around the world brings horrible suffering. This one could be much worse if ‘genocide’ or ‘ethnic cleansing’ were the goals. There is some restraint displayed by the idf and that should be commended.

 

If Hamas wanted to end the suffering of Palestinians they could fight in the open away from the population or surrender.   If Palestinians want to be free, they need to first renounce the terrorism they’ve allowed to fester among their population.

 

There is no easy way forward.

I more or less agree with you here.

I'll just add Hamas as the resistance group feels the need to fight for Palestenian freedom. And under the sands of Gaza is the best shot they have at it.

 

And the Israeli restraint is minimal at best. YES they are capable of more. But it seems they are just short of seemingly just dropping a nuke on Gaza. I'm sure the hostages still in Gaza is pressuring Israel to not just go full scorched earth on Gaza right now. And of course Israel won't just go full retard and nuke Gaza. But the damge being done right now? Pretty pretty bad.

[Super19]

5 hours ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

I never wanted to post in this thread. I’ve been watching since the start and have appreciated the curated twitter news feed. It’s been so toxic. my side vs…

 

It just seemed to be time though.  It’s become polarized and the ‘pro palestine’ ‘pro hamas’ ‘anti semite’ dialogue has become blurred.  

 

@Super19, i don’t think you’re an anti semite. Sorry if you inferred that.

 

I don’t think that the my-side vs your-side arguments make any sense. I fully understand that though when someone feels their position is attacked.  

 

I hope you direct your energy to a way forward, rather than kicking mud in the puddle of blame. You’re an intelligent articulate poster. Please be better and help heal, rather than divide.

Cheers RoR. You give me far too much credit. I want to help heal. I'm angry at the divide. I don't think there should be this much of a divide. The Palestenian people in Gaza are hurting bad man. Too much hurt. They were hurting before Oct 7 too. IMO the oppressors have been championed and the oppressed have been dehumanized. There needs to be accountability. Yes the Palestinians are guilty in expending all resources and energy in a vengeful fight against Israel for their freedom. But they haven't had much of a chance for progression because of the oppression. They keep getting pushed around and they keep wanting to fight back. Concessions and accountability on both sides need to be made. There should be a 2 state solution.

[Odd.]

On 12/4/2023 at 6:38 PM, Alflives said:

So it’s all made up and just Israeli propaganda? October 7 didn’t happen? 
IMHAO it’s obvious to open thinking minds that Hamas did evil things on October 7. And also IMHAO Hamas has been doing evil things to the Gaza people too. Hamas is evil and (thank you IDF for your sacrifice) will be totally destroyed. Then the people of Gaza will be free. 

Free of Hamas. Then what? Who’s going to help rebuild Gaza? Who’s going to help establish a government? 
 

it’s an apartheid over there. they’re not going to be “free” like you say at every end of your paragraph.

[Canuck Surfer]

I personally would be surprised if 15,000 casualties, including 4000 children among 8,000 or 10,000 civilians were not true. 3500 Hamas?

 

Remember we started with over 1000 Israeli civilian caualties. Hamas started with 5000 missiles in the first day. I've been reading 500 a day strikes by Israel, not including artillery.  That 500 30 or 50 times more deadly per unit. Owing to both size and the technological means of delivery.  

 

I advocated for a much heavier siege of Gaza; seeing Hamas as the primary problem. Israel not without significant blood on their hands.  But I don't agree with this bombing and invasion. 

 

All opinion. 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[StrayDog]

4 hours ago, Super19 said:

 

I'll just add Hamas as the resistance group feels the need to fight for Palestenian freedom.

Since you didn't respond the last time I commented on this I'll repost here:

You keep saying this. The problem I have with a statement like this is the fact that I have never heard of Hamas attacking a military target. I will admit that I do not have a comprehensive list of Hamas attacks, but they seem to have always been against "soft" targets - malls, bus stops, etc (aka places where there are a lot of civilians). If you never attack a "hard" target like the military, police, or any governing institution then you are not a freedom fighter against oppression; you are a terrorist using terror tactics against a civilian population. 

I know your response is going to be about Israels purposefully targeting civilians. But if Hamas is going to hide among civilians, civilians are going to die (civilians will die anyway, it's the nature of war, especially an asymmetrical one, but you don't need to make it even easier for civilians to be killed by hiding among them). I would have more respect for Hamas if they hid in places away from the people they are trying to "liberate" and made raids against Israeli military targets. Then I might believe they truly want Palestinian liberty and peace, and not just death for whoever happens to be standing next to them.

[Canuck Surfer]

Yahya > see 0:57 & 3:57

 

In cold blood & with his own bare hands. Palestinian people, not Israeli, for not following his doctrine.  Most Hamas leaders need their money stolen; for them to show their true face in front of their people. Will start to fight among each other. Turn on their people. This will be the death of Hamas in IMO. Yahya, the exception. His doctrine of hatred and violence will have to be permanently silenced.    

 

 

[Bob Long]

6 hours ago, Odd. said:

Free of Hamas. Then what? Who’s going to help rebuild Gaza? Who’s going to help establish a government? 
 

it’s an apartheid over there. they’re not going to be “free” like you say at every end of your paragraph.

 

How did south Africa do it?

[Taxi]

7 hours ago, Odd. said:

Free of Hamas. Then what? Who’s going to help rebuild Gaza? Who’s going to help establish a government? 
 

it’s an apartheid over there. they’re not going to be “free” like you say at every end of your paragraph.

 

There are already billions of dollars pledged to rebuild Gaza. There are various options in terms of assisting the Palestinians to put a new government into place. What happens next will be up to the Palestinians of Gaza too. If they choose another government like Hamas, we may see the same cycle repeat in 10-20 years, and the Palestinians will be no closer to an independent state.

 

From Israel's perspective they are surrounded by Iran's (and indirectly Russia's) proxy armies. Setting Hamas back 10 years is a massive victory for them and provides them with all sorts of breathing room. That being said, Hamas may not be able to rebuild, as Russia no longer has extra weapons laying around to flood into the region. In fact, Russia has now started drawing significant amounts of weapons out of the region for their own use.

[Super19]

4 hours ago, StrayDog said:

Since you didn't respond the last time I commented on this I'll repost here:

You keep saying this. The problem I have with a statement like this is the fact that I have never heard of Hamas attacking a military target. I will admit that I do not have a comprehensive list of Hamas attacks, but they seem to have always been against "soft" targets - malls, bus stops, etc (aka places where there are a lot of civilians). If you never attack a "hard" target like the military, police, or any governing institution then you are not a freedom fighter against oppression; you are a terrorist using terror tactics against a civilian population. 

I know your response is going to be about Israels purposefully targeting civilians. But if Hamas is going to hide among civilians, civilians are going to die (civilians will die anyway, it's the nature of war, especially an asymmetrical one, but you don't need to make it even easier for civilians to be killed by hiding among them). I would have more respect for Hamas if they hid in places away from the people they are trying to "liberate" and made raids against Israeli military targets. Then I might believe they truly want Palestinian liberty and peace, and not just death for whoever happens to be standing next to them.

From Oct 7 and onwards, Hamas have mainly been hitting military targets while the IDF have mainly been hitting civillian infrastructure. According to Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor, Israel is responsible for damaging 91 mosques and 3 churches. 22 hospitals, 55 clinics, and 46 ambulances. 256 schools. 1040 industrial facilities. 140 press headquarters are damaged or destroyed. Israel has completely destroyed over 59,000 units and partially destroyed 165,000 units. This targetting has led to most recent estimates of just over 20k dead, including 8241 children, 4126 women and 18k civillians. The injured are estimated to be at over 36,000. 67 killed journalists confirmed. And over 1.7million are displaced.

 

Prior to Oct 7 there's been shit on both sides. I too don't know which bus bombings Hamas are responsible for. They are an armed Muslim group, but they aren't ISIS. Both IDF and Hamas have done messed up things, I'm sure.

 

Here is a shocking video from Hamas, showing an Israeli base right on top of what seems to be a Hamas tunnel. No civillian infrastructure in sight. Hamas stated a while ago that they did not have their infrastructure under al-Shifa hospital. You can see the camera poke above the sand and Israeli soldiers at zero range. Hamas claimed 60 Israeli soldiers were killed or injured. This war between Hamas and IDF is indeed a tough one due to the dense urban population contrasted with the open desert.

 

[Super19]

23 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

There are already billions of dollars pledged to rebuild Gaza. There are various options in terms of assisting the Palestinians to put a new government into place. What happens next will be up to the Palestinians of Gaza too. If they choose another government like Hamas, we may see the same cycle repeat in 10-20 years, and the Palestinians will be no closer to an independent state.

 

From Israel's perspective they are surrounded by Iran's (and indirectly Russia's) proxy armies. Setting Hamas back 10 years is a massive victory for them and provides them with all sorts of breathing room. That being said, Hamas may not be able to rebuild, as Russia no longer has extra weapons laying around to flood into the region. In fact, Russia has now started drawing significant amounts of weapons out of the region for their own use.

And Israel. Will Palestenians stay living under Israeli oppression? Will Gaza still be defined as an "open air prison"? Will they continue to be dehumanized? Do Gazans still have to worry about illegal occupation? Treated as second class citizens? Be held in prisons without trials? How much control will there be? More or less than before? How many Gazans will even survive this war or have a home they can go back to?

[Taxi]

7 minutes ago, Super19 said:

And Israel. Will Palestenians stay living under Israeli oppression? Will Gaza still be defined as an "open air prison"? Will they continue to be dehumanized? Do Gazans still have to worry about illegal occupation? Treated as second class citizens? Be held in prisons without trials? How much control will there be? More or less than before? How many Gazans will even survive this war or have a home they can go back to?

 

Israel had started allowing 20,000 Gazan workers into Israel, and this is how Hamas got the intelligence for the Oct 7 attack. You have the series of events backwards. The Israelis withdrew from Gaza. The Palestinians elected Hamas. Then the Israelis put the blockade in place. As long as the Gazans elect a terrorist government devoted to the destruction of Israel, then the Israelis will take actions to protect themselves. The amount of restrictions Israel places on Gaza will be in line with the severity of the threat to Israel.

 

Also, you fail to mention that Gaza has a border with Egypt. Egypt also imposed a blockade against Gaza, as Hamas is dangerous. 

 

The Palestinians aren't treated as "second class citizens". They are not citizens of Israel. Period. Similarly Israelis are not citizens of the Palestinians Authority. They have two separate governments, with two separate systems of citizenship. 

[Bob Long]

20 minutes ago, Super19 said:

And Israel. Will Palestenians stay living under Israeli oppression? Will Gaza still be defined as an "open air prison"? Will they continue to be dehumanized? Do Gazans still have to worry about illegal occupation? Treated as second class citizens? Be held in prisons without trials? How much control will there be? More or less than before? How many Gazans will even survive this war or have a home they can go back to?

 

From my perspective, your ideas don't seem to have a lot of faith in Palestinians ability to help themselves.

[Super19]

7 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

Israel had started allowing 20,000 Gazan workers into Israel, and this is how Hamas got the intelligence for the Oct 7 attack. You have the series of events backwards. The Israelis withdrew from Gaza. The Palestinians elected Hamas. Then the Israelis put the blockade in place. As long as the Gazans elect a terrorist government devoted to the destruction of Israel, then the Israelis will take actions to protect themselves. The amount of restrictions Israel places on Gaza will be in line with the severity of the threat to Israel.

 

Also, you fail to mention that Gaza has a border with Egypt. Egypt also imposed a blockade against Gaza, as Hamas is dangerous. 

 

The Palestinians aren't treated as "second class citizens". They are not citizens of Israel. Period. Similarly Israelis are not citizens of the Palestinians Authority. They have two separate governments, with two separate systems of citizenship. 

Israeli oppression precedes and goes hand in hand in all of what you say. This is why accountability from both sides is crucial. 

Palestenians have no govt. No army. No proper citizenship. This is not Hamas fault. It's oppressions fault. Yes Egypt isn't helping and so aren't other Arab nations.

 

We really need to discuss the oppression if this is your sentiment of pre Oct 7. It's been oppression oppression oppression. Stop the oppression. 

 

A ceasefire and diplomacy is the way.

 

A ceasefire and diplomacy brought back hostages and no one was killed. Compare that to how many killed and how many hostages have been returned from the Israeli siege? 

[Super19]

15 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

From my perspective, your ideas don't seem to have a lot of faith in Palestinians ability to help themselves.

Well first they need a ceasefire and diplomacy. But this would be seen as a defeat for Israel. But it would mean chance for Gazans to live free in Palestine. 2 state solution. True peace. It starts with a ceasefire and diplomacy. Keep the siege going, forcibly displace many, kill many, and imprison the radicals (but how can you blame a kid who has seen his world destroyed by Israeli bombs?), and you'll get the same shit repeating over and over. 

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Well first they need a ceasefire and diplomacy. But this would be seen as a defeat for Israel. But it would mean chance for Gazans to live free in Palestine. 2 state solution. True peace. It starts with a ceasefire and diplomacy. Keep the siege going, forcibly displace many, kill many, and imprison the radicals (but how can you blame a kid who has seen his world destroyed by Israeli bombs?), and you'll get the same shit repeating over and over. 

 

Can you come up with plans that don't rely on Israel? What can Gazans do on their own?

[Boudrias]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

Can you come up with plans that don't rely on Israel? What can Gazans do on their own?

Diplomacy by Hamas is just another weapon they use. Taking hostages was very deliberate. Hamas thinks they are winning the propaganda war but no one of significance is listening. The politicos are putting on a BS campaign. The ME Sunnis and the Israelis are eliminating Hamas at whatever cost required. 

[Super19]

"Israel's right to defend itself" has invoked Article 99.

 

Quote

 

He described the use of Article 99 as a "dramatic constitutional move" that Mr. Guterres hoped would put more pressure on the Council - and the international community at large - to demand a ceasefire between the warring parties.

 

 

 

[Super19]

11 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Diplomacy by Hamas is just another weapon they use. Taking hostages was very deliberate. Hamas thinks they are winning the propaganda war but no one of significance is listening. The politicos are putting on a BS campaign. The ME Sunnis and the Israelis are eliminating Hamas at whatever cost required. 

Yes the taking of hostages was deliberate.

 

60% of all journalists killed by Israel since 2000, have been killed between Oct 7 - Dec 3, 2023. Willing journalists are barred entry into Gaza. Israel is winning the war against journalism.

 

[Bob Long]

18 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Diplomacy by Hamas is just another weapon they use. Taking hostages was very deliberate. Hamas thinks they are winning the propaganda war but no one of significance is listening. The politicos are putting on a BS campaign. The ME Sunnis and the Israelis are eliminating Hamas at whatever cost required. 

 

That's it exactly.

[Bob Long]

19 minutes ago, Super19 said:

"Israel's right to defend itself" has invoked Article 99.

 

 

 

 

The un security council... I wouldn't get your hopes up.

[Super19]

25 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Can you come up with plans that don't rely on Israel? What can Gazans do on their own?

Can you condemn this Israeli siege and support their calls for a ceasefire? Otherwise, Palestenians would be most noble to die in their destroyed homes from Israeli bombs. Or you can see how they suffer, fatigued from moving around Gaza, as more bombs rain over them, and as famine and diseases spread and plummeting healthcare resources cease to help the wounded men, women, and children.

 

But those who survive this? Seem like prime candidates to continue living under oppressed conditions with the same vengeance in their blood they've felt for a long time. What do you expect from this man?

[Super19]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

The un security council... I wouldn't get your hopes up.

US veto bomb incoming in 3, 2...?