Hamas attacking Israel

[Taxi]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

Israeli oppression precedes and goes hand in hand in all of what you say. This is why accountability from both sides is crucial. 

Palestenians have no govt. No army. No proper citizenship. This is not Hamas fault. It's oppressions fault. Yes Egypt isn't helping and so aren't other Arab nations.

 

We really need to discuss the oppression if this is your sentiment of pre Oct 7. It's been oppression oppression oppression. Stop the oppression. 

 

A ceasefire and diplomacy is the way.

 

A ceasefire and diplomacy brought back hostages and no one was killed. Compare that to how many killed and how many hostages have been returned from the Israeli siege? 

 

I agree. However, if you expected Israel to take no military action after Oct 7, you are out to lunch. The idea that they would just negotiate with Hamas after Oct 7, while hundreds of their citizens were being held captive, was not realistic.

[Taxi]

54 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Diplomacy by Hamas is just another weapon they use. Taking hostages was very deliberate. Hamas thinks they are winning the propaganda war but no one of significance is listening. The politicos are putting on a BS campaign. The ME Sunnis and the Israelis are eliminating Hamas at whatever cost required. 

 

Hamas isn't winning any wars right now. The fact that no one came to their aid says it all. Israel now knows they can take Hamas head on at any time with no risk of escalation from Hamas' "allies". 

[Ghostsof1915]

Can't people just co-exist? Have light, heat, clean water, food, shelter, clothes. Instead of killing, plundering, raping.

I fear for the children. Because the trauma from the situation, means the cycle just continues.

 

[Super19]

These investigations on what happened on Oct 7 is shocking.

 

How many here believe everything that Israel had said surrounding Oct 7? What do you guys even believe had happened on Oct 7 to call it the most brutal attack in recent history and to justify Israels response? Well over 8,000 Palestenian children  including babies have died because of this, and Israel still has the greenlight.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Super19

[Bob Long]

4 hours ago, Super19 said:

Can you condemn this Israeli siege and support their calls for a ceasefire? Otherwise, Palestenians would be most noble to die in their destroyed homes from Israeli bombs. Or you can see how they suffer, fatigued from moving around Gaza, as more bombs rain over them, and as famine and diseases spread and plummeting healthcare resources cease to help the wounded men, women, and children.

 

But those who survive this? Seem like prime candidates to continue living under oppressed conditions with the same vengeance in their blood they've felt for a long time. What do you expect from this man?

 

what does any of this have to do with actions Palestinians can take for themselves?

[Bob Long]

4 hours ago, Super19 said:

US veto bomb incoming in 3, 2...?

 

or just some resolution with no teeth. 

 

You have very high hopes for things the UN "should" do, when the reality is there's very little the UN can actually do. 

[Super19]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

or just some resolution with no teeth. 

 

You have very high hopes for things the UN "should" do, when the reality is there's very little the UN can actually do. 

The fact that the UN even invoked such a tool speaks volumes about what Israel is getting away with.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Super19 said:

The fact that the UN even invoked such a tool speaks volumes about what Israel is getting away with.

 

no, it really doesn't. Its more hot air that does nothing to help anyone. 

[Sharpshooter]

5 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

Israel had started allowing 20,000 Gazan workers into Israel, and this is how Hamas got the intelligence for the Oct 7 attack. You have the series of events backwards. The Israelis withdrew from Gaza. The Palestinians elected Hamas. Then the Israelis put the blockade in place. As long as the Gazans elect a terrorist government devoted to the destruction of Israel, then the Israelis will take actions to protect themselves. The amount of restrictions Israel places on Gaza will be in line with the severity of the threat to Israel.

 

Also, you fail to mention that Gaza has a border with Egypt. Egypt also imposed a blockade against Gaza, as Hamas is dangerous. 

 

The Palestinians aren't treated as "second class citizens". They are not citizens of Israel. Period. Similarly Israelis are not citizens of the Palestinians Authority. They have two separate governments, with two separate systems of citizenship. 

Solid post.

[Sharpshooter]

5 hours ago, Super19 said:

Israeli oppression precedes and goes hand in hand in all of what you say. This is why accountability from both sides is crucial. 

Palestenians have no govt. No army. No proper citizenship. This is not Hamas fault. It's oppressions fault. Yes Egypt isn't helping and so aren't other Arab nations.

 

We really need to discuss the oppression if this is your sentiment of pre Oct 7. It's been oppression oppression oppression. Stop the oppression. 

 

A ceasefire and diplomacy is the way.

 

A ceasefire and diplomacy brought back hostages and no one was killed. Compare that to how many killed and how many hostages have been returned from the Israeli siege? 

A ceasefire and diplomacy is definitely the way forward. A two State solution is definitely the way forward. Rebuilding Palestine to a healthy and vibrant country, society and economy, IS the way forward. 
 

However, how does one treaty with a political party that has the destruction of those who they’re supposed to find peace with? 
 

 

[Boudrias]

18 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

no, it really doesn't. Its more hot air that does nothing to help anyone. 

Maybe a review of past UN resolutions are in order. Not impressed. Who is paying who?

[Alflives]

So the news is the IDF had eliminated 5,000 rats. Just how big an infestation is there in Gaza? Is there an idea of the number of vermin left? 

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Maybe a review of past UN resolutions are in order. Not impressed. Who is paying who?

 

Part of all this that I don't like to see is the infantilizing of Palestinians, as if they are incapable of choosing better leaders and a peaceful path forward, that it has to be constructed for them by the UN and "international community" whatever that means. 

 

But this is something the left does all the time, they love to pick a group to treat like victims. 

 

People in Gaza need to, and can, pick better leaders. They voted Hamas in, they can kick them out. 

 

[Boudrias]

Just now, Alflives said:

So the news is the IDF had eliminated 5,000 rats. Just how big an infestation is there in Gaza? Is there an idea of the number of vermin left? 

I read there were as many as 30,000 Hamas terrorists in Gaza. Oh, sorry, now 25,000. It is sorta like the Russian tank in Ukraine when it was fired up. An explosion of field mice pouring out of the engine block. Life cannot be easy for Palestinians whether there is a war or not. But decades go by and nothing changes. They have to choose peace and then get rid of those that stand in the way. If they do not then they are condemning themselves and their children to a life of slavery. 

[Taxi]

12 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Maybe a review of past UN resolutions are in order. Not impressed. Who is paying who?

 

A major problem with the UN is that they don't seem to be working towards a peaceful solution. Instead they are towing the Arab League line, which essentially tries to reverse the Israeli victories in 1948 and 1967. So it's always the same story. The UN puts forth horribly biased anti-Israel proposals. The USA, who is also full of bias but towards Israel, vetos them. Nothing gets done. 

 

The UN needs to start working on proposals that not only put Israel to task but also the Palestinians. 

[Taxi]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Part of all this that I don't like to see is the infantilizing of Palestinians, as if they are incapable of choosing better leaders and a peaceful path forward, that it has to be constructed for them by the UN and "international community" whatever that means. 

 

But this is something the left does all the time, they love to pick a group to treat like victims. 

 

People in Gaza need to, and can, pick better leaders. They voted Hamas in, they can kick them out. 

 

 

To be fair, the worst groups in Palestine are all funded and supported by outside forces. When you had Saudi Arabia and now Iran giving Hamas billions of dollars and unlimited amounts of weapons and telling the Palestinian populace that they will be victorious in a military conflict against Israel, it's going to heavily influence things. The Palestinians have been very much pawns and sacrificial lambs for outside powers for decades. 

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

To be fair, the worst groups in Palestine are all funded and supported by outside forces. When you had Saudi Arabia and now Iran giving Hamas billions of dollars and unlimited amounts of weapons and telling the Palestinian populace that they will be victorious in a military conflict against Israel, it's going to heavily influence things. The Palestinians have been very much pawns and sacrificial lambs for outside powers for decades. 

 

they really have. They have to be the ones to break this cycle. 

[JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo]

48 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Part of all this that I don't like to see is the infantilizing of Palestinians, as if they are incapable of choosing better leaders and a peaceful path forward, that it has to be constructed for them by the UN and "international community" whatever that means. 

 

But this is something the left does all the time, they love to pick a group to treat like victims. 

 

People in Gaza need to, and can, pick better leaders. They voted Hamas in, they can kick them out. 

 

How do you suggest they do that? 

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Taxi said:

 

A major problem with the UN is that they don't seem to be working towards a peaceful solution. Instead they are towing the Arab League line, which essentially tries to reverse the Israeli victories in 1948 and 1967. So it's always the same story. The UN puts forth horribly biased anti-Israel proposals. The USA, who is also full of bias but towards Israel, vetos them. Nothing gets done. 

 

The UN needs to start working on proposals that not only put Israel to task but also the Palestinians. 

the UN needs to fumigate UNRWA and delouse itself of Hamas influence, reportedly nearing 80% of UN agencies in Gaza. 

[Alflives]

28 minutes ago, JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo said:

How do you suggest they do that? 

Lots of rat traps to eliminate Hamas so the good people of Gaza can be free. 

[Bob Long]

29 minutes ago, JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo said:

How do you suggest they do that? 

 

By suggesting that they are so oppressed they have no options, other than the UN doing things for them eg.

[Canuck Surfer]

6 hours ago, Super19 said:

Can you condemn this Israeli siege and support their calls for a ceasefire?

 

I condemn the current campaign. I prefer an ongoing siege. I would call for a cease fire. 

 

Not sure who 'their' is? Hamas has called for continued terror attacks and hostage taking. Don't intend to give up their arms. This fact underpins why a ceasefire won't be suggested by Hamas or agreed to by Israel. They unfortunately, are not me. Your own call for a cease fire has even less merit either if Hamas does not want one.

 

While Hamas continue to insist they will simply take more hostages.  

 

7 hours ago, Super19 said:

Compare that to how many killed and how many hostages have been returned were taken & citizens slaughtered from Oct 7 to explain why there was in the first place the Israeli siege? 

 

    

Hamas also started this 2006.  Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally. I mean there was international pressure, talks. Yet the PA nor Hamas set agreed terms negotiated in return for their withdrawal. Forcefully removed,  on orders by memory from Ariel Sharon, their own citizens did Israel, who were not in agreement to leave.   

 

West Bank is a different storyline completely; yet with Gaza offered a sovereign state, including East Jerusalem as its shared capital & united people with Gaza. 

 

This was Palestine's, most recent, opportunity to put down arms and agree to peace. The parameters were even in place, but Israel left Gaza without mandating them. 

 

Hamas intervened & cut off the peace process.  Started throwing peace believers out windows if they could not escape in exile.  

 

Then attacked Israel immediately. Now ongoing ever since...

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, Super19 said:

US veto bomb incoming in 3, 2...?

 

The UN is not a military agency or organization. They won't be bombing anyone to invoke a cease fire. 

 

They might help provide security internally via volunteer nations in Gaza, or peace keeping at borders if a ceasefire was agreed to.  Election monitoring.

[StrayDog]

10 hours ago, Super19 said:

From Oct 7 and onwards, Hamas have mainly been hitting military targets while the IDF have mainly been hitting civillian infrastructure. According to Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor, Israel is responsible for damaging 91 mosques and 3 churches. 22 hospitals, 55 clinics, and 46 ambulances. 256 schools. 1040 industrial facilities. 140 press headquarters are damaged or destroyed. Israel has completely destroyed over 59,000 units and partially destroyed 165,000 units. This targetting has led to most recent estimates of just over 20k dead, including 8241 children, 4126 women and 18k civillians. The injured are estimated to be at over 36,000. 67 killed journalists confirmed. And over 1.7million are displaced.

 

Prior to Oct 7 there's been shit on both sides. I too don't know which bus bombings Hamas are responsible for. They are an armed Muslim group, but they aren't ISIS. Both IDF and Hamas have done messed up things, I'm sure.

 

Here is a shocking video from Hamas, showing an Israeli base right on top of what seems to be a Hamas tunnel. No civillian infrastructure in sight. Hamas stated a while ago that they did not have their infrastructure under al-Shifa hospital. You can see the camera poke above the sand and Israeli soldiers at zero range. Hamas claimed 60 Israeli soldiers were killed or injured. This war between Hamas and IDF is indeed a tough one due to the dense urban population contrasted with the open desert.

 

Thanks for answering. Are there actual accounts of Hamas attacking military targets? I haven't been able to find any with a cursory search. And the video is interesting but I can't discern if those are really IDF; they're just random armed people as far as I can make out. Both sides have made a bunch of claims - some I believe but most I'm a lot less sure of. (Propaganda is a bitch.) The only thing I'm sure of is you're right in saying urban combat is terrible.

[Yoshiyoshi]

46 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

Thanks for answering. Are there actual accounts of Hamas attacking military targets? I haven't been able to find any with a cursory search. And the video is interesting but I can't discern if those are really IDF; they're just random armed people as far as I can make out. Both sides have made a bunch of claims - some I believe but most I'm a lot less sure of. (Propaganda is a bitch.) The only thing I'm sure of is you're right in saying urban combat is terrible.

The only military target Hamas is attacking is the IDF soldiers digging them out of their holes. And that is only because they dont have a choice. The prefer targets that dont know how to fight so they can feel strong.