Hamas attacking Israel

[Optimist Prime]

6 hours ago, Alflives said:

So the news is the IDF had eliminated 5,000 rats. Just how big an infestation is there in Gaza? Is there an idea of the number of vermin left? 

Recent estimates between 30 and 55 thousand.

 

Earlier today the IDF broke through defensive lines of Hamas in the south end of the strip in more of a direct thrust move into the city there, as opposed to the encircling work in the north of the strip. I would say high priority target in the attack Vector but how far in?

 

I bet historians will note the two strategies as "the shield and the spear" or some shit.

[Super19]

2 hours ago, StrayDog said:

Thanks for answering. Are there actual accounts of Hamas attacking military targets? I haven't been able to find any with a cursory search. And the video is interesting but I can't discern if those are really IDF; they're just random armed people as far as I can make out. Both sides have made a bunch of claims - some I believe but most I'm a lot less sure of. (Propaganda is a bitch.) The only thing I'm sure of is you're right in saying urban combat is terrible.

Cheers StrayDog. Yes there's plenty of videos and reports on X of Israeli military targets being hit.

 

Propaganda is a bitch indeed.

 

Israels response is definitely worse than the Oct 7 attack. Ill go as far to say someone supporting this response or sees it as necessary is not humane.

 

[Super19]

4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I condemn the current campaign. I prefer an ongoing siege. I would call for a cease fire. 

 

Not sure who 'their' is? Hamas has called for continued terror attacks and hostage taking. Don't intend to give up their arms. This fact underpins why a ceasefire won't be suggested by Hamas or agreed to by Israel. They unfortunately, are not me. Your own call for a cease fire has even less merit either if Hamas does not want one.

 

While Hamas continue to insist they will simply take more hostages.  

Even from Hamas perspective, a ceasefire now would be a victory for the resistance. I think theyd welcome it. 100% Hamas would if the hostage-prisoner exchange is to Hamas' terms they offered since day 1.

 

A ceasefire in lieu of Oct 7 is a different story. Israel has shown they'd rather kill 7,000+ children including babies than to swap 6,000 prisoners (many of whom held without a trial) in return for all the Israeli hostages and a permanent ceasefire.

 

The recent conflicts between Israel-Palestenian have not been on this scale and length. It seems both the Israeli army and Hamas are prepared to see this war through... Unlikely to see Hamas surrender. Unlikely to see the Israeli army lose.... unless a permanent ceasefire is agreed upon.

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

1) Even from Hamas perspective, a ceasefire now would be a victory for the resistance. I think theyd welcome it. 

 

2) 100% Hamas would if the hostage-prisoner exchange is to Hamas' terms they offered since day 1.

 

Broken in to two parts?

 

1) Is your opinion?

2) Please explain the terms Hamas wants. Since day 1?

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

 

A ceasefire in lieu of Oct 7 is a different story. Israel has shown they'd rather kill 7,000+ children including babies than to swap 6,000 prisoners (many of whom held without a trial) in return for all the Israeli hostages and a permanent ceasefire.

 

Israeli released in the first day, types of prisoners who stabbed, and attacked people after sneaking in to Israel. The  'prisoners' exchanged have been those who have committed crimes. Imagine being asked to return Marah Bakir, who stabbed Israeli soldiers? 3 people like her, for a baby. More than one captive baby had parents killed during their indiscriminate capture. Those held without trial are militants. Prisoners of war. Yahya Sinwar was released for a prisoner. All death  in this conflict indicate such exchanges are victories for Hamas. 

 

Hamas have never mentioned a permanent ceasefire yet. Have they?  ''We will take hostages, and kill, again, and again, and again.'' 

 

If so? Hamas, who have let 6000 die by hiding behind them; I would not be surprised these slimy bastards want a peace fire now.  I meant to type cease fire? Hamas only wants a break so they can fire, steal, and take hostages another day.  It was not good grammar.  Still truth. 

 

 

[Taxi]

7 hours ago, Super19 said:

Even from Hamas perspective, a ceasefire now would be a victory for the resistance. I think theyd welcome it. 100% Hamas would if the hostage-prisoner exchange is to Hamas' terms they offered since day 1.

 

A ceasefire in lieu of Oct 7 is a different story. Israel has shown they'd rather kill 7,000+ children including babies than to swap 6,000 prisoners (many of whom held without a trial) in return for all the Israeli hostages and a permanent ceasefire.

 

The recent conflicts between Israel-Palestenian have not been on this scale and length. It seems both the Israeli army and Hamas are prepared to see this war through... Unlikely to see Hamas surrender. Unlikely to see the Israeli army lose.... unless a permanent ceasefire is agreed upon.

Are you serious? I get the sympathy for the people of Gaza. What that going through is horrible. But you're stating the only moral choice was to accept hamas' terms of settlement after October 7? Then what happens the next time hamas decides to attack?

[Bob Long]

9 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Recent estimates between 30 and 55 thousand.

 

Earlier today the IDF broke through defensive lines of Hamas in the south end of the strip in more of a direct thrust move into the city there, as opposed to the encircling work in the north of the strip. I would say high priority target in the attack Vector but how far in?

 

I bet historians will note the two strategies as "the shield and the spear" or some shit.

 

They aren't playing around that's for sure. It certainly looks to me like the decision is to never have to do this again and they are going for a complete as possible removal of Hamas capabilities.

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Taxi said:

Are you serious? I get the sympathy for the people of Gaza. What that going through is horrible. But you're stating the only moral choice was to accept hamas' terms of settlement after October 7? Then what happens the next time hamas decides to attack?

 

It's easy to try to take the moral high ground when you can create  an oversimplified narrative.

 

Oh you disagree? You support killing babies then. It's not possible to discuss things rationally with some folks.

[Super19]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

They aren't playing around that's for sure. It certainly looks to me like the decision is to never have to do this again and they are going for a complete as possible removal of Hamas capabilities.

Ceasefire and diplomacy. 2 state solution. Concessions and accountability from BOTH sides.

[Odd.]

17 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Part of all this that I don't like to see is the infantilizing of Palestinians, as if they are incapable of choosing better leaders and a peaceful path forward, that it has to be constructed for them by the UN and "international community" whatever that means. 

 

But this is something the left does all the time, they love to pick a group to treat like victims. 

 

People in Gaza need to, and can, pick better leaders. They voted Hamas in, they can kick them out. 

 

What does this even mean?

 

There is no left or right wing politics here. There are leftists who are pro Israeli and rightists that are pro Palestine. I am very much right leaning and you know just how much I feel about Israel.
 

Hamas forced themselves into power. Resistance fought and were defeated by Hamas. Only a fraction of Palestinians support Hamas (as is with every group of people, there are always radical sides). 60% of Palestinians are children, not old enough to vote. I’m not sure what a nation that has more children than adults are capable of doing.

[Taxi]

9 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Ceasefire and diplomacy. 2 state solution. Concessions and accountability from BOTH sides.

 

And let's just ignore what happened on Oct 7? Israel is expected to make concessions after Oct 7?

 

Israel was making concession prior to Oct 7. They had allowed 20,000 workers per day into Gaza. That was a preliminary step towards removing the blockade. Oct 7 throws that out the window. 

 

I do agree that a two state solution is the best solution. However, that can only happen after Hamas is out of the picture. Are you forgetting that Hamas still swears that they will never accept a Jewish state, and still states that any agreement with Israel is temporary until they can continue fighting?

 

Once again, I feel a huge amount of sympathy for the people of Gaza, and I think the Israeli response has been heavy handed. There are plenty of individual attacks and actions Israel likely should not have taken. However, expecting no response? 

[King Heffy]

6 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

And let's just ignore what happened on Oct 7? Israel is expected to make concessions after Oct 7?

 

Israel was making concession prior to Oct 7. They had allowed 20,000 workers per day into Gaza. That was a preliminary step towards removing the blockade. Oct 7 throws that out the window. 

 

I do agree that a two state solution is the best solution. However, that can only happen after Hamas is out of the picture. Are you forgetting that Hamas still swears that they will never accept a Jewish state, and still states that any agreement with Israel is temporary until they can continue fighting?

 

Once again, I feel a huge amount of sympathy for the people of Gaza, and I think the Israeli response has been heavy handed. There are plenty of individual attacks and actions Israel likely should not have taken. However, expecting no response? 

Giving Hamas what they want after October 7 would ensure a repeat.  Israel wants to prevent this from ever happening again, which necessitates the complete extermination of Hamas.  There's no reasonable solution that can be reached while the Hamas terrorists and their leadership are alive.

Edited December 7, 2023 by King Heffy

[Taxi]

Just now, Odd. said:

What does this even mean?

 

There is no left or right wing politics here. There are leftists who are pro Israeli and rightists that are pro Palestine. I am very much right leaning and you know just how much I feel about Israel.
 

Hamas forced themselves into power. Resistance fought and were defeated by Hamas. Only a fraction of Palestinians support Hamas (as is with every group of people, there are always radical sides). 60% of Palestinians are children, not old enough to vote. I’m not sure what a nation that has more children than adults are capable of doing.

 

Hamas was actually elected into power.

 

As for just before the attacks:

 

Quote

 

Since then, the picture has grown murkier, with mostly narrow leads shifting back and forth. On average, polls in 2022 and 2023 give Fatah 35 percent support and 34 percent for Hamas. Considering just this year’s polls generates a half point lead for Hamas.  

Polls in potential presidential elections paint a different picture. If new presidential elections were held with two candidates, Fatah’s Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas’s Ismail Haniyeh, Abbas would receive 37 percent of the vote, and Haniyeh would win in a landslide with 58 percent.   

 

 

Now keep in mind this is for the whole of the Palestinian population. The support in Gaza, is likely much higher. 

 

I do agree that children are innocent. However, you are definitely downplaying the support for Hamas amongst the Palestinian people, and Gaza specifically. 

[Super19]

3 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

And let's just ignore what happened on Oct 7? Israel is expected to make concessions after Oct 7?

 

Israel was making concession prior to Oct 7. They had allowed 20,000 workers per day into Gaza. That was a preliminary step towards removing the blockade. Oct 7 throws that out the window. 

 

I do agree that a two state solution is the best solution. However, that can only happen after Hamas is out of the picture. Are you forgetting that Hamas still swears that they will never accept a Jewish state, and still states that any agreement with Israel is temporary until they can continue fighting?

 

Once again, I feel a huge amount of sympathy for the people of Gaza, and I think the Israeli response has been heavy handed. There are plenty of individual attacks and actions Israel likely should not have taken. However, expecting no response? 

Can we first be clear what did and didn't happen on Oct 7? What do you think happened on Oct 7?

 

I fully condemn the Hamas attack btw, and I fully condemn this Israeli response. But I understand why both sides did what they did/ are doing. And it's not hard to see how this Israeli response is absolutely abhorrent. Far worse than Oct 7. This Israeli response is one of the most brutal attacks in recent history. It invoked Article 99 from the UN, an unprecedented move that doesn't happen willy nilly.

[Odd.]

Just now, Taxi said:

 

Hamas was actually elected into power.

 

As for just before the attacks:

 

 

Now keep in mind this is for the whole of the Palestinian population. The support in Gaza, is likely much higher. 

 

I do agree that children are innocent. However, you are definitely downplaying the support for Hamas amongst the Palestinian people, and Gaza specifically. 

So a nation with 60% children had an almost even split vote between Hamas and the PLO. Seems like a portion of the Palestinians to me. 
 

Keep in mind Israel created the fundamental building blocks of Hamas to rival PLO in the first place. 

[Super19]

6 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Broken in to two parts?

 

1) Is your opinion?

2) Please explain the terms Hamas wants. Since day 1?

 

 

It's my interpretation of Hamas' opinion.

 

2) its hard to search for these statements but here are some recent ones:

Quote

HAMAS LEADER OFFICIAL STATEMENT

Osama Hamdan;

“There will be no negotiation or prisoner exchange unless the aggression against our people stops

The goals of Netanyahu and his army are not achievable, but rather a prelude to his defeat and trial

There will be no negotiations unless the aggression against Gaza is stopped and we hold Netanyahu responsible for the lives of the detainees.

Al-Aqsa Mosque is a purely Islamic site that extremist “Israeli” groups will have no right to.

Anyone who obstructs the arrival of aid to Gaza is an accomplice in the crime”

Quote

HAMAS OFFICIAL STATEMENT 

“We demand all the world's forces to end the occupation of our land and our Al-Quds. We are ready to pay the price for freedom and will not accept anything less than our independence.

We had information that the aggression would return to Gaza after the civilian prisoner exchange operation.

There will be no prisoner exchange as long as the aggression continues on Gaza.

We are in a battle of liberation, and the occupier must leave our land.

We have proposed the handover of the elderly over 60 years in exchange for the release of our prisoners over 60.

Efforts are ongoing, and our brothers in Qatar are exerting efforts to curb the "israeli" aggression on Gaza.

The ruling class in the zionist entity has an interest in continuing the aggression because once it stops, its role will end and Netanyahu will go to prison.

The resistance, led by Hamas, is steadfast in Gaza, and we are certain that the Palestinian people will expel the occupation.

Every "israeli" crime against our people hastens the end of the occupation.

I salute our brothers in Lebanon, Iraq, and Yemen, and we call on all Arab and Islamic countries to fight the occupation.

An Arab state receiving the leader of the zionist entity at this time is difficult for us, illogical, and we are against normalization with the occupation.”

 

[RomanPer]

14 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Can we first be clear what did and didn't happen on Oct 7? What do you think happened on Oct 7?

 

I fully condemn the Hamas attack btw, and I fully condemn this Israeli response. But I understand why both sides did what they did/ are doing. And it's not hard to see how this Israeli response is absolutely abhorrent. Far worse than Oct 7. This Israeli response is one of the most brutal attacks in recent history. It invoked Article 99 from the UN, an unprecedented move that doesn't happen willy nilly.

 

Go watch the 45 minutes video from the body cams of Hamas terrorists. It's incredible how people like you start re-writing actual facts, the further in the history they go. In a year from now it will be Israel who did all this and forced Hamas noble gentlemen to rape women, kill people and kidnap babies and elderly. Give your head a serious shake.

[Taxi]

9 minutes ago, Odd. said:

So a nation with 60% children had an almost even split vote between Hamas and the PLO. Seems like a portion of the Palestinians to me. 
 

Keep in mind Israel created the fundamental building blocks of Hamas to rival PLO in the first place. 

 

58% of total Palestinians voters wanted the Hamas leader to be their leader. That number is likely much higher in Gaza. I do agree that the children are innocents caught up in this.

[Taxi]

18 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Can we first be clear what did and didn't happen on Oct 7? What do you think happened on Oct 7?

 

I fully condemn the Hamas attack btw, and I fully condemn this Israeli response. But I understand why both sides did what they did/ are doing. And it's not hard to see how this Israeli response is absolutely abhorrent. Far worse than Oct 7. This Israeli response is one of the most brutal attacks in recent history. It invoked Article 99 from the UN, an unprecedented move that doesn't happen willy nilly.

 

You do know there's actual videos of the attacks? Hamas was filming the attacks and bragging about it on social media. Then there are the medical experts and eye witness accounts stating that atrocities like gang rapes definitely happened. There's videos of Hamas dragging the corpse of a naked young lady through the streets so that people can spit on and beat her corpse. 

[StrayDog]

10 hours ago, Super19 said:

Cheers StrayDog. Yes there's plenty of videos and reports on X of Israeli military targets being hit.

 

Propaganda is a bitch indeed.

 

Israels response is definitely worse than the Oct 7 attack. Ill go as far to say someone supporting this response or sees it as necessary is not humane.

 

I'm sorry, but I cannot take X seriously as a source of any kind of real information. It is the perfect propaganda breeding ground. Anyone who is posting anything there has an agenda. 

 

[Odd.]

2 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

58% of total Palestinians voters wanted the Hamas leader to be their leader. That number is likely much higher in Gaza. I do agree that the children are innocents caught up in this.

I think it’s very much more complex than that. And my sources say it’s closer to 46% (Reuters, the Washington post). 

 

There are Palestinians who have voted for Hamas due to their hatred for Israel (which stems from colonialism and apartheid like conditions and oppression which they have faced).

 

Palestinians that believe by voting Hamas they are being protected (victims of brainwashing by Hamas, the ones who believe they are “freedom fighters”).

 

And Palestinians that voted for Hamas because they want the extermination of Jews. 
 

Many of the Palestinians who have voted for Hamas fit in one of these 3 categories. The radical ones, who believe Jews need to be exterminated, are Hamas militants themselves and or Palestinians with affiliations with Hamas (family members, friends, living in Hamas heavily influenced places). They do not make up the majority of Palestinians. 
 

What is often overlooked by the pro Israelis is that Palestinians don’t actually have much power within their own borders. Hamas controls everything. To say in the same breath that Palestinians who are fleeing away from being bombed while they’re pulling dead children off the fine rubble ridden streets of Gaza need to be the ones who push Hamas out is low IQ response and a gross disregard to Palestinians themselves who are currently preoccupied with much pressing matters.
 

Coupled with the fact that most Palestinians are children, another portion who are malnourished and impoverished young adults, another portion who are starved and unable to access basic human needs, and another portion who are parents whose main concern is to protect their children, and suddenly you don’t have a recipe for a revolution.

[Taxi]

1 minute ago, Odd. said:

I think it’s very much more complex than that. And my sources say it’s closer to 46% (Reuters, the Washington post). 

 

There are Palestinians who have voted for Hamas due to their hatred for Israel (which stems from colonialism and apartheid like conditions and oppression which they have faced).

 

Palestinians that believe by voting Hamas they are being protected (victims of brainwashing by Hamas, the ones who believe they are “freedom fighters”).

 

And Palestinians that voted for Hamas because they want the extermination of Jews. 
 

Many of the Palestinians who have voted for Hamas fit in one of these 3 categories. The radical ones, who believe Jews need to be exterminated, are Hamas militants themselves and or Palestinians with affiliations with Hamas (family members, friends, living in Hamas heavily influenced places). They do not make up the majority of Palestinians. 
 

What is often overlooked by the pro Israelis is that Palestinians don’t actually have much power within their own borders. Hamas controls everything. To say in the same breath that Palestinians who are fleeing away from being bombed while they’re pulling dead children off the fine rubble ridden streets of Gaza need to be the ones who push Hamas out is low IQ response and a gross disregard to Palestinians themselves who are currently preoccupied with much pressing matters.
 

Coupled with the fact that most Palestinians are children, another portion who are malnourished and impoverished young adults, another portion who are starved and unable to access basic human needs, and another portion who are parents whose main concern is to protect their children, and suddenly you don’t have a recipe for a revolution.

 

How do you propose dealing with and potentially getting rid of Hamas?

[Odd.]

Just now, Taxi said:

 

How do you propose dealing with and potentially getting rid of Hamas?

I think a better question would be to ask; How do we get rid of Hamas AND avoid the innocent casualties? 

 

Because the alternative would be to simply nuke Gaza and exterminate all Palestinians under the preface that Hamas has too much influence and are blended among Palestinian civilians. 
 

In which case that answers your original question.

 

Now let’s propose a less genocidal approach.

 

Call for a ceasefire. Have western powers temporarily act as mediators. Stop the bombings, and gain full control and seizure of Gaza. Thoroughly investigate, ID, and screen Palestinians, and give them the option to integrate within the Israeli community, and assure them of equal access and security as Israelis. Meanwhile, takedown Hamas strongholds, cut Hamas connections with Hezbollah and Iran, sanction these same entities economically, and once you have stable control of the region, advise an international peace process plan that ensures a two state government and system.

[Taxi]

Just now, Odd. said:

I think a better question would be to ask; How do we get rid of Hamas AND avoid the innocent casualties? 

 

Because the alternative would be to simply nuke Gaza and exterminate all Palestinians under the preface that Hamas has too much influence and are blended among Palestinian civilians. 
 

In which case that answers your original question.

 

Now let’s propose a less genocidal approach.

 

Call for a ceasefire. Have western powers temporarily act as mediators. Stop the bombings, and gain full control and seizure of Gaza. Thoroughly investigate, ID, and screen Palestinians, and give them the option to integrate within the Israeli community, and assure them of equal access and security as Israelis. Meanwhile, takedown Hamas strongholds, cut Hamas connections with Hezbollah and Iran, sanction these same entities economically, and once you have stable control of the region, advise an international peace process plan that ensures a two state government and system.

 

I don't disagree with your plan. I, however, don't think that would be possible without first, removing much of Hamas' military capabilities. What country is going to want to enter Gaza with Hamas in full military control?

[Super19]

50 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Go watch the 45 minutes video from the body cams of Hamas terrorists. It's incredible how people like you start re-writing actual facts, the further in the history they go. In a year from now it will be Israel who did all this and forced Hamas noble gentlemen to rape women, kill people and kidnap babies and elderly. Give your head a serious shake.

 

46 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

You do know there's actual videos of the attacks? Hamas was filming the attacks and bragging about it on social media. Then there are the medical experts and eye witness accounts stating that atrocities like gang rapes definitely happened. There's videos of Hamas dragging the corpse of a naked young lady through the streets so that people can spit on and beat her corpse. 

I've just been issued a warning ITT. That's my cue to get into a better headspace.

 

I'll take a break from posting ITT until I can properly investigate to what did and didn't happen on Oct 7, as that day was the catalyst for what I am seeing happening right now in Gaza. In any case I want a permanent ceasefire. Do not forget about what the Palestenians are going through right now. I urge you all, that while you see where and when and how the Israeli army is advancing, and what the geopolitcal plans should be upon this war being over, do not forget about the Palestenains suffering greatly right now. I urge you to see and hear their voices and their videos and their pictures and their stories.

 

Peace.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Super19