Hamas attacking Israel

[Super19]

11 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Hamas absolutely has to go.  They simply do not have the right to exist.  Your bias is showing by calling these vermin everything expect what they are: terrorists.

Hamas identity can change.  Israel wants the heads of this leadership. Draft as part of the resolution that these heads will need to surrender themselves to the Hague for Palestine 

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, Super19 said:

I am so dissappinted by this US Veto. Ceasefire and diplomacy is the only way for lasting peace for both Palestenians and Israelis. US wants the war to continue?

IMHAO the only way forward to a free Gaza people and their opportunity for a safe future is the total elimination of the rats who are Hamas. The evil (Hamas) must be eradicated. And the IDF is doing that job. In 39 years we will see the benefits from the IDF soldiers’ sacrifice in a prosperous (relatively) Gaza. 

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I struggle to understand his seeming goal of taking and holding 30km's along Turkey's southern border of Syrian Territory. Meant to be a demilitarized zone, all it really will do is encompass more Kurds into Turkey's area of control. Shrug, never interrupt your opponent when they are making a mistake. 

Edit: i suppose it is to foil any hopes of Kurdish homeland, BUT the obvious, in 20 years time this will lead to more Kurds in Turkey. All well, I like them a lot, the ones I met and I think they may deserve their own homeland, depending on how the ultimate demise of Al Asshat in Syria. (typo on purpose) If the eventual goal of democratic elections in Syria is ever achieved, I would fully support leaving Syria intact, but if it ends up split into three new nations, as it appears to be headed towards, I support the idea of a democratic Kurdistan, in a broad sense, while still hating ethnic divides at national borders. 

As a species we need to get over our fear of the other, and frankly, we need to get over religion. WIthout the idea that god is 'on our side' no matter who the side is...perhaps there would be a whole lot less killing in the name of....

 

So because some people use their belief in a god to justify bad shit, people who are driven by their religious beliefs to do good should be forced to " get over religion "

 

Just one example is here in my own society

 

4 out of the top 5 charities are Christian.

 

 

https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/four-of-australias-top-five-charities-are-christian/

 

The Salvation Army in particular do so much fantastic work here in Aus. 

And apparently they the most recognised charity in your society, for working with homeless people and families in need.

 

Edit.

 

Was just talking to my oldest friend last night.

One of our friends who was a tattooist found god.

He saved a heap of money, went to Thailand and amongst other things paid for and helped build a school. 

He returns every year and pays for improvements, such as building a proper sewerage system. 

 

He does this because of his religious beliefs.

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Ilunga

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

The only message I was sending is pointing out you are wrong about south Africa. 

 

As for what happens after this conflict is over any rational, intelligent person knows what will happen.

Things will go back to how they were before this particular conflict started, no matter who the governing body of the Palestinians is.

That's what history teaches us. 

 

 

Regarding the west bank 

 

Even an Aussie is stealing land in Jerusalem from people who have lived there for 1600 years. 

 

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/religionandethicsreport/property-deal-could-threaten-armenian-presence-in-holy-land/103126920

 

While not in Israel, the Armenian people are victims of genocide.

 

Have to disagree my friend. South Africans had the ability to set up a new government. It's going to shit since then is a different problem imo.

 

The point I'm (badly) trying to make is I believe in Gazans ability to make a better life for themselves.

[Elias Pettersson]

Technical glitch or anti semite producer gone rogue? 
 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

54 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

So because some people use their belief in a god to justify bad shit, people who are driven by their religious beliefs to do good should be forced to " get over religion "

 

Just one example is here in my own society

 

4 out of the top 5 charities are Christian.

 

 

https://www.eternitynews.com.au/australia/four-of-australias-top-five-charities-are-christian/

 

The Salvation Army in particular do so much fantastic work here in Aus. 

And apparently they the most recognised charity in your society, for working with homeless people and families in need.

 

Edit.

 

Was just talking to my oldest friend last night.

One of our friends who was a tattooist found god.

He saved a heap of money, went to Thailand and amongst other things paid for and helped build a school. 

He returns every year and pays for improvements, such as building a proper sewerage system. 

 

He does this because of his religious beliefs.

 

I would like to think that your friend does this because he is a good human being, as are you, and he happens to be religious.

[Alflives]

Just now, Optimist Prime said:

I would like to think that your friend does this because he is a good human being, as are you, and he happens to be religious.

I understand how us normal good folk would expect Hamas (crazies) to just be good. But (maybe?) we need to accept these Hamas people are evil and aren’t like us. I don’t know if anyone here here has seen the movie “They SHoot Horses, Don’t They”? But to me that is like Hamas. Sure we normal people want those creatures to behave normally. But they can’t. They are creatures so programmed by hate they can’t think like empathetic human beings. They are now animals. Hence the reference to the movie. 

[Optimist Prime]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I understand how us normal good folk would expect Hamas (crazies) to just be good. But (maybe?) we need to accept these Hamas people are evil and aren’t like us. I don’t know if anyone here here has seen the movie “They SHoot Horses, Don’t They”? But to me that is like Hamas. Sure we normal people want those creatures to behave normally. But they can’t. They are creatures so programmed by hate they can’t think like empathetic human beings. They are now animals. Hence the reference to the movie. 

I was responding directly to Illunga's talk about his Ozzy religious friend doing good deeds, it was an aside that admittedly doesn't belong in this thread. My apologies.

[Bure_Pavel]

1 hour ago, Super19 said:

Hamas identity can change.  Israel wants the heads of this leadership. Draft as part of the resolution that these heads will need to surrender themselves to the Hague for Palestine 

Hamas is not going to change from a terrorist group to a group of good guys. Their radical beliefs are reinforced every chance they get. It has already been decided they will cease to exist after this, the longer Hamas drags this out the more innocent people get hurt. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

I was responding directly to Illunga's talk about his Ozzy religious friend doing good deeds, it was an aside that admittedly doesn't belong in this thread. My apologies.

IMHAO any information and opinion here is of value. It helps us (those not so knowledgeable, like myself) better understand what going on. So, to me, there is no bad (or off topic) post). It’s all important. Especially those posts I viscerally disagree with. 

[Ilunga]

12 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Have to disagree my friend. South Africans had the ability to set up a new government. It's going to shit since then is a different problem imo.

 

The point I'm (badly) trying to make is I believe in Gazans ability to make a better life for themselves.

 

This conflict has/ will breed new hatreds on both sides that will fuel the the circle of hatred that has been happening for nearly 80 years.

Many are questioning what sort of regime, better or worse, will replace Hamas.

 

The Isrealis keep illegally taking land from the Palestinians on the west bank 

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

As for Gaza what evidence do you have that contradicts the last 50 odd years of history.

The Palestinians co - religionists don't really give a fuck about them.

Who from the west is going to pay for the rebuilding of Gaza ? 

 

Your country is is $2.1 trillion in debt which is 113 percent of its GDP.

 

My country is nearly $900 billion in debt, with projections to increase to over a trillion.

 

America is in debt to the tune of 30 trillion.

 

Britain is 3.3 trillion in debt.

 

France is 3 trillion, Euros, in debt.

 

Can't find an exact figure for Germany however it is a lot lower due to their fiscal policy of a debt brake, so it's hard to see them financing the rebuilding of the west bank.

 

Their is over 800 million people, roughly 10 percent of the worlds population starving, apart from some aid agencies what governments are helping them. 

 

Ukraine will need rebuilding after the Russian are defeated there. 

 

Again I will ask for some evidence that these claims, that Gaza will be rebuilt after this conflict over, are factual.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Hamas is not going to change from a terrorist group to a group of good guys. Their radical beliefs are reinforced every chance they get. It has already been decided they will cease to exist after this, the longer Hamas drags this out the more innocent people get hurt. 

Exactly! There’s the story (parable really) of the frog who accepts a scorpion’s ask to be carried across a River. The scorpion stings the frog mid stream. As they both drown the scorpion explains to the confused frog (because the frog understood they will both will die) that he is scorpion and can’t help his actions. Hamas soldiers are so programmed to hate they can’t help their actions. They are like animals. They must be put down. 

[Ilunga]

16 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I would like to think that your friend does this because he is a good human being, as are you, and he happens to be religious.

 

He was always a good bloke however it was his religious convictions that drove him to do the good work he has done in Thailand.

He hadn't done anything like this before he found god.

 

Because I am not getting to see my son this Christmas day I have volunteered to work with the salvos, I have bought a bunch of food and toys, we will make up hampers and take them to people the salvos know, the homeless, victims of domestic violence, not just giving them food and toys for their kids, but showing them they are cared about and worth something in our society.

[Bob Long]

11 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

This conflict has/ will breed new hatreds on both sides that will fuel the the circle of hatred that has been happening for nearly 80 years.

Many are questioning what sort of regime, better or worse, will replace Hamas.

 

The Isrealis keep illegally taking land from the Palestinians on the west bank 

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

 

As for Gaza what evidence do you have that contradicts the last 50 odd years of history.

The Palestinians co - religionists don't really give a fuck about them.

Who from the west is going to pay for the rebuilding of Gaza ? 

 

Your country is is $2.1 trillion in debt which is 113 percent of its GDP.

 

My country is nearly $900 billion in debt, with projections to increase to over a trillion.

 

America is in debt to the tune of 30 trillion.

 

Britain is 3.3 trillion in debt.

 

France is 3 trillion, Euros, in debt.

 

Can't find an exact figure for Germany however it is a lot lower due to their fiscal policy of a debt brake, so it's hard to see them financing the rebuilding of the west bank.

 

Their is over 800 million people, roughly 10 percent of the worlds population starving, apart from some aid agencies what governments are helping them. 

 

Ukraine will need rebuilding after the Russian are defeated there. 

 

Again I will ask for some evidence that these claims, that Gaza will be rebuilt after this conflict over, are factual.

 

I'm just talking about their capacity to self govern in a more positive way. My hope is that they aren't used as pawns anymore and start to think about their own futures in a different way.

 

As for 'who pays'.. dunno. 

 

or maybe they are fucked forever. I'd prefer to believe that they find some other way.

 

[Elias Pettersson]

11 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Exactly! There’s the story (parable really) of the frog who accepts a scorpion’s ask to be carried across a River. The scorpion stings the frog mid stream. As they both drown the scorpion explains to the confused frog (because the frog understood they will both will die) that he is scorpion and can’t help his actions. Hamas soldiers are so programmed to hate they can’t help their actions. They are like animals. They must be put down. 

 

Isn't there a snake story that is similar to this?

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I'm just talking about their capacity to self govern in a more positive way. My hope is that they aren't used as pawns anymore and start to think about their own futures in a different way.

 

As for 'who pays'.. dunno. 

 

or maybe they are fucked forever. I'd prefer to believe that they find some other way.

 

 

Honestly show me a realistic path for change. 

That can only happen if the Isrealis change some of their policies as well.

In any relationship be it personal or societal, it takes compromise to achieve peaceful coexistence.

 

What I really believe is any pretensions of a 2 state solution are now dead.

The only real way forward is a one state solution where everyone is equal, with equal representation. 

PO talks about fear of the other and he is correct. 

There are people who see each other as fellow human beings on both sides, I have posted example if this.

 

[Optimist Prime]

26 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

He was always a good bloke however it was his religious convictions that drove him to do the good work he has done in Thailand.

He hadn't done anything like this before he found god.

 

Because I am not getting to see my son this Christmas day I have volunteered to work with the salvos, I have bought a bunch of food and toys, we will make up hampers and take them to people the salvos know, the homeless, victims of domestic violence, not just giving them food and toys for their kids, but showing them they are cared about and worth something in our society.

I kind of feel, knowing you through these forums for like 2 decades, you would be doing this even if you were an athiest. 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I kind of feel, knowing you through these forums for like 2 decades, you would be doing this even if you were an athiest. 

 

As you know I have always been agnostic.

I have volunteered in a few forms most of my adult life.

I have also given at least 10 percent of what I earn each year to people less fortunate than me.

These values were taught to me by my parents who were very religious people.

[Optimist Prime]

25 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

As you know I have always been agnostic.

I have volunteered in a few forms most of my adult life.

I have also given at least 10 percent of what I earn each year to people less fortunate than me.

These values were taught to me by my parents who were very religious people.

Totally, I have found myself to be well looked after and while I don't keep track, I like to be charitable, directly. Lately I am struggling with a severe alcoholic friend, paid her rent so she isn't homeless but worry that I am allowing her more money to drink with..it has caused her harm with her job and her driving..its a bad path, but adding homelessness to it would imo lead to drugs and eventual overdosing and all that tragic stuff. I like to focus on my local situation with direct dollars and abroad through organizations. We can be good without gods. I get it though that a lot of people find the greater being who can punish to be a significant incentive. Again though, wrong thread.

[Bob Long]

38 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Honestly show me a realistic path for change. 

That can only happen if the Isrealis change some of their policies as well.

In any relationship be it personal or societal, it takes compromise to achieve peaceful coexistence.

 

What I really believe is any pretensions of a 2 state solution are now dead.

The only real way forward is a one state solution where everyone is equal, with equal representation. 

PO talks about fear of the other and he is correct. 

There are people who see each other as fellow human beings on both sides, I have posted example if this.

 

 

I guess I don't see hope in this view.

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I guess I don't see hope in this view.

 

As I have asked, tell me your realistic path to both people coexisting peacefully.

 

You don't see hope in the fact the peaceful coexistence takes compromise from both parties ? 

Mutual respect ?

Nearly 60 years on this planet has taught me that these things are the only real basis for lasting relationships on both personal and societal levels.

[StrayDog]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

A ceasefire ensures the hostages get returned. 

 

It ensures no such thing. If a cease fire guaranteed the release of hostages then all hostages would have been released during the last cease fire.

[StrayDog]

3 hours ago, Super19 said:

Hamas identity can change.  Israel wants the heads of this leadership. Draft as part of the resolution that these heads will need to surrender themselves to the Hague for Palestine 

They couldn't even condemn the Oct 7 attack as part of the resolution. There's no way they'll call leaders on either side to the Hague

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

As I have asked, tell me your realistic path to both people coexisting peacefully.

 

You don't see hope in the fact the peaceful coexistence takes compromise from both parties ? 

Mutual respect ?

Nearly 60 years on this planet has taught me that these things are the only real basis for lasting relationships on both personal and societal levels.

 

I just don't see how these two groups get there. I do see Gaza having better government.

[Gnarcore]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

I just don't see how these two groups get there. I do see Gaza having better government.

Not with the US butting in, sending in useless Kamala who is trying to shove the PA down the throats of Gaza & the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority is loathed and as corrupt as a Trump owned real estate company, a Biden family venture in Ukraine or war hawk, corporate toady Niki Haley...  I don't have time for this...I'll just end it there.