Hamas attacking Israel

[Yoshiyoshi]

35 minutes ago, Odd. said:

I think a better question would be to ask; How do we get rid of Hamas AND avoid the innocent casualties? 

 

Because the alternative would be to simply nuke Gaza and exterminate all Palestinians under the preface that Hamas has too much influence and are blended among Palestinian civilians. 
 

In which case that answers your original question.

 

Now let’s propose a less genocidal approach.

 

Call for a ceasefire. Have western powers temporarily act as mediators. Stop the bombings, and gain full control and seizure of Gaza. Thoroughly investigate, ID, and screen Palestinians, and give them the option to integrate within the Israeli community, and assure them of equal access and security as Israelis. Meanwhile, takedown Hamas strongholds, cut Hamas connections with Hezbollah and Iran, sanction these same entities economically, and once you have stable control of the region, advise an international peace process plan that ensures a two state government and system.

You dont get rid of Hamas without the innocent casualties, its not realistically possible. I mean if you were willing to sacrifices tons of lives of soldiers to avoid those casualties you might be able to do it, maybe. You made a comment about people thinking the Palestinian people needing to take care of the problem being idiots(not the exact wording obviously) but that is literally the only way this gets done without those casualties by the military. True many would still die, just at Hamas hands.

 

So for the rest of your solution here, in order to implement it, how many civilian casualties should Israel accept in order to follow this plan? Because some will always slip through the security now matter how tough it is. How are they supposed to take down Hamas strongholds without civilian casualties when the civilians are in them? The siege is how they are cutting the links to other factions, Iran is already sanctioned. As to a 2 state solution government and system, how do you ensure that Hamas or something similar doesnt just take power again? And for Gaza, it isnt capable of supporting itself so how do you resolve that situation? Do you make Israel give up more land to build infrastructure they need? make Israel give up some of their facilities? Do you keep the area occupied by peacekeepers? For how long? What do you do when the Palestinians attack those peacekeepers? Are the peacekeepers allowed to defend themselves? I can go on but you can probably see the narrative.

 

While i do admire your desire to limit the death of civilians in the conflict, I just dont believe that any method anyone has presented will result in fewer deaths overall. Is it better to spread the death toll over a decade or 2 or have it all at once? Is fewer deaths the most important goal, or is it better to choose more deaths for the potential of a better future?

Edited December 7, 2023 by Yoshiyoshi

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Odd. said:

What does this even mean?

 

There is no left or right wing politics here. There are leftists who are pro Israeli and rightists that are pro Palestine. I am very much right leaning and you know just how much I feel about Israel.
 

Hamas forced themselves into power. Resistance fought and were defeated by Hamas. Only a fraction of Palestinians support Hamas (as is with every group of people, there are always radical sides). 60% of Palestinians are children, not old enough to vote. I’m not sure what a nation that has more children than adults are capable of doing.

 

Hamas got voted in and then bullied their way into staying. But even with that they apparently have a lot of support. That has to change.

 

Palestinians are absolutely capable of forming and running a fair minded government. That's what I mean by infantilizing, thinking they can't. Of course they can. 

 

South Africa has a young population, they did it. 

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

Ceasefire and diplomacy. 2 state solution. Concessions and accountability from BOTH sides.

 

I think that's coming.

[RomanPer]

This is a picture of captured Hamas terrorists in Gaza. The reason they are not wearing anything is to ensure there are no bombs tied to their bodies. Sitting quietly, not as eager to fight against the real Army as they were on October 7th against women and children. Time left until Hamas sympathizers in the West start screaming about human rights abuse by IDF is 3,2,1…

[Boudrias]

51 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

This is a picture of captured Hamas terrorists in Gaza. The reason they are not wearing anything is to ensure there are no bombs tied to their bodies. Sitting quietly, not as eager to fight against the real Army as they were on October 7th against women and children. Time left until Hamas sympathizers in the West start screaming about human rights abuse by IDF is 3,2,1…

Must be living on pork & beans. 

[Odd.]

3 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Hamas got voted in and then bullied their way into staying. But even with that they apparently have a lot of support. That has to change.

 

Palestinians are absolutely capable of forming and running a fair minded government. That's what I mean by infantilizing, thinking they can't. Of course they can. 

 

South Africa has a young population, they did it. 

Of course they can but I wonder what extenuating circumstances might be debilitating them atm.
 

 

[the destroyer of worlds]

For the 29384579834587826759812759032485903784598374259806732458763249857398435579834579834759834675873645 th time

 

People who criticize the IDF for their tactics ARE NOT NECESSARILY HAMAS SUPPORTERS.

 

They are NOT NECESSARILY ANTISEMETIC.

 

For the love of all things holy, can some posters get that through their craniums.

 

That being said, I hope that all those photographed are actually Hamas members.  I hope those that are Hamas members in said photo receive justice.

 

My only wish is the the IDF did more direct attacks as opposed to just pointing to a building, saying there is Hamas in the area, then bombing the crap out of said neighbourhood.

 

Again, for the people at the back of the short bus.

 

Hamas needs to go.

[Bob Long]

50 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Of course they can but I wonder what extenuating circumstances might be debilitating them atm.
 

 

 

Sure at the moment. But they have had a succession of leaders for decades that screwed them over. 

 

They are the only ones that can solve this part of the equation.

[Yoshiyoshi]

35 minutes ago, the destroyer of worlds said:

For the 29384579834587826759812759032485903784598374259806732458763249857398435579834579834759834675873645 th time

 

People who criticize the IDF for their tactics ARE NOT NECESSARILY HAMAS SUPPORTERS.

 

They are NOT NECESSARILY ANTISEMETIC.

 

For the love of all things holy, can some posters get that through their craniums.

 

That being said, I hope that all those photographed are actually Hamas members.  I hope those that are Hamas members in said photo receive justice.

 

My only wish is the the IDF did more direct attacks as opposed to just pointing to a building, saying there is Hamas in the area, then bombing the crap out of said neighbourhood.

 

Again, for the people at the back of the short bus.

 

Hamas needs to go.

There is only 1 person on these forums being accused of that, and its not you.

[Alflives]

4 hours ago, RomanPer said:

This is a picture of captured Hamas terrorists in Gaza. The reason they are not wearing anything is to ensure there are no bombs tied to their bodies. Sitting quietly, not as eager to fight against the real Army as they were on October 7th against women and children. Time left until Hamas sympathizers in the West start screaming about human rights abuse by IDF is 3,2,1…

The IDF soldiers are showing great restraint. It’s pointless IMHAO to try and rehabilitate Hamas soldiers. Us israel going to build prisons for these guys? 

[Alflives]

3 hours ago, Boudrias said:

Must be living on pork & beans. 

A lot of these guys sure look well fed. Seems they get the best good, and lots of it. I thought the people of Gaza didn’t have enough food? 

[Bob Long]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

A lot of these guys sure look well fed. Seems they get the best good, and lots of it. I thought the people of Gaza didn’t have enough food? 

 

It's measured per capita apparently.

[Alflives]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/middleeast/rape-sexual-violence-hamas-israel-what-we-know-intl
 

All Hamas need to be exterminated. Evil people. With the Vermin of Hamas gone the Gaza will be built up. Lots of opportunities for the people. 

[Mike Vanderhoek]

5 hours ago, RomanPer said:

This is a picture of captured Hamas terrorists in Gaza. The reason they are not wearing anything is to ensure there are no bombs tied to their bodies. Sitting quietly, not as eager to fight against the real Army as they were on October 7th against women and children. Time left until Hamas sympathizers in the West start screaming about human rights abuse by IDF is 3,2,1…

 

You don't have to be a Hamas sympathizer to acknowledge the amount of unjust and disgusting treatment of and blatant killing that is going on at the hands of the IDF during this " conflict ".

 

But yeah there is a reason people are upset around the World right now, its not difficult to understand why.

[Optimist Prime]

Happy Hannukah to those who celebrate.

[Canuck Surfer]

12 hours ago, Super19 said:

Al-Aqsa Mosque is a purely Islamic site

 

You realize Al Aqsa was built on a Jewish holy site? 

 

ie when Israel is gone, because we conquered it, cough on and off for 1000 years, but not recently...  Y'now because maybe 500 years ago before the Ottomans, we did sorta have it?

 

My take is Jerusalem needs to be a multi cultural site. No doubt including some important specifics for Muslims that have been hard done by. Multi-cultural.

 

Not everyone else should leave cuz we, the almighty Hamas, who aren't even accepted by all their people, say so.  

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

10 hours ago, RomanPer said:

This is a picture of captured Hamas terrorists in Gaza. The reason they are not wearing anything is to ensure there are no bombs tied to their bodies. Sitting quietly, not as eager to fight against the real Army as they were on October 7th against women and children. Time left until Hamas sympathizers in the West start screaming about human rights abuse by IDF is 3,2,1…

 

If this was Syria, and they were Jewish?  Hell, as long as they were not 'us.'  This would have been a mass burial?  

[Canuck Surfer]

12 hours ago, Super19 said:

It's my interpretation of Hamas' opinion.

 

2) its hard to search for these statements but here are some recent ones:

 

 

It might be worth mentioning?  Hamas is not exactly in the drivers seat!   

 

I question why they ever had a license. 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

I would be happy if this is indeed cancelled!  March through the Muslim section en' force? In the past the behaved very badly. Busting heads, breaking store front windows. Stomping disdainfully through the Mosque.  Guarded by the IDF while violence occurs???

 

Visit the Western Wall sure. It should not need asking.  Respect for all citizens.  

 

Demand full control of the Al Aqsa compound? I mentioned earlier. It has to be a multi-cultural site.  

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[RomanPer]

5 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Happy Hannukah to those who celebrate.

 

Thank you! As the saying in Hebrew goes - “we are here with lights, to drive away the darkness”! But i still like his original rendition the most  

[Optimist Prime]

Every year we put up lights outside in ever increasing amounts, today we wrapped the tree closest to our main door so the base is white all up the trunk to about 6 feet, tomorrow tree two gets the base white and tree one gets purple "branches", we continue this for a bit longer than a week, lol. I am an atheist, but we agree, the lights drive away the dark, my wife is greatly affected by the dark season and the lights help a lot with seasonally affected disorder, or "SAD".

[Ilunga]

14 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

 

 

 

South Africa has a young population, they did it. 

 

Yeah.....naah 

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-06-16/south-africa-s-crime-chaos-and-corruption-make-it-look-like-a-failed-state

 

 

[Super19]

14 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Go watch the 45 minutes video from the body cams of Hamas terrorists. It's incredible how people like you start re-writing actual facts, the further in the history they go. In a year from now it will be Israel who did all this and forced Hamas noble gentlemen to rape women, kill people and kidnap babies and elderly. Give your head a serious shake.

Where's the evidence of rape? Israel wants the world to believe these horrible stories of all the supposed raping that happened on Oct 7, I'm sure of that much, yes, but did it actually happen? (And I really hope it didn't).

 

 

How about Israel believe Israeli women themselves? 90% of rape cases in Israel closed without indictment: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-11-21/ty-article/.premium/rise-in-israelis-reporting-sexual-assault/0000017f-e988-dea7-adff-f9fb614f0000

 

Female IDF soldiers were pimped to terror inmates. An IDF soldier killed herself after she reported she was raped which led to probed suspicions of negligence.

And here is a story when IDF were accused of raping a 13year old Palestenian boy prisoner:

 

 

Israel lied through their teeth about the 40 beheaded babies. None were beheaded. Furthermore, Israel lied about how many babies were killed. It wasn't 40. It wasn't 30. It wasn't 20. Wasn't 10. Wasn't 5 or 4 or 3. It was 2. (One baby died as the mother was killed during childbirth - they were non-Jewish, arab-bedouins, possibly non Israeli as well. And one baby was killed, and we aren't sure if she was killed by Hamas or Israeli crossfire). THIS IS HORRIBLE... but Israel feels like it's self defense to lie about those made up stories of dead babies, incite a reaction, and then rain down bombs over Gaza which has killed 8,000+ children and counting, including hundreds, perhaps thousands of Palestenian children under 24 months. Do you call this self defense? This child killing army called the IDF. Take your reaction of the 2 killed babies on Oct 7, which is awful, and now multiply it by an exponential amount because that's what Israeli bombs are killing as we speak. And then factor in the fact that Israel LIED about these awful stories of killed babies on Oct 7.

 

So Israel lied about babies. They seem to be not telling the truth about their role in killing some of their own soldiers and civillians in the crossfire with Hamas. And Israel presented false evidence, claiming a deceased Kurdish woman from 2022 as an Israeli victim of rape at the music festival. Why in the ever fck would that seem look a good idea? What goes through Israel's head when they commit blatant lie after lie?

 

Hamas did take hostages. And during the agreed upon truce, via diplomatic efforts, Israel was returned nearly all of most vulnerable hostages, in better condition anyone would have thought they would have been returned (have you seen videos and some of the interviews and first hand account of the returned hostages?) as some of the Palestenian children and women prisoners were exchanged back to Gaza.

 

I'm not saying what Hamas did do on Oct 7 was right. And im not saying i dont understand why Israel wants to get back at Hamas. But all these lies from Israel made an awful and shocking attack look a million times worse. And Israel should be held accountable for it, and like you said earlier "the boy who cried wolf". People are counting how many times Israel has cried wolf. Lies, fabrications and propaganda are a tool Israel is using rn to get away with what they are getting away with.

 

Correct and forgive me if I'm wrong on anything, but provide your source. I already did enough shaking of my head.

[RomanPer]

3 minutes ago, Super19 said:

Where's the evidence of rape? Israel wants the world to believe these horrible stories of all the supposed raping that happened on Oct 7, I'm sure of that much, yes, but did it actually happen? (And I really hope it didn't).

 

 

How about Israel believe Israeli women themselves? 90% of rape cases in Israel closed without indictment: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-11-21/ty-article/.premium/rise-in-israelis-reporting-sexual-assault/0000017f-e988-dea7-adff-f9fb614f0000

 

Female IDF soldiers were pimped to terror inmates. An IDF soldier killed herself after she reported she was raped which led to probed suspicions of negligence.

And here is a story when IDF were accused of raping a 13year old Palestenian boy prisoner:

 

 

Israel lied through their teeth about the 40 beheaded babies. None were beheaded. Furthermore, Israel lied about how many babies were killed. It wasn't 40. It wasn't 30. It wasn't 20. Wasn't 10. Wasn't 5 or 4 or 3. It was 2. (One baby died as the mother was killed during childbirth - they were non-Jewish, arab-bedouins, possibly non Israeli as well. And one baby was killed, and we aren't sure if she was killed by Hamas or Israeli crossfire). THIS IS HORRIBLE... but Israel feels like it's self defense to lie about those made up stories of dead babies, incite a reaction, and then rain down bombs over Gaza which has killed 8,000+ children and counting, including hundreds, perhaps thousands of Palestenian children under 24 months. Do you call this self defense? This child killing army called the IDF. Take your reaction of the 2 killed babies on Oct 7, which is awful, and now multiply it by an exponential amount because that's what Israeli bombs are killing as we speak. And then factor in the fact that Israel LIED about these awful stories of killed babies on Oct 7.

 

So Israel lied about babies. They seem to be not telling the truth about their role in killing some of their own soldiers and civillians in the crossfire with Hamas. And Israel presented false evidence, claiming a deceased Kurdish woman from 2022 as an Israeli victim of rape at the music festival. Why in the ever fck would that seem look a good idea? What goes through Israel's head when they commit blatant lie after lie?

 

Hamas did take hostages. And during the agreed upon truce, via diplomatic efforts, Israel was returned nearly all of most vulnerable hostages, in better condition anyone would have thought they would have been returned (have you seen videos and some of the interviews and first hand account of the returned hostages?) as some of the Palestenian children and women prisoners were exchanged back to Gaza.

 

I'm not saying what Hamas did do on Oct 7 was right. And im not saying i dont understand why Israel wants to get back at Hamas. But all these lies from Israel made an awful and shocking attack look a million times worse. And Israel should be held accountable for it, and like you said earlier "the boy who cried wolf". People are counting how many times Israel has cried wolf. Lies, fabrications and propaganda are a tool Israel is using rn to get away with what they are getting away with.

 

Correct and forgive me if I'm wrong on anything, but provide your source. I already did enough shaking of my head.

 

You are correct, Holocaust didn’t happen either, we just killed ourselves and then inflated the numbers. I’ve had enough of your paddling of blatant antisemitism. Your “I don’t support Hamas” statements don’t fool me.